The entire Green argument for Ireland decreasing its C02 emissions is bogus

Truthvader

Green Party = Tax Party. Fine if you don't work.

A lot of their policies are based on a kind of mincing jealously - particlarly against car owners. Their public transport policy is driven by a desire to punish people with cars - particularly nice ones. If you want public transport; build an underground. The luas was only pushed because it caused more congestion.

Also champions of ****e cars that only last about four years. How many Fiat Pandas still on the road? Zero. How many Porche 911's ? 80% of all ever built. So which is more sustainable?

Shefwedfan

Truthvader wrote: »

Green Party = Tax Party. Fine if you don't work.

A lot of their policies are based on a kind of mincing jealously - particlarly against car owners. Their public transport policy is driven by a desire to punish people with cars - particularly nice ones. If you want public transport; build an underground. The luas was only pushed because it caused more congestion.

Also champions of ****e cars that only last about four years. How many Fiat Pandas still on the road? Zero. How many Porche 911's ? 80% of all ever built. So which is more sustainable?

I think you also missed the conversation with Pat Kenny

Maybe, just maybe, listen to what they say before quoting tired old stuff from 20 years ago

Truthvader

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think you also missed the conversation with Pat Kenny

Maybe, just maybe, listen to what they say before quoting tired old stuff from 20 years ago

So are we building an underground or just increasing taxes and clamping cars?

Fred Cryton

n97 mini wrote: »

You haven't thought that through. At the moment the emissions fines are being covered by our government, so the price of beef isn't going up. If that cost is placed on consumers in other countries, boom, price of Irish beef skyrockets and the market collapses.

No, you haven't understood. Allocate Irelands agricultural production to the consumer nations when calculating C02 per capita. In other words if we export beef to Germany, then the C02 from that beef production should be included in Germanys C02 per capita, not Irelands. Because the beef will have to be produced somewhere, the environmental cost comes from consuming the product. It's not a direct tax on Irish beef, as you seem to think. It just means Germanys C02 per capita would be higher, hence they would need to make greater cuts somewhere.

This is all about creating a fair metric (C02 per capita) from which countries can reduce their emissions.

n97 mini

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No, you haven't understood. Allocate Irelands agricultural production to the consumer nations when calculating C02 per capita. In other words if we export beef to Germany, then the C02 from that beef production should be included in Germanys C02 per capita, not Irelands. Because the beef will have to be produced somewhere, the environmental cost comes from consuming the product. It's not a direct tax on Irish beef, as you seem to think. It just means Germanys C02 per capita would be higher, hence they would need to make greater cuts somewhere.

This is all about creating a fair metric (C02 per capita) from which countries can reduce their emissions.

You're assuming the German govt will just add it to the overall tax bill, rather than target the products responsible. That's flawed thinking. We're targeting individual fossil fuels, so no reason to think that beef will just be lumped in with carrots in a revised system (and nor should it be).

Long story short, we're producing enough beef to feed more than 40 million people, while importing a lot of pretty basic foods. That's not balanced, or sustainable.

nigeldaniel

I have just started to think that all the dislike for the greens is coming from the fact that the party has done so well at rebuilding itself in the past few years. SF and the ultraleft don't like the competition I suspect.

Shefwedfan

nigeldaniel wrote: »

I have just started to think that all the dislike for the greens is coming from the fact that the party has done so well at rebuilding itself in the past few years. SF and the ultraleft don't like the competition I suspect.

If you look at the last two elections the party on the move is Greens.



SF got hammered at the local elections and nothing has changed in the few months between, even SF didn't predict a good election. The revolt vote helped them.

Shefwedfan

Truthvader wrote: »

So are we building an underground or just increasing taxes and clamping cars?

Listen to Pat Kenny

Fuascailteoir

n97 mini wrote: »

You make it sound like there is no alternative. I did notice that a lot of the veg we get in supermarkets is grown in Holland. Tomatoes, onions, carrots etc. The climate here is pretty much the same, so why are we importing so much Dutch veg? (The Dutch are probably scratching their heads when they see Irish beef on the shelves too). I'm all for incentives to change btw.



You haven't thought that through. At the moment the emissions fines are being covered by our government, so the price of beef isn't going up. If that cost is placed on consumers in other countries, boom, price of Irish beef skyrockets and the market collapses.



I know a few small beef farmers. They're basically surviving on the dole with the farming aspect just about breaking even. It's more about maintaining a public face by saying they're farmers, rather than saying they're on the dole.

Dutch produce is on our shelves due to investment in agricultural research many decades ago. They became masters of production and the export of that knowledge.

