Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

breezy1985

I would say the perception of cycling is middle class.

This could be down to a couple of things like certainly I would say in Limerick at least the vocal cycling advocates are mostly middle class and middle class people are also more likely to have the fancy high end bike and kit making them more noticeable to the general public.

I would say just looking at it myself though that there isn't really any huge pattern to the demographics in Limerick but I could be wrong.

And if anyone annoys you about the "it's only middle class" thing just remind em that Sean Kellys father was a farmer and Sam's a soccer player

Seth Brundle

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

There's little difference between the letters page in the IT and a comments section on The Journal, bar the eloquence of the writing, the messages are usually the same, lol

Case in point today...

Cyclists, ring those bells

A chara, – Having just survived, yet again, and narrowly, being sliced in two by a silent cyclist coming up behind me, I am crying to the heavens for the sound of bells.

Cyclists are everywhere now, especially here in Dún Laoghaire, where our traffic system has been overhauled (I refrain from writing “ruined”) to give cyclists parity along the seafront.

Environmental concerns are vital, but I am not getting into that argument. But anyone who values their health and bodily integrity can get very fed up with the numerous times it is necessary to leap briskly out of the way when perceiving the silent cyclist at the last minute.

Why do cyclists not ring their bells?

When I asked one senior gentleman cyclist if he had a bell, in reasonable tones, I was immediately accused of being abusive.

It seems to me that Hobbes’s war of all against all is imminent, with the cyclists on one side and pedestrians on the other.

The law (1963, amended) is that all bicycles in Ireland must have a bell.

Folks, please use them. – Is mise,

ANGELA LONG,
Dún Laoghaire,
Co Dublin.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/cyclists-ring-those-bells-1.4366769

cletus

Surely part of the middle class or elitist view of cycling is how some cyclists perceive other cyclists.

Even on this forum, I've come across posters trotting out the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Large bottle small glass

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I think it's down to more traffic lights, more traffic, and people just becoming more entitled for some reason that's led to the hatred of cyclists. Seeing someone cycling between cars or through a pedestrian crossing is something that they can vent their frustrations on. It's almost like some kind of shared psychosis among the populace.

Driving is pretty expensive, and a lot of time commuting across cities is pretty a horrible, stressful experience.

By comparison cycling is cheap and can be enjoyable for commuting.

A lot of the angst is the realisation that there is a better, way cheaper alternative or at least there was before you bought that 4 bed in Urlingford when you work in Ballsbridge.

The motor industry sells a mirage which is mostly boll1x.

When Victor in Dalkey finally gets to bring his Range Rover for a drive up the mountains at the weekend his progess is constantly impeded by fat auld lads in tights.

Ergo cyclists are cnuts.

Expecting drive time radio to be pro cycling is like wishing for roast pork when your Jewish neighbour invites you for dinner

Tombo2001

cletus wrote: »

Surely part of the middle class or elitist view of cycling is how some cyclists perceive other cyclists.

Even on this forum, I've come across posters trotting out the No True Scotsman fallacy.

Ok maybe so - but explain then why Sinn Fein, the largest political party that targetting lower income workers - has no Cycling policy, didnt even mention it.

While FG/ FF/ Greens are all very vocal on it.

Tombo2001

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Case in point today...

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/cyclists-ring-those-bells-1.4366769

I am so reasonable, that I couldnt just leave it there....I had to pen a letter to the Irish Times about it.....

Lads could we run a competition where we send letters to the Irish Times giving out about cyclists in the most ridiculous ways, and see who wins.

(Something a long the lines last year of the lad giving out about the cyclist who was in the hi viz jacket......but wasnt wearing hi viz gloves, which makes it hard to see when he is indicating).

Macy0161

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Ok maybe so - but explain then why Sinn Fein, the largest political party that targetting lower income workers - has no Cycling policy, didnt even mention it.

They target workers?

Tombo2001

Have to say though - she has a point, all cyclists should have bells and most dont.

Thelonious Monk

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Ok maybe so - but explain then why Sinn Fein, the largest political party that targetting lower income workers - has no Cycling policy, didnt even mention it.

While FG/ FF/ Greens are all very vocal on it.

Well I know in my estate lots of people have always voted for Sinn Fein, they had been putting up hunger striker memorials etc until recently.
Anyway there's a white van outside nearly every house, and white van men absolutely despise cyclists.
Despite this, there are still lower income workers where I live who cycle but for SF it's probably best to not mention cycling.

cletus

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Ok maybe so - but explain then why Sinn Fein, the largest political party that targetting lower income workers - has no Cycling policy, didnt even mention it.

