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Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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  • Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭Calculator123


    I despair. RIP to this poor family.


    "Incident"...."Collision"

    We have to stop the madness and carnage on our roads.




  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Is there anything to be said for another stony faced appeal from the RSA with an Assistant Commissioner of Gardai parked on the cycle lane in the background?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,105 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk



    Ok if even Spain are doing this kind of thing the planet is 100% finished. I've cycled around that part of Spain a fair bit and it's really good generally but now these populist dickheads are going to ruin it all. Going backwards in Barcelona too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,608 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    This summer just gets worse... the young kids on the way their debs... the young kids on leaving cert results night... and now someone has lost their three year old child and both parents in a split second. It's an absolute tragedy and the elephant in the room just gets ignored. When is the right time to have an adult conversation about it? It's like the worse things get the more society just accepts that this is the way things have to be. And it's only when you use the roads as a walker/ cyclist/ runner etc. - basically for anything other than driving - that you get a sense of how crazy it is to share that space with modern drivers - the size of the vehicles, the power of the vehicles, the number of vehicles, the speed of the vehicles. Taking bends on secondary roads at full speed just because the limit is 80kmph... not a hope of knowing what's around the bend, whether there's a walker hugging the verge... all in a rush for what?

    I can only imagine the grief that people who lose family members in an incident like this must feel. I don't know if I'd cope. And yet on we'll plough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,212 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    On the topic of being a runner/walker on the road, I had an interesting experience during the summer. I was staying in rural Ireland with the stereotypical Irish local roads with no footpath, mostly holiday homes type area. When running I take the usual run/walk on the right facing oncoming traffic but when coming to a sharp or blind bend I'd switch to the other side so both I and drivers will have a better view of each other.

    Without exception every car I met head on would slow right down and give me additional space, but only when facing them. When I was with my back to them due to me switching to the other side to view around a bend, I was close passed, with little reduction in speed, every single time, close enough to voice my disproval through their windows.

    Interestingly, at home where I have similar roads, I don't experience that. Might be because drivers have the assumption that I'm a local and know me, whereas in the previous example most I'd say were on holidays themselves.

    Maybe we need to take the approach that some creatures have through evolution and stick google eyes to the back of our heads, otherwise some drivers just don't see and respect us as a person.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,379 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Well I've taken to holding my phone when walking on the rural road to the footpath as if I'm recording. You can actually see some people driving cop the phone, and then brake and wait to give a safe passing distance/ crawl past. Nothing will change until their is a fear of being caught/ convicted.

    It's OT, but I really feel a lot of the "active travel" budget would be better spent on footpaths on roads than greenways. I get ribbon development etc etc, but most villages don't even have footpaths to the village limits.



  • Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭Calculator123


    Yes another death today. Horrifically sad. Children should be safe outside their own homes. The car was just minding its own business was it!

    "Gardaí say the girl was seriously injured in the collision, which involved a car, in the Fairgreen Estate area in Portlaoise at 1.15pm this afternoon."




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,624 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Well..... the way the climate is going there, it will be too hot to cycle anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭Calculator123




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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    Would have loved to take one of the "cycle lanes cause traffic congestion" and "hold up ambulance" brigade on my bike commute this morning. Schools back, so it means the local roads around me all clogged with cars - virtual solid 2km tail back from Myos pub in Castleknock back beyond Castleknock COllege



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,736 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    While I get the sentiment, people have lost friends and family and while not your intention, some may see the referring to them as numbers on a bingo card as a tad insensitive.

    These tragedies need to be talked about, and we should not be silent because of the concern for feelings but language is important and this Red Top type of language isn't helpful in my opinion. Tell the truth, we don't need to be crass.

    This year, thanks to the way the Irish population in general uses roads, 125 people (and it will be a lot more by the end of the year) are never going to meet their friends again, some are never going to go to school, some will never finish another days work, some will never hug their grandchildren again, some will never have children, some will never again feel the ecstasy of celebrating a big occasion (some never got the chance to experience one) and so on.

    This and the tremendous affect on the what will be thousands around them to various degrees.

    Sadly, people will leave their funerals and drive home in a fashion that may be similar to how the tragedies occurred because that is how bad things are in general that many just don't realise what they are doing. Even the Gardai are coming out supporting a reduction in the speed limit in rural areas but even if it happens, without enforcement, it is pointless.