As for the greens, Ryan is never going to be acceptable to many people. They should be able to harness a large rural vote but are now perceived to be antagonistic to those outside of urban areas. If they had a new leader and pushed sustainable Agri-forestry plans then they could expand their support base into rural hinterlands. There needs to be a new focus on bringing farmers into biodiversity programmes and shaping supports into that area

BarryD2

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

These tree farms are not native to Ireland and don't support our biodiversity, the opposite in fact. Take a walk around one of these forests and then take a walk around one of the few patches of natural forest that we have and you'll see what I mean. So I'm pointing out the fact that the only reason we've seen a growth in forest cover percentage in Ireland is because of these tree farms. They may soak up CO2 but they don't offer much to wildlife and biodiversity.

Yes I visit plenty of forests and woodlands and I appreciate your point. But it's a separate issue - the issue at hand is reducing carbon use by 7% annually. Sitka Spruce and other fast growing trees surely excel in this aspect?

ednwireland

i would like to see subsidsed retrofit of insulation, electricity sell back through the grid, actually put policies that allow people to reduce their energy useage and energy bills. as opposed to defending the esb monopoly.
but as far as i can see (from the headlines) is increase taxes but if you want to reduce useage youre on your owm.

i know one out of several poeople who has air to water heating that is happy with it. seems to work on new builds but doesnt as a retrofit.

Shefwedfan

Fuascailteoir wrote: »

Dutch produce is on our shelves due to investment in agricultural research many decades ago. They became masters of production and the export of that knowledge.

As for the greens, Ryan is never going to be acceptable to many people. They should be able to harness a large rural vote but are now perceived to be antagonistic to those outside of urban areas. If they had a new leader and pushed sustainable Agri-forestry plans then they could expand their support base into rural hinterlands. There needs to be a new focus on bringing farmers into biodiversity programmes and shaping supports into that area

Fact is some people will never change. Look at the amount of posts on here complaining abiout the Green party but have not read the manifesto or even listened to an interview from Ryan


Bit hard to change people opinion when they dont want it to be changed


The Greens got screwed by my own party FF after the crash, they got blamed for everything. People are still stuck in that frame of mind and don't even know why they believe it

Thelonious Monk

BarryD2 wrote: »

Yes I visit plenty of forests and woodlands and I appreciate your point. But it's a separate issue - the issue at hand is reducing carbon use by 7% annually. Sitka Spruce and other fast growing trees surely excel in this aspect?

The 7% isn't their only goal, they wish to address the biodiversity crisis in Ireland too and sitka spruce hinders this doesn't help, regardless of carbon. Reforestation with natural species would make more sense, sitka is purely for profit.

n97 mini

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The Greens got screwed by my own party FF after the crash, they got blamed for everything. People are still stuck in that frame of mind and don't even know why they believe it

The only thing I blame the greens for was the mass dieselisation of the private motor fleet. I blame FF for everything else

Shefwedfan

n97 mini wrote: »

The only thing I blame the greens for was the mass dieselisation of the private motor fleet. I blame FF for everything else

This I have an issue with,



THe move to diesel was based on the information provided which said it was cleaner. This was based on the NEDC test which was run in Europe, not in Ireland. This has since been shown as having a number of issues plus all the manufacturers cheated to get lower scores.



The new tax did not change a car prior to 2008 tax, so if you paid 500 quid in 2007 then you paid 500 quid in 2008. So the car you bought didnt suddenly become more expensive.



Also the change did not suddenly change your driving, if in 2007 petrol was best fuel then in 2008 petrol was the best fuel.


We had people swapping a 2007 car to a 2008 to save 200 quid on tax. People going out buying a diesel car which cost thousands more than the petrol because the tax was 100 quid cheaper. It was crazy. I don;'t think anyone in 2008 could have predicted that would happen.



Only in last 12 months have you sen petrol cars come into dealers. Before this you went into VW etc and they had zero petrols in stock.

suicide_circus

Truthvader wrote: »

Green Party...

A lot of their policies are based on a kind of mincing jealously

nice turn of phrase there

Shefwedfan

ednwireland wrote: »

i would like to see subsidsed retrofit of insulation, electricity sell back through the grid, actually put policies that allow people to reduce their energy useage and energy bills. as opposed to defending the esb monopoly.
but as far as i can see (from the headlines) is increase taxes but if you want to reduce useage youre on your owm.

i know one out of several poeople who has air to water heating that is happy with it. seems to work on new builds but doesnt as a retrofit.

Insulation is subsidsed already, via the SEAI. A scheme that does need a complete overhaul as it is just a rip off by tradespeople.

n97 mini

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This I have an issue with,



THe move to diesel was based on the information provided which said it was cleaner.

Based on one single pollutant: CO2. The dogs in the streets (literally!) knew there was more coming out the tailpipe than just that.