While FG/ FF/ Greens are all very vocal on it.

I don't have an explanation, other than any perceived socialist/left leaning/whatever (mostly populist, imo) positioning by SF strikes me a a cynical political move, taking up a political space where they feel votes will be easily had.

The point I was making is that even cyclists don't embrace cyclists, so why should we expect other groups to?

tomasrojo

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Despite this, there are still lower income workers where I live who cycle but for SF it's probably best to not mention cycling.

Sinn Féin is a fairly populist party; at least to me they seem to have been since they realised they were losing votes to populist independents over water charges.

Populists don't tend to support cycling, or climate-change initiatives, or polluter-pays initiatives.

(I'm not saying that water charges were implemented all that well, but SF didn't oppose them until quite late in the day.)

breezy1985

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Have to say though - she has a point, all cyclists should have bells and most dont.

I bought one today as I am law proofing my bike just incase.

Getting a rear reflector too dispute this being a really stupid requirement

Harrybelafonte

Anyone I know in Dublin who supports SF has proven repeatedly to be a racist... SF's leftist views are skin deep

magicbastarder

folks, can we leave the discussion of SF (unless it pertains specifically to cycling), to other forums on boards where it's more suited?
we don't want this getting fractious.

cletus

breezy1985 wrote: »

I bought one today as I am law proofing my bike just incase.

Getting a rear reflector too dispute this being a really stupid requirement

These are currently the things that Gardai can hand out fines for. Reflectors and bells are not listed. I suppose a Garda could fine you under Riding a bicycle without reasonable consideration

No front or rear light during lighting-up hours
Riding a bicycle without reasonable consideration
Failing to stop for a school warden sign
Failing to stop at traffic lights when the red lamp is lit
Failing to stop at cycle traffic lights when the red lamp is lit
Failing to stop at a stop line, barrier or half barrier at a railway level crossing, swing bridge or lifting bridge, when the red lamps are flashing
Cycling in a pedestrianised street or area


I thought that the law stated a bike must be sold with a bell, but there was no law saying you couldn't remove it, but I can't find that. All my searches come back to the lighting of vehicles, so if anyone has a link to the statute re bells and reflectors, I'd like to have a look

tomasrojo

There's a Law megathread. I'll find it in a minute.

You in theory do need a bell unless you have a bicycle "adapted for racing" or something like that. No-one seems to know what this exemption means r why it was put in there.

You in theory have to have a rear reflector.

I don't think you'll ever be stopped for either of these, though they might be brought up if they want to teach you a lesson when they stop yu for something else.

EDIT:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057136579

S.I. No. 190/1963 - Road Traffic (Construction, Equipment and Use of Vehicles) Regulations, 1963.
93. (1) Every pedal cycle (other than a cycle constructed or adapted for use as a racing cycle) while used in a public place shall be fitted with an audible warning device consisting of a bell capable of being heard at a reasonable distance, and no other type of audible warning instrument shall be fitted to a pedal cycle while used in a public place.

S.I. No. 189/1963 - Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) Regulations, 1963.
33. (1) Every vehicle shall at all times while used in a public place be equipped with either one or two (as may be required under sub-article (4) of this article) rear reflectors (in this Part of these Regulations referred to as "obligatory rear reflectors") complying in all respects with the provisions of this Part of these Regulations.
[...]
(4) (a) In the case of a pedal cycle or a mechanically propelled bicycle used without a side-car, one obligatory rear reflector shall be fitted to the vehicle.
(5) Every obligatory rear reflector shall be fitted to the vehicle in a vertical position, facing squarely to the rear so as to be plainly visible from the rear.
(6) Every obligatory rear reflector shall be so constructed, fitted and maintained as to be plainly visible at night time in clear weather for a distance of 325 feet when illuminated by the head lamps of a mechanically propelled vehicle directly behind.

[...]

37. (1) Every vehicle used in a public place shall be equipped only with such reflectors as comply with the following provisions of this article.

(2) Every reflector with which a vehicle is equipped and which is visible from outside the vehicle shall be—

(a) red, if facing to the rear,
(b) amber, if facing to the side,
(c) white, if facing to the front.

(There's an exemption for pedal reflectors that lets them face front and rear while being amber)

magicbastarder

cletus wrote: »

I thought that the law stated a bike must be sold with a bell

i think it's the other way around; legal to sell without a bell, illegal to use without one.

Large bottle small glass

magicbastarder wrote: »

folks, can we leave the discussion of SF (unless it pertains specifically to cycling), to other forums on boards where it's more suited?
we don't want this getting fractious.

