Aer Lingus Fleet/ Routes Discussion Pt 2 (ALL possible routes included)

x567

basill wrote: »

The island hopping was typically from the legacy airlines servicing the "colonies" eg: BA, KLM. There would be long standing freight, premium traffic and diplomatic ties making it profitable. Bucket and spade charter operators would fly point to point rotating back through Europe and alternating through the various islands.

I’ve been travelling to that part of the world for many years and have seen airlines and routes and frequencies change numerous times; and from what I’ve seen I really doubt the ‘colonies’ argument holds true re profitability. The islands served and frequencies seem to be much more related to tourism than anything else. And the ‘island hopping’ has included BA, VS, Monarch, Condor and XL...

Kcormahs

Leo Varadkar just a few minutes ago (Dáil):

“To say very clearly, Aer Lingus will not be allowed to fail. It is already receiving substantial financial support from government. Discussions are underway on further support for the company so it is there when we need it again,”

They won’t be saying much before IAG results are announced I would imagine. Maybe another loan from the ISIF? Can’t see a direct cash injection as the government has no ownership in the airline. Michael O’Leary will have to equally get a fair enough support I would say



https://www.google.pt/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL1N2KO1NM

Locker10a

Kcormahs wrote: »

Leo Varadkar just a few minutes ago (Dáil):

“To say very clearly, Aer Lingus will not be allowed to fail. It is already receiving substantial financial support from government. Discussions are underway on further support for the company so it is there when we need it again,”

They won’t be saying much before IAG results are announced I would imagine. Maybe another loan from the ISIF? Can’t see a direct cash injection as the government has no ownership in the airline. Michael O’Leary will have to equally get a fair enough support I would say



https://www.google.pt/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL1N2KO1NM

“The sad truth is that the way things are going now, it could be a very long time before we see aviation recover... Saving all jobs and saving all routes may not be possible."

That’s for sure

Kcormahs

Locker10a wrote: »

“The sad truth is that the way things are going now, it could be a very long time before we see aviation recover... Saving all jobs and saving all routes may not be possible."

That’s for sure

Sadly yes. Hopefully they will offer voluntary options before forcing people to go though

Tenger

Kcormahs wrote: »

Sadly yes. Hopefully they will offer voluntary options before forcing people to go though

Already been offered/currently on offer. The catering section was outsourced this time last year.
I think someone posted recently that career breaks are also being offered.

But hard to see much uptake with the overall economic situation. Hard decision p leave a job when so many businesses in the hospitality sector are shut down or facing closure.

We have already seen some routes being cut, Miami and Minneapolis for example.
Double daily Chicago/Boston and daily LAX might be reduced.

Kcormahs

Tenger wrote: »

Already been offered/currently on offer. The catering section was outsourced this time last year.
I think someone posted recently that career breaks are also being offered.

But hard to see much uptake with the overall economic situation. Hard decision p leave a job when so many businesses in the hospitality sector are shut down or facing closure.

We have already seen some routes being cut, Miami and Minneapolis for example.
Double daily Chicago/Boston and daily LAX might be reduced.

Thanks for sharing that info Tanger, but I believe voluntary severance was capped for people with over 24 years in the company, not giving the option to many who had applied with a shorter lenght of service in the airline. Also voluntary severance for groundstaff was only offered in Shannon from my understanding. So its not down (yet!) to « not enough took it » but to who was and wasnt refused

1123heavy

I see now Varadkar has promised to 'save' aer lingus everyone on instagram, facebook and linkedin are almost opening the champagne bottles and celebrating

What about stobart, ryanair, cityjet? or do their staff not matter?

The whole 'recover irish aviation' thing was rotten from the start, should have been renamed 'recover aer lingus' because that's all it was ever about

LiamaDelta

1123heavy wrote: »

I see now Varadkar has promised to 'save' aer lingus everyone on instagram, facebook and linkedin are almost opening the champagne bottles and celebrating

What about stobart, ryanair, cityjet? or do their staff not matter?

The whole 'recover irish aviation' thing was rotten from the start, should have been renamed 'recover aer lingus' because that's all it was ever about

Don't confuse a populist instagram post with reality. Aer Lingus is a private company the same as all of the others you have mentioned. Anything that is offered to one has to be offered to all, within reason.

kona

1123heavy wrote: »

I see now Varadkar has promised to 'save' aer lingus everyone on instagram, facebook and linkedin are almost opening the champagne bottles and celebrating

What about stobart, ryanair, cityjet? or do their staff not matter?

The whole 'recover irish aviation' thing was rotten from the start, should have been renamed 'recover aer lingus' because that's all it was ever about

What i took from that was that aer lingus wouldnt be allowed fail, ie they will pick and choose what routes are of a strategic nature etc in return for government support which means a much smaller Aer Lingus and all that downsizing would entail.

basill

1123heavy wrote: »

I see now Varadkar has promised to 'save' aer lingus everyone on instagram, facebook and linkedin are almost opening the champagne bottles and celebrating

What about stobart, ryanair, cityjet? or do their staff not matter?

