Aer Lingus Fleet/ Routes Discussion Pt 2 (ALL possible routes included)

L1011

Huge difference, but it wasn't due to a former J class seat - the front rows as-is *were* the J class seats, with the middle unsold just like Aerspace is; and basically every European short haul J except Aerspace on the A321N routes.

kevinandrew

Judging by their current fleet, the Iberia A319s would have had a seat pitch of 31" for euro business class, plus the middle seat kept empty, and 28" for the remaining economy seats.

In total EC-KEV (which became EI-EPR) had 135 seats in an all economy layout, EI-EPR ended up with 144 during its life at Aer Lingus so 9 seats were added. It's likely a row was squeezed in down the back adding 6 seats and the remaining 3 were added to row 1 which was only half a row at Iberia due to their galley size.

The Iberia layout is pretty much still the same today so you can see where the additional seats were added for Aer Lingus and why it was so much tighter down the back; http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Iberia/Iberia_Airbus_A319.php

L1011

I used to go to LGW quite frequently back then, take an early out and the long since cancelled late back; LGW base was still open for cabin crew at least so I got to know a few of them. Always an A319.

If I got the seats down the back I'd be practically crippled by landing, they were that tight. 194cm / 6'3.5 tall; which isn't really *that* tall now, I'd hate to be even slightly taller and suffer it.

Jack1985

L1011 wrote: »

I used to go to LGW quite frequently back then, take an early out and the long since cancelled late back; LGW base was still open for cabin crew at least so I got to know a few of them. Always an A319.

If I got the seats down the back I'd be practically crippled by landing, they were that tight. 194cm / 6'3.5 tall; which isn't really *that* tall now, I'd hate to be even slightly taller and suffer it.

An even nicer experience for the knees when the aircraft was hammered on to the runway on occasion.

I remember many moon's ago travelling on EZY from LGW to Zakynthos on an A319 being in the last row (felt even more cramped than the EI 319's), In an evac I'd have been classed as a Wheelchair Charlie.

imfml

It looks like EI staff feel it will need Government assistance to get to 2022 and are looking for support to send a message to politicians. If anyone uses Twitter here is a poll to show support for some aid.

https://twitter.com/croghansimon/status/1354918901092646915?s=21

Cookiemunster

As many have said on here previously. Until EI request aid they're not going to get any. As of yet they've not requested any aid.

Nijmegen

Be interesting to read IAGs report, but at Sept 30 they had €9.3bn in liquidity (of which €5bn was straight up cash). If EI isn't asking for aid it's because IAG reckon they don't need it yet and don't want another state backed equity/debt thing loaded on them. I think the question from some is more "Can we avoid cost base restructuring with Irish government assistance," which likewise might not be in IAGs interest. The airlines that survive the pandemic and thrive in the post-pandemic world are likely the ones who can successfully trade through and also take the opportunity to address their business model and cost base for the likely years ahead. State aid tends to come with major provisions around what you can and cannot do in that respect.

goingnowhere

Nijmegen wrote: »

Be interesting to read IAGs report, but at Sept 30 they had €9.3bn in liquidity (of which €5bn was straight up cash). If EI isn't asking for aid it's because IAG reckon they don't need it yet and don't want another state backed equity/debt thing loaded on them. I think the question from some is more "Can we avoid cost base restructuring with Irish government assistance," which likewise might not be in IAGs interest. The airlines that survive the pandemic and thrive in the post-pandemic world are likely the ones who can successfully trade through and also take the opportunity to address their business model and cost base for the likely years ahead. State aid tends to come with major provisions around what you can and cannot do in that respect.

Exactly, if you can trade through and not be lumped with political baggage go for it.

There will be a sliming down as fewer pilots/cabin crew required in the short/medium term once what is normal resumes as demand on business routes will be depressed and thats where the money was made.