    We have the technology and capability to put automatic detection across a wide area in Ireland and yet, Eamon is simply giving token mouth pieces to the Cabinet. It should be taken out of government hands, given to a committee or think tank and say, forget the cost, figure out what changes we need to make to reduce road fatalities immediately and then implement them.

    Personally, average speed cameras, auto mobile phone use detection and similar would put a huge dent in these issues in a few months. On the M50 yesterday, I would say phone use was at 20%, but no sign of a garda car, a camera or anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,624 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Speed is the big one really, nothing else.

    I know mobile phones in the hand happens an awful lot; but for me, speed is the really big thing that causes danger on the roads.

    Thats interesting. I do think drivers slow down for unusual things. Unfortunately a child walking or cycling on the roadside is not one of those. They will slow down more if its a dog or a sheep.

    One very simple cost effective way to change things is reduce speed limits. All you have to do is change the f**king sign. Its almost a cliche at this stage, the tiny bodhreen with the 80k speed limit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,608 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    I heard a stat yesterday on the radio - one which I'd been wondering about for a while - that aside from the number of fatalities there have been approx 600 serious RTAs this year. Serious being crashes causing life changing injuries. That's something that gets missed in most of the reporting - the sheer scale of carnage can't just be measured in terms of fatalities. Of those 600 serious RTAs, how many people suffered life changing injuries? Year after year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭JC 3.14159


    "...people will leave their funerals and drive home in a fashion that may be similar to how the tragedies occurred because that is how bad things are in general that many just don't realise what they are doing"

    This is exactly it.

    In all the media coverage of these (and any other) crashes, where are the learning points for other drivers? Any road safety/advanced driving course will tell you that 95%+ of crashes are caused by driver error. But there's never a clear description of what the drivers' errors were.

    Crashes which happen to involve wet roads/floods/bald tyres/no seat belts - whatever - are all driver error. Yes, I get that there are possible legal implications with publishing some information, but until there is a clearly communicated cause and effect for all crashes, there is no opportunity for (especially) inexperienced drivers to learn from others' mistakes.

    Even something as simple as a few pictures of the road/bend etc, an estimate of driver speed, a few lines on the condition of the vehicle would enable drivers to build a picture in their heads of what 'bad' looks like. As it is, most drivers reading the coverage of, say, the Clonmel crash will see references to 'unexpectedly heavy rain' and mentally file it away as another unavoidable act of god/tragic accident etc.

    In any other industry/context, near misses/injuries/fatalities are exhaustively investigated, and serve as the best way to prevent future incidents. I just googled "UK Train Accident Reports" and clicked into Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) reports. Here's a random example: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/63ea1a7e8fa8f5051d967c12/R012023_230214_Lady_Howard_crossing.pdf

    It has photos, data, identifies causal factors, etc. Why isn't something similar produced for every serious road crash? Crashes do get investigated, the guards/insurance companies/RSA must have all this information, but for some reason none of it is ever shared with the public in a meaningful way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭hesker


    Sorry but speed limits don’t matter to an awful lot of people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,624 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    I think you are wrong there.

    Most new cars have a pop up on the screen telling you what the speed limit is; its there and you cant ignore it. Its not like the old days where if you dont see the sign then you dont think about it.

    Sure heaps of people ignore it; but a lot of people will follow it, and if they do then that brings down the average. Also, if three cars in front of you are at going at 60k, then much as you might want to go at 90k, you wont be able to.

    A good example is the Phoenix Park. Its a 30km zone now. Lots of people are following this, cars are definitely driving slower than before.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,624 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    And the whole Hi Viz narrative feeds into it - pedestrian deaths, shocking....and I saw this guy all wearing dark clothes walking along, couldnt believe it....



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,649 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    I live in Raheny, it's runner central. Since covid it's completely acceptable to run on roads even if there's a good footpath and it's not a big hassle for anyone. To be honest, it clears the footpath for kids, walkers, elderly etc... and the runner gets a better, clearer more stable run.

    My brother lives in a midWest rural part of Ireland and he tells me it's 80% unacceptable to run on roads even without a footpath. Dangerous close passing is the usual sign of disapproval along with beeps, shouts and sometimes rubbish thrown.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭hesker


    When I say an awful lot of people I mean the numerous cars that speed by me every morning when I drive to work under the speed limit. And then all the others around the country with similar attitudes.