The whole 'recover irish aviation' thing was rotten from the start, should have been renamed 'recover aer lingus' because that's all it was ever about

Saving a business that employs Irish citizens, pays taxes here etc etc is a very different value proposition to one that offshores its workers, uses contract staff and enjoys the benefits of social dumping and the gig economy.

Not that I agree with your argument that only EI is being targeted for a remedy package. I would say it was Leo the leak spouting with an unfortunate choice of words.

IngazZagni

People need to understand the context. The save Aer Lingus comments come from questions from Sinn Fein that specifically asked about Aer Lingus.
There's also a big difference between state support for the company and state support for the staff. The two are not necessarily the same. Indeed Ryanair are actively engaged in lawsuits against the EU over state aid so it's of no surprise that they won't be considered for any state support here. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be more direct support for the staff in these industries and there definitely should be I feel.

LXFlyer

The context also includes the maintenance of the air freight connectivity that Aer Lingus provides by way of the belly cargo to and from Ireland - that's pretty important to the economy too.

LiamaDelta

IngazZagni wrote: »

People need to understand the context. The save Aer Lingus comments come from questions from Sinn Fein that specifically asked about Aer Lingus.
There's also a big difference between state support for the company and state support for the staff. The two are not necessarily the same. Indeed Ryanair are actively engaged in lawsuits against the EU over state aid so it's of no surprise that they won't be considered for any state support here. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be more direct support for the staff in these industries and there definitely should be I feel.

You're mixing up two arguments. Just because they are engaged in lawsuits does not mean they won't be considered (that in itself would be illegal and would mean more lawsuits).

What Ryanair does is they accuse governments of 'illegal state aid' afterwards. Even though Ryanair themselves didn't need/want the state 'aid'/help. It's their way of putting pressure on competitors. We don't need it but also we don't want our competitors to get it.

Kcormahs

LiamaDelta wrote: »

You're mixing up two arguments. Just because they are engaged in lawsuits does not mean they won't be considered (that in itself would be illegal and would mean more lawsuits).

What Ryanair does is they accuse governments of 'illegal state aid' afterwards. Even though Ryanair themselves didn't need/want the state 'aid'/help. It's their way of putting pressure on competitors. We don't need it but also we don't want our competitors to get it.

Thats correct. For Ryanair all Lufthansa, Air France, KLM etc could go bust, even if that means huge job losses, connectivity cuts along with cargo etc, once they could take up a good share of their short haul market and get their passengers/business.

goingnowhere

To be fair the level of support given to LH is beyond insane.

Kcormahs

goingnowhere wrote: »

To be fair the level of support given to LH is beyond insane.

Not as much as Airfrance-klm also Lufthansa group is bigger than them. But ok, so what would be your alternative? Letting all these airlines go bust due to covid19 and Ryanair fills their market share on Shorthaul and lets forget long haul and cargo, not even mentioning the wave of job losses it would lead to?

goingnowhere

The real question is the underlying business sound and Ryanair would be better to pursue the line of given money to businesses which even under normal trading conditions would be poor performers. Its clear EI and FR had strong balance sheets starting 2020 and were well capitalised.

Air France has been a disaster for years, Alitalia a disaster, SAS has had a few close calls.

The LH deal is a back subsidy for Airbus, any reasonable airline would defer cancel orders to free up capital, but LH is to accept all aircraft on order, A320, A350 which guess what are all made in Hamburg...

Kcormahs

goingnowhere wrote: »

The real question is the underlying business sound and Ryanair would be better to pursue the line of given money to businesses which even under normal trading conditions would be poor performers. Its clear EI and FR had strong balance sheets starting 2020 and were well capitalised.

Air France has been a disaster for years, Alitalia a disaster, SAS has had a few close calls.

The LH deal is a back subsidy for Airbus, any reasonable airline would defer cancel orders to free up capital, but LH is to accept all aircraft on order, A320, A350 which guess what are all made in Hamburg...

Again could you answer my post then, whats the alternative? Let them all go bust?
Btw Air France had profits in 2019 not massively but it did. Same as LH reported profits too. I agree with you on Alitalia.
I think you are just looking at whoever was doing best before pre covid and focusing on Ryanair who have: no cargo, no long haul and much more controversy on obligations

Marcusm

Kcormahs wrote: »

Not as much as Airfrance-klm also Lufthansa group is bigger than them. But ok, so what would be your alternative? Letting all these airlines go bust due to covid19 and Ryanair fills their market share on Shorthaul and lets forget long haul and cargo, not even mentioning the wave of job losses it would lead to?

If it was IAG/BA then the answer would be that the company would be put into administration which would result in a haircut being imposed on lessors and lenders. There might also be changes in the terms and conditions of employees but as BA (and EI) have been fairly active on restructuring employment terms over the years, I doubt there would be as much scope as at AF/KLM.

Tenger

1123heavy wrote: »

........
The whole 'recover irish aviation' thing was rotten from the start, should have been renamed 'recover aer lingus' because that's all it was ever about

I have to grudgingly agree. It was very EI focused, probably a factor of it being pushed by IALPA.