EI's cost base was extremely good before this and on paper was improving and was the best in terms of ROI in IAG. The problem child is BA which is still living somewhat in legacy mode and not really sure what to do. BA will bleed badly owing to its emphasis on business travel.

Ryanair always a threat but O'Leary has a stack of MAX's on order (not clear if passengers will be lining up to fly them) he has to pay for and no way to offload his existing -800's as the market is awash with aircraft.

A321NEO will give EI a huge advantage on the TATL when things open up


It is both FR and EI's interest to keep clear but the game should be to push to help the DAA, so as to avoid any EU problems, zero landing fees for 2 years or something would be a help.

Tenger

goingnowhere wrote: »

Exactly, if you can trade through and not be lumped with political baggage go for it.

There will be a sliming down as fewer pilots/cabin crew required in the short/medium term once what is normal resumes as demand on business routes will be depressed and thats where the money was made..........

EI have so far offered voluntary redundancy and career breaks to their staff.
I’m guessing that the lack of layoffs so far is connected to the company’s acceptance of the TWSS/EWSS scheme?

Nijmegen

Tenger wrote: »

EI have so far offered voluntary redundancy and career breaks to their staff.
I’m guessing that the lack of layoffs so far is connected to the company’s acceptance of the TWSS/EWSS scheme?

I was reading an interview in the business post with a pilot at EI who claims his earnings were down 50% over last year despite flying for example the PPE missions. The state supports are designed to keep people attached to their employment so there haven’t really been layoffs in the traditional sense, despite hundreds of thousands effectively off work. It’s having a free hand to do what you need to do afterward that’ll be the trick.

basill

Its not a claim its reality. Also its greater than 50%. There was a 50% cut in gross salary but there are also variable elements of pay based on flying. If no flying then no variable pay.

Pat Dunne

Nijmegen wrote: »

I was reading an interview in the business post with a pilot at EI who claims his earnings were down 50% over last year despite flying for example the PPE missions. The state supports are designed to keep people attached to their employment so there haven’t really been layoffs in the traditional sense, despite hundreds of thousands effectively off work. It’s having a free hand to do what you need to do afterward that’ll be the trick.

So rather than earning €100K* a year for a Airbus Type Rated Pilot. He/She is earning €50K plus a year.
My heart bleeds for them!

* https://www.aerlingus.com/careers/careers-in-the-air/direct-entry-pilots/#/tab-0-direct-entry-pilot-programme

basill wrote: »

Its not a claim its reality. Also its greater than 50%. There was a 50% cut in gross salary but there are also variable elements of pay based on flying. If no flying then no variable pay.

50% cut of what exactly?

cson

Nijmegen wrote: »

Be interesting to read IAGs report, but at Sept 30 they had €9.3bn in liquidity (of which €5bn was straight up cash). If EI isn't asking for aid it's because IAG reckon they don't need it yet and don't want another state backed equity/debt thing loaded on them.

Bingo.

I think any outright support would require an equity concession, indeed the Government would be foolish if that wasn't a fundamental requirement.

Pat Dunne wrote: »

So rather than earning €100K* a year for a Airbus Type Rated Pilot. He/She is earning €50K plus a year.
My heart bleeds for them!

* https://www.aerlingus.com/careers/careers-in-the-air/direct-entry-pilots/#/tab-0-direct-entry-pilot-programme



50% cut of what exactly?

(1) That link shows 78.5k which includes 18k variable, so that's 60.5k basic.

(2) Do you realize the amount of debt most of these qualified pilots have taken on to get to this point?

(3) If you've built a life around a 6 figure income, its a massive impact to have that cut in half - what if BOI/AIB approved your mortgage on the basis of that income? Now you can't pay it through no fault of your own.

I don't doubt you're looking for a rise, posting something inflammatory like that in a forum which is frequented by the very person your heart bleeds for, but 50k is not a lot of money in Ireland these days. I'd link you COL indexes and housing costs but I doubt you'd have it in you to read.