    We need something better whether it is more fixed speed cameras or average speed cameras or what I don’t know



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The cycle design manual for LA's has just been released

    The CDM draws on the experience of delivering cycling infrastructure across Ireland over the last decade, as well as learning from international best practice, and has been guided by the need to deliver safe cycle facilities for people of all ages and abilities.

    The new manual places more emphasis on the range of cycles that cycle infrastructure will have to accommodate and the recommendations focus on segregating cyclists from traffic where speeds and volumes make roads unsuitable for sharing. There is also a general presumption towards segregating pedestrians and cyclists where possible.

    The CDM includes a number of new types of infrastructure such as protected junctions, Dutch style cycle-friendly roundabouts, and parallel crossings which are commonly used in other countries, and will now become an option for cycle infrastructure in Ireland. It should be noted that some newer features will require amendments to supporting Regulations and the Traffic Sign Manual so designers should consult with the relevant approving authority prior to installing any of the newer features to ensure applicability of designs/solutions.

    It is intended that manual will be a live document which will be updated and expanded as required to reflect emerging best practice and feedback from user experience of the manual. For this reason, the latest version of the guidance should always be accessed through the NTA website.

    That last bit is interesting, suggesting they will constantly tweak it as they learn more



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭JMcL


    Wiggle/CRC heading for rapidly swirling drain https://road.cc/content/news/wiggle-chain-reaction-cycles-records-ps97-million-loss-303605

    I wasn't even aware they'd been taken over in 2021, but reading through the story and background is the usual litany merger, takeover, private equity, sweat assets, more takeovers, market listing on the back of everybody want a pandemic bike - expensive lunches for all with their noses in the trough at each stage no doubt



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Some interesting bits from the new cycle design manual

    Those involved in setting up infrastructure should know and understand what its like to use said infrastructure

    Promoters of cycle facilities should cycle

    To have a greater understanding and appreciation of the main needs of cyclists, it is strongly recommended that everyone involved in the promotion and delivery of cycle infrastructure should have recent experience of utility cycling, i.e. cycling for transport purposes, on various types of infrastructure in Ireland. This includes engineers, technicians, planners, senior management in Local Authorities and elected representatives.

    Designers of cycle facilities should also cycle each route they are designing to experience the cycling environment first-hand and gain an appreciation for how the route fits in to the overall cycle network.

    It is also recommended that designers gain first-hand experience of the new types of cycle infrastructure promoted in this manual e.g. protected junctions, as the infrastructure is rolled out across the country. As many of the new design elements in the manual stem from international best practice, particularly from The Netherlands, Denmark and the UK, designers are also encouraged where possible to gain user experience of such facilities abroad. 

    UD being incorporated right from the start is very welcome

    Universal Design and Inclusive Mobility Cycle

    Facilities should be designed to be useable by people of all ages and abilities using a variety of different types of cycles and wheeling equipment. It is worth noting that there has been a noticeable increase in recent years in the use of non-standard cycle equipment such as cargo bikes, tricycles, electric bicycles etc. and it is anticipated that their popularity will continue to increase as our cycle networks become more developed.

    The use of motorised wheelchairs and mobility scooters is also permitted on cycle tracks and it would be similarly anticipated that as our cycle networks are developed further, more people using wheelchairs and mobility devices will be encouraged and enabled to use the networks as is commonly seen in other countries with more mature cycle networks 

    The various types of bikes should all be able to use the facilities without issue

    It details the various types of bike lanes from just paint all the way to greenways and then indicates the suitability of each for the road in question. Importantly it seems to say that regardless of what the limit it, the results of a traffic survey showing higher than limit speeds may indicate a higher classification of facility is required

    It goes into great detail, in many sections, on the importance of the "network" and connectivity.

    It also gives very limited options in using the regular type of painted bike lanes in the future


    Nevermind cycling, how much nicer would it be as a pedestrian if kerbs were done like this rather than the up/down sh1te we have now

    It gives many examples of protected junctions and crossings, both controlled and uncontrolled


    It also covers the many surface type options, when to use each, when not to and so on.

    It even talks about drainage options

    It covers the various options for bike parking/storage and the various facilities that come with this depending on the journey type

    There's some amount of stuff in it



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,212 ✭✭✭JMcL


    I've just had a quick scan through and it's an impressive document put together by somebody who knows what they're doing! The only thing I'd be wary of is the detail in the "Use of guidance" on p4 which features such words as "guidance" and "should" which might leave a lot of wriggle room for LAs to just plough on with painting lines on the road



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Average speed cameras won't make a jot of difference to road fatalities. They only really work for enforcement on motorways or dual carriageways which have limited entrance and exit points. Certainly have their merits in terms of managing traffic flows and in trying to reduce emmissions via speed management, but won't make much impact on fatalities.