Ní ceapaim liom gurb é an fóram cuí é ach oiread

Couldn't resist sorry..

magicbastarder

found this, 1963 law so possibly superseded:

28. (1) Every vehicle (other than a pedestrian-controlled vehicle) shall be fitted with an audible warning device complying with the provisions of sub-article (2) of this article, capable of giving sufficient warning of the approach or position of the vehicle.

(2) The device referred to in sub-article (1) of this article shall not consist of—

(a) a gong, siren or other strident-toned device except in the case of a vehicle used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes, or

(b) a bell, except in the case of—

(i) a vehicle used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes, or

(ii) a bicycle—

I. the engine of which does not exceed 50 cubic centimetres in cylinder capacity as calculated in accordance with article 27 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations, 1958 ( S.I. No. 13 of 1958 ) and

II. which is incapable of exceeding 24 miles per hour on a dry level road under normal atmospheric conditions.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/si/190/made/en/print

cletus

It may have been the 'constructed or adapted for racing' that I was thinking of. In fairness, that covers a fair amount of bikes, especially considering it doesn't stipulate that the person with the bike must be actually racing.

Re. the yellow side reflectors, maybe it's just me, but all spoke reflectors (i.e. on the side of the bike) I see are white.

*Edit* what's a "pedestrian-controlled vehicle"

CramCycle

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The Luas is a really inefficient use of road space, yeah Pat...
Does Pat just want everything devoted to private cars?

I nearly choked when I read this, h*ly f*ck8888

Oymyakon wrote: »

Another thing is people seem to be offended by some cyclists wearing cycling kit (the cheek of them), making it seem like an elitist hobby rather than just an efficient way to get from A to B?

Possibly but more likely its easier to cast someone in lycra as different to you than someone in regular clothes.

magicbastarder wrote: »

i suspect it's got something to do with the fact that the department of transport has zero say over the running of the park.

The OPW are an interesting bunhc n there. Try organising an event in there if you don't know someone or are willing to bribe someone. You will find they are in a perpetul state of being fully booked, no matter how far you push the date out ( I asked for any Thursday evening 5 years from now), every year up until then was fully booked but somehow new events appear regularly, even in the calendars I was told were too full to add more too.

JMcL wrote: »

It's the OPW - which has some FF/FG (forget which) junior minister who demanded because - and I kid you not here, this is a quote I read at the time - people commuting from Longford needed to get to the city centre as well. Either Longford commuters like taking the scenic route or somebody needs a bit of revision on the national road network

Maybe he got Cavan and Longford mixed but what the hell

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The only major part with No policies at all on cycling was Sinn Fein. People Before Profit would have been similar. And the likes of Mannix Flynn would I am sure be similar.

I guess cycling is a middle class thing - although to be fair the B2W scheme which as we all know is a half price bike - is something that is not on offer to many low paid workers, and to the unemployed. However, a consequence is that the parties that target these groups dont care about cycling.

The irony being that most of the vitriol towards cyclists most likely comes from our national trait of looking down on the poor in our locality and that as cars became a symbol of not being poor, they therefore became something to look down on.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Case in point today...

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/cyclists-ring-those-bells-1.4366769

Ring a bell and you are likely to get pushed off or abused, don't ring it and you are accused of assault. People wonder why I stick to the road.

Large bottle small glass wrote: »

A lot of the angst is the realisation that there is a better, way cheaper alternative or at least there was before you bought that 4 bed in Urlingford when you work in Ballsbridge.

I think you are giving to much credit to angry people

When Victor in Dalkey finally gets to bring his Range Rover for a drive up the mountains at the weekend his progess is constantly impeded by fat auld lads in tights.

Living not far from the long hill to Roundwood, it typically Victor and his mates who impede me on the way down and the way up.

tomasrojo

Yeah, and the sidewall refletive material is always white.

A lot of this 1963 stuff is borderline dead-letter stuff. Apart from the units being all Imperial (which doesn't affect their legality, but makes them seem pretty antiquated), they do things like describe the dimensions a bike light has to be, and it's clearly based on an old evacuated-bulb light with a parabolic reflector.

swarlb

Oymyakon wrote: »

I'd be interest to know this. Could be to do with increased motor traffic in cities, the congestion leading to frustrated commuters looking for a scapegoat.

Another thing is people seem to be offended by some cyclists wearing cycling kit (the cheek of them), making it seem like an elitist hobby rather than just an efficient way to get from A to B?