Pat Dunne

cson wrote: »

(1) That link shows 78.5k which includes 18k variable, so that's 60.5k basic.

(2) Do you realize the amount of debt most of these qualified pilots have taken on to get to this point?

(3) If you've built a life around a 6 figure income, its a massive impact to have that cut in half - what if BOI/AIB approved your mortgage on the basis of that income? Now you can't pay it through no fault of your own.

I don't doubt you're looking for a rise, posting something inflammatory like that in a forum which is frequented by the very person your heart bleeds for, but 50k is not a lot of money in Ireland these days. I'd link you COL indexes and housing costs but I doubt you'd have it in you to read.

Again, I have no real sympathy.

They have a potential earning capacity over their career that far exceeds the average individual.
I have to say I enjoyed a good laugh at your comment of “building a life around a 6 figure income”. Ever hear of a rainy day? Well guess what, it’s currently lashing and that hefty 6 figure income should provide anyone with a half decent umbrella.

Your €50k remark caused me even further mirth, as the overwhelming majority of people in Ireland earn the average industrial wage of €37k and face COL and housing costs based on that figure.

However with over half a million people currently been forced to claim the Pandemic Unemployment Payment of €350 per week, getting by on that figure is causing genuine hardship for people from all walks of life.

Jack1985

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Again, I have no real sympathy.

Ah jog on, purposely posting inflammatory statements in this thread looking blatantly for a rise behind your keyboard the big warrior you are.

Ever hear of a rainy day? Well guess what, it’s currently lashing and that hefty 6 figure income should provide anyone with a decent umbrella.

Yeah I've heard of rainy 12 months+ of 50% reduced income funds alright.:rolleyes:

Pat Dunne

Jack1985 wrote: »

Ah jog on, purposely posting inflammatory statements in this thread looking blatantly for a rise behind your keyboard the big warrior you are.



Yeah I've heard of rainy 12 months+ of 50% reduced income funds alright.:rolleyes:

If reality is inflammatory to your mindset, so be it.
I’m sure the half a million plus, people on €350 per week, would be delighted to be earning “50% reduced income funds alright”. :rolleyes:

Locker10a

cson wrote: »

(2) Do you realize the amount of debt most of these qualified pilots have taken on to get to this point?

Didn’t EI pilots get offered a loan from the company to sort them out for this issue too

jucylucy

I have more sympathy for the cabin crew on a fraction of the wages who still haven’t been able to get their rightful social welfare entitlement as EI will not fill out their claim from correct ......since March last year!

Tenger

Settle down everyone. Lots of people from all walks of life are in trouble right no. The article was just used as an example, not to try to play a sympathy card.
No-one here is ignoring the plight of those on PUP/TWSS/EWSS over the last 10 months. An article about EI workers and their situation is quite suited yo this thread.

I personally would be screwed to have my income slashed by 50%. Even the most prudent saver would be hard pressed to have enough put away to cover a year.

Noxegon

I'm uneasy about some of the language I've seen in the petitions calling for government support for Aer Lingus.

Pre-pandemic there were 46 airlines serving Dublin Airport. That indicates that there's a market to be served, and that there will be again at some point.

Lots of businesses and people are struggling right now, and not just a privately-owned airline.

Lapmo_Dancer

Noxegon wrote: »

I'm uneasy about some of the language I've seen in the petitions calling for government support for Aer Lingus.

Pre-pandemic there were 46 airlines serving Dublin Airport. That indicates that there's a market to be served, and that there will be again at some point.

Lots of businesses and people are struggling right now, and not just a privately-owned airline.

Absolutely, when it’s a level playing field. But when the vast majority of those 46 airlines are in receipt of sector specific state aid in some form of another, things get a bit more complicated.

HTCOne

Exactly. Airlines that have lost hundreds of millions in recent years (Air France, Alitalia etc) have received state bailouts, whereas the successful airlines like EI and FR who make money and pay tax on their profits are weathering things on their own so far as a result of their successful business models. EU State Aid rules don’t mean a thing in reality, as the two first airlines I mentioned demonstrate every couple of years.