    What's needed is a targeted approach with fixed cameras and regular garda presence at known "black spots", combined with proper mobile speed cameras - not manned vans that need a designated safe area to be set up in, and need to be manned - that can be (and are) set up on any road. Lets be honest - everyone knows the speed trap locations on roads they commonly travel and equally knows the parts that they're unlikely to ever be pulled for speeding on. Something like the below - but smaller again - should be able to be developed to allow roads that normally see little to no policing be targetted. Put a bit of unpredictibility back into our roads policing.


    Ultimately the only way for a difference to be made is significant beefing up of the Roads Policing Unit, with big increases in the number of unmarked garda cars (and more variety in makes - not just a fleet of easily identified base-spec Hyundais). Have Gardaí in unmarked cars simply patrolling at random, and pulling people over when they see poor driving; be it speeding, dangerous passes, amber-gambling, etc. I've reached the point of not even being surprised when I see someone run a red light in front of a squad car, and nothing happens.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    The problem with reporting the causative factors in any fatal collision is this can't be done until all criminal, coroner and civil court proceedings have been completed.

    This can take many years before the process is complete.

    I'm not quite sure what new information people expect to learn in most road collisions anyhow. We know what kills; we know what safe driving, good road design, road maintenance, vehicle maintenance etc standards are required to minimise collisions.

    Non compliance with fairly basic road safety rules would cover the causative factors in almost all serious collisions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The Roads Policing Unit need to get out of their cars.

    They need to get on bikes, buses, trucks (as done by their peers around the world) which all give a birds eye view of drivers using their phones in particular.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭JC 3.14159


    Yeah, I appreciate there are the legal aspects etc.

    But right now in Ireland there have been 2 high profile, tragic crashes with full-time media attention, which is (rightly) sparking some discussion about improving road safety.

    I’ve read (on twitter, possibly? I honestly can’t remember where) REMOVED. But that’s only because I have an interest in road safety, and happen to follow a few accounts where this type of info can pop up. If I was only watching TV or reading a paper, the only (possible) causal factor mentioned is heavy rain in Clonmel.

    A driver crashing with bald tyres or no seat belts is going to be immediately obvious, and non-disputable. Surely publicising this (obvious, minimal) level of information isn’t going to jeopardise any major legal findings? But it could well be the nudge that other drivers need to avoid repeating the same mistakes. And it’s a nudge which is most effective now when this is fresh in everyones’ minds, not in a year’s time when the RSA run their next ‘wear your seatbelts’ ad.

    Instead everything is hidden away and can’t be talked about because it’s insensitive, and the cycle continues.

    Last thing - this is the cycling forum - I think ‘we’ know what safe driving etc look like, because anyone who cycles here learns the difference between safe and unsafe driving very quickly. But the average Irish driver? Not so much. I think they need all the help they can get. Most drivers have no concept of the potential damage a fast moving car can cause. If they did, they’d be terrified and wouldn’t drive close to a pedestrian at anything above walking pace.

    mod note - do not repeat social media rumours about the causes of fatal accidents.

    Post edited by magicbastarder on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,739 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    Take the Clonmel case, you might assume or might hear that car must have been travelling to flip, but being intimately familiar with the location (I wore the leather heels of my father's shoes 31 years ago walking up and down that road in the night of my debs 😄 and have cycled up and down it probably hundreds of times) there is structures at locus which could facilitate a car overturning at low speeds.

    In relation to tyre issues in any case, who establishes that fact? Garda PSV inspector issues report before any court hearing? Does any part have a right of reply or can they get their own motor Engineer to inspect and report?

    What if there is an issue with poor road drainage? What if a private property is discharging water onto road? All that would need investigation and a fair forum to decide on responsibility/liability with a right to appeal.

    A rush to publish prejudices any such rights to fair procedure.

    We know bald tyres are dangerous. We know driving in downpours is Hugh risk. We know young drivers are a problem. We know seat belts work. We know that people drive too fast in housing estates, schools where there are young kids.

    There are endless previous fatal accidents which could be used in any add campaigns for road safety without interfering in due process for current tragedies.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,354 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    folks - just a reminder, please no speculation or repeating of rumours about the causes of recent fatal accidents.



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