But I did watch on video that did feature modern footage of FR aircraft and staff. So there was certainly recognition/acknowledgement. But any historical footage was all EI.
(Using Gabriel's Oboe was a bad decision in my mind, in Irish pysche its associated with EI)

I personally would expect and hope that any Govt assistance was for the entire sector rather than just one airline.
A statement by Varadkar in order to fend off questions in the Dail isn't worth much

basill

Look I get the sentiment. But before you throw to much sympathy the way of a certain loco because of a music choice and film editing lets consider some facts. FR have approximately 50% permanent pilots and 50% contractors - a mix of fixed and floating in Dublin. The permanents as I understand it are now effectively on hourly rates/pay as you fly deals since covid. The contractors would have little connection with Ireland - think jumpseat in the night before and avail of an airport B&B before departing for home wherever that is at the end of your 5 days work. The first officers have all paid to be there and will be on some form of reduced pay training contract initially which as I understand it takes a few years to be rid of before they start earning a half decent salary (and pay tax). As to union membership the permanents are mostly in IALPA and the contractors would keep their heads down. Cabin crew AFAIK pay to do their initial course and then the bulk of their earnings are from a share of sales. Not sure if they are unionised or not but I assume not. Ground staff are mainly third party, some engineers perhaps probably required to be on the books for the IAA. Head office staff no doubt permanents but most would be back office types and probably paid the square root of not a lot.

So as a business model its great when a pandemic hits as the tap can be shut off relatively quick on the payroll front. And the contractor model is great as it means you get a mobile workforce. And if they weren't necessarily contributing a whole lot to the local economy before the pandemic then they sure as hell won't be now.

The relative payscales are all freely available on the interweb (ppjn) and there is no secret about them. A longhaul top of scale skipper would pay enough Irish tax (pre covid) per year to cover off the top of my head 2-3 nurses or a nurse and a teacher to put it in context. And then they have their disposable going back into the local economy. There was a figure thrown around a while back of Fingal Council generating something mad like 40% of its revenues from the airport. I think Swords might be up there as one of the largest towns in the country but don't quote me on that.

No idea if IAG pay similar levels of tax but from the attached it would indicate an effective income tax rate of 3.2% for Ryanair.

https://stockanalysis.com/stocks/ryaay/financials/

Now I don't know a whole lot about Stobart or Cityjet except from what I read in the papers like you. The latter would appear to have offshored some jobs to Scandanavia and let a bunch of people go in Ireland at the start of covid. The former has lost its main contract and is surviving with a skeleton staff running some PSO contracts and is up for sale. Hopefully they will get picked up in the new start up taking over the routes.

So yes lets share the love around to all the Irish airlines but do bear in mind that there could be very different outcomes for the economy and connectivity depending on how it all plays out.

BZ

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/companies/arid-40231562.html

EI looking at moving more aircraft to the UK. Is this a scare tactic to the government in light of the planned road map announcement tomorrow and no sign of international travel until well into H2 or genuine?

Jamie2k9

BZ wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/companies/arid-40231562.html

EI looking at moving more aircraft to the UK. Is this a scare tactic to the government in light of the planned road map announcement tomorrow and no sign of international travel until well into H2 or genuine?

Its possible but pure speculation at best not even a source within EI or IAG.

Apparently its 3 at MAN not 4 as previously indicated if it all goes ahead.

Tenger

BZ wrote: »

...........
EI looking at moving more aircraft to the UK. Is this a scare tactic to the government in light of the planned road map announcement tomorrow and no sign of international travel until well into H2 or genuine?

The proposed MAN always had scope for 4 aircraft.
2 of the current A330s and 2 new A321LR were mentioned. The phrasing in the report makes it seems as if its being increased from 2 to 4.

Jamie2k9

Tenger wrote: »

The proposed MAN always had scope for 4 aircraft.
2 of the current A330s and 2 new A321LR were mentioned. The phrasing in the report makes it seems as if its being increased from 2 to 4.

Supposed to have returned slots for the second A330.

Sexual Chocolate

Seen that EI-EIN (I think) flew out to Bordeaux yesterday. Storage or maintenance anyone know ?

Tenger

Sexual Chocolate wrote: »

Seen that EI-EIN (I think) flew out to Bordeaux yesterday. Storage or maintenance anyone know ?

Probably maintenence. It's the usual time for annual checks.
There have been several such ferry flights over the last 5-6 weeks. Chance are a different A330 was flown back 2-3 hours later.

markc91

Tenger wrote: »

Probably maintenence. It's the usual time for annual checks.
There have been several such ferry flights over the last 5-6 weeks. Chance are a different A330 was flown back 2-3 hours later.

Actually seen an ei330 land around 1.45 yesterday afternoon so that was probably it

California Dreamer

basill wrote: »

Look I get the sentiment.

Just one point and I totally get what you are saying about levels of tax etc paid in this country but what about the wider indirect work that all the airlines that serve Dublin provide?

Everything from the suppliers of Jet A1 down to the hundreds of sandwiches that were sold every day.

Im not arguing the toss with you just saying that there is more to the contractor that flies in for 1 night and off they go.

kevinandrew

New CEO;

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/lynne-embleton-named-as-new-aer-lingus-chief-executive-1.4495168?mode=amp

Lynne Embleton joins from IAG Cargo.