It cannot be overstated how many businesses in Ireland rely on competitively priced air connectivity, even just for freight.

bk

Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »

Absolutely, when it’s a level playing field. But when the vast majority of those 46 airlines are in receipt of sector specific state aid in some form of another, things get a bit more complicated.

On the other hand, such bailouts can come with lots of strings attached, that can make these airlines far less flexible and far harder for them to respond to the changes coming.

Ryanair and IAG (in particular AerLingus) seem to be in a pretty economically healthy place and seem very well positioned to come roaring out into the post Covid19 world and to grow and dominate as smaller and weaker airlines are killed off and can't respond quickly enough to new market forces.

The best thing governments can do for airlines is get vaccines into people as quickly as possible and of course continue to support employees out of work until then.

Nijmegen

Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »

Absolutely, when it’s a level playing field. But when the vast majority of those 46 airlines are in receipt of sector specific state aid in some form of another, things get a bit more complicated.

HTCOne wrote: »

Exactly. Airlines that have lost hundreds of millions in recent years (Air France, Alitalia etc) have received state bailouts, whereas the successful airlines like EI and FR who make money and pay tax on their profits are weathering things on their own so far as a result of their successful business models. EU State Aid rules don’t mean a thing in reality, as the two first airlines I mentioned demonstrate every couple of years.

It cannot be overstated how many businesses in Ireland rely on competitively priced air connectivity, even just for freight.

These businesses aren't viable partly because they can't properly reform because they are basically run by rent seekers who know there's a bailout at any trouble and resist any and all proper reforms. Air France / KLM is a great case in point, lot of talk of the Dutch taking their ball and going home because Air France can't get its s*** together.

Neither EI via IAG nor Ryanair want state aid, it ties your hands behind your back while spoon feeding you when you're capable of getting back to the table and shoveling up all the grub you can lay your hands on when the kitchen is back to serving as normal.

Lapmo_Dancer

Nijmegen wrote: »

These businesses aren't viable partly because they can't properly reform because they are basically run by rent seekers who know there's a bailout at any trouble and resist any and all proper reforms. Air France / KLM is a great case in point, lot of talk of the Dutch taking their ball and going home because Air France can't get its s*** together.

Neither EI via IAG nor Ryanair want state aid, it ties your hands behind your back while spoon feeding you when you're capable of getting back to the table and shoveling up all the grub you can lay your hands on when the kitchen is back to serving as normal.

Depends on your definition of state aid. KPMG certainly consider the sector specific supports received by BA, Iberia and Vueling from their respective governments as just that and even Ryanair were happy to accept what was on offer from the UK government.

IngazZagni

Ryanair are repaying that UK loan in full this March. It’s really not comparable to the bailouts the likes of Air France and Lufthansa have received.

Tenger

Just deleted 2 replies on the issue I addressed yesterday.
Let's try to stay on topic.

kevinandrew

The next A321LR, EI-LRF, in full colours at Hamburg.



A321nx AerLingus EI-LRF by Tobias Gudat, on Flickr

Van.Bosch

kevinandrew wrote: »

The next A321LR, EI-LRF, in full colours at Hamburg.



A321nx AerLingus EI-LRF by Tobias Gudat, on Flickr

12 months ago these couldn’t come fast enough, now you’d wonder when it will actually be needed.

What a brutal year for Aer Lingus and Aviation in general.

kevinandrew

The next one isn't far behind either!

'LRH has been spotted as well, it's painted with its test registration applied and sitting outside one of the hangers in Hamburg. I presume 'LRG is also somewhere along the production line which would mean the original order of eight aircraft is almost done. Next up, the A321XLR in in a couple of years...

Worth keeping an eye out for 'LRG and 'LRH as these are likely to be the 'Aer Lingus UK' registered aircraft, although its gone very quiet on that front since the New Year.