Shefwedfan

n97 mini wrote: »

Based on one single pollutant: CO2. The dogs in the streets (literally!) knew there was more coming out the tailpipe than just that.

Really? bit of hindsight here because when it broke in dieselgate it was WW news. Did you know?

James Brown

We need to make major changes, but I don't think the Greens are the party for it. Some good people with nice intentions but a sniff of power and they're away.

n97 mini

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Really? bit of hindsight here because when it broke in dieselgate it was WW news. Did you know?

I actually did, and posted about it many times in the motors forum back in 2008. EU diesel emissions standards have always been the lowest in the western world, and even back in 2008 various reports had estimated the numbers of deaths in various countries from diesel pollution.

Shefwedfan

n97 mini wrote: »

I actually did, and posted about it many times in the motors forum back in 2008. EU diesel emissions standards have always been the lowest in the western world, and even back in 2008 various reports had estimated the numbers of deaths in various countries from diesel pollution.

I never heard anything


Even the EU never found out, it was only after millions of these cars got sold in the US and they ran tests it was figured out what was happening. So even the US etc didn't know for years.



I am not doubting you but just interested to know if these reports where available?

n97 mini

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I never heard anything


Even the EU never found out, it was only after millions of these cars got sold in the US and they ran tests it was figured out what was happening. So even the US etc didn't know for years.



I am not doubting you but just interested to know if these reports where available?

You didn't hear anything because no-one was talking about the downsides. Everyone thought it was the magic bullet: lower CO2 and therefore "cleaner" with better economy and the Greens gave us chape tax to incentivise it. More money in your pocket, what's not to like!

It's hard now to find the reports from back then as now google mostly shows the billions of reports in the more recent years. But here's one from 2006 dealing with diesel trains specifically. It cites EPA reports for total deaths from PM and separates out the train specific deaths. If I searched a bit longer I'd probably find the old EPA reports too. Iirc, the UK did a lot of research too, and they have figures going back to 1970 I think.

The dieselgate scandal only really blew up because there was nothing that VW could do to fix the cars in the US to ever make them legal there, and had to buy them all back and scrap them. Then class actions etc. To make them EU compliant they just had to fit a plastic pipe inside the exhausts.

Zebra3

Fred Cryton wrote: »

We won't be eating less meat, trust me. If anything, all the evidence points to increased global consumption of meat. As poor countries become richer and enter the middle class, one of the first things that happens is their meat consumption goes way up. Once they can afford it, turns out they like it!


So production will happen, you seem to just want to transfer production off this island, which is insane.

We will be eating less meat.

Meat takes up much large volumes of water to produce food than its' vegetable equivalent.

And the globe is suffering from water shortages.

Leonard Hofstadter

Some people may decide to eat less meat, and good for them, but I most certainly will not be. I believe in supporting our farmers, more importantly I like the taste of it.

RobbingBandit

If there's anything about this modern era of thinking I hate most it's the nonsense concept of collective guilt. People like the Green Party disturb me to my core the proposed implementation won't fix what has happened and any desired effects won't be worthwhile in our lifetime the hubris of these people is astounding.

Shefwedfan

RobbingBandit wrote: »

If there's anything about this modern era of thinking I hate most it's the nonsense concept of collective guilt. People like the Green Party disturb me to my core the proposed implementation won't fix what has happened and any desired effects won't be worthwhile in our lifetime the hubris of these people is astounding.

The shut down because of covid has shown how quick the air cleans up

Not saying we can have the same shut down long term but making changes now will improve the quality of life from you and your family

You not think so?

RobbingBandit

No I don't as China India Brazil and many other emerging economies in Africa can't or won't make those changes on a global scale so why are we to suffer so these do goodies can feel good about themselves, it's futile unless everyone does their part and not even equally just we can't pick up the slack while others keep the status quo.

Thelonious Monk

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

Some people may decide to eat less meat, and good for them, but I most certainly will not be. I believe in supporting our farmers, more importantly I like the taste of it.

The farmers, custodians of the countryside, who believe the only thing on this island should be livestock, this is f*cking sickening, and I bet no one will be prosecuted, same with the fires they start, they are untouchable

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0512/1138015-calls-for-wildlife-crime-unit-after-buzzard-poisoning/

n97 mini

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The farmers, custodians of the countryside, who believe the only thing on this island should be livestock, this is f*cking sickening, and I bet no one will be prosecuted, same with the fires they start, they are untouchable

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0512/1138015-calls-for-wildlife-crime-unit-after-buzzard-poisoning/

Hard to know what happened there. Carbofuran is a pesticide, use in the EU is illegal, but there is a slight possibility the buzzards (for such a beautiful bird, why do they have such a shítty name) weren't the target.

OTOH, there is Round Up, which is widely used by farmers, and still legal, just about.