I think the cycling kit does have a part to play. When I cycled to work I work my work clothes, complete with trouser clips, and longer toe straps.
When I went training, depending on the weather (it always seemed to be winter and wet) I wore a 'tracksuit' over my cycling shorts, and usually on my 'hack bike' as racing tubulars were expensive.
And when I raced I wore my race gear, plus helmet. I don't think I ever saw anyone out training wearing a helmet. It just didn't happen.

Even today I get confused sometimes (probably from being born in the 50s') when I come across a group of cyclists.... they almost NEVER seem to be racing, but are decked head to toe in 'racing gear'....

I'm probably just getting old...

breezy1985

tomasrojo wrote: »

There's a Law megathread. I'll find it in a minute.

You in theory do need a bell unless you have a bicycle "adapted for racing" or something like that. No-one seems to know what this exemption means r why it was put in there.

You in theory have to have a rear reflector.

I don't think you'll ever be stopped for either of these, though they might be brought up if they want to teach you a lesson when they stop yu for something else.

EDIT:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057136579

S.I. No. 190/1963 - Road Traffic (Construction, Equipment and Use of Vehicles) Regulations, 1963.

(4) (a) In the case of a pedal cycle or a mechanically propelled bicycle used without a side-car, one obligatory rear reflector shall be fitted to the vehicle.

Ya that's what I was going off. And in regards to law proofing the bike I wasn't worried about fines but don't want any of these silly insignificant thing being used against me if I ever was in a crash especially involving a pedestrian

cletus

swarlb wrote: »

I think the cycling kit does have a part to play. When I cycled to work I work my work clothes, complete with trouser clips, and longer toe straps.
When I went training, depending on the weather (it always seemed to be winter and wet) I wore a 'tracksuit' over my cycling shorts, and usually on my 'hack bike' as racing tubulars were expensive.
And when I raced I wore my race gear, plus helmet. I don't think I ever saw anyone out training wearing a helmet. It just didn't happen.

Even today I get confused sometimes (probably from being born in the 50s') when I come across a group of cyclists.... they almost NEVER seem to be racing, but are decked head to toe in 'racing gear'....

I'm probably just getting old...

Whenever people are involved in an activity or hobby (commuting to work probably doesn't fall under this category) there is a sub culture that goes along with it, an implicit way of showing or telling other people in the same sub culture that you're a member too. This is not limited to cycling.

People involved in such sub cultures will do certain things, and act in a certain way that those out side the subculture may not understand.

Then you get sub-subcultures, especially when the original thing seems to have become "mainstream"

breezy1985

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Case in point today...

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/cyclists-ring-those-bells-1.4366769

Is it just me or in recent years are all letters and forum posts beginning with a chara usually 90% nonsense

Thelonious Monk

CramCycle wrote: »

I nearly choked when I read this, h*ly f*ck8888

The man is a liability at this stage with the stuff he's stoking

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1310898419045548032

Macy0161

I think we've discussed the legislation needing a serious bringing up to date before on here around lights. Light specifications are in size, in inches - basically every light sold nowadays would be in breach of the legislation. The standard of brightness is visibility in x yards irrc.

Not sure why anyone wouldn't have a bell on a commuter bike though, particularly if you're using cycle lanes (which are always de facto shared spaces in my experience).

Actually a bell is one of the best additions I've made to my gravel bike too. Far more effective than a call.

CramCycle wrote: »

Possibly but more likely its easier to cast someone in lycra as different to you than someone in regular clothes.

In my experience, I get less close passes/ more patience when I nip to the shops in my normal clothes than when I'm doing the same road heading out for a spin. It's probably more noticeable when I head out with my girls - one is on a drop bar bike (one of mine, so tall) and likes to dress in the gear, so essentially looks like an adult. The other isn't bothered with the gear, has a sit up "city" bike. Same routes - more patience when I'm out with the one that is obviously a child/ civilian!

Seth Brundle

swarlb wrote: »

Even today I get confused sometimes (probably from being born in the 50s') when I come across a group of cyclists.... they almost NEVER seem to be racing, but are decked head to toe in 'racing gear'....

In my own experience, you don't see really people out racing. You might see them training but if they are training in a group then they are with a group who all have similar fitness levels (and therefore it doesn't look like racing).
I do my best to push myself every time I'm out for a spin. I'm not racing but I am usually doing my damnedest.
I wear clothing that suitable for what I'm doing. My shorts are padded because otherwise I wouldn't be able to stay out for as long on a modern saddle.
I wear a top that isn't going to blow about in the wind and which has pockets that I can put stuff into. It's the same as a person doing pretty much any sport. They wear gear appropriate to their chosen activity.
I found that I had to get certain tee-shirts even to go out running because I'd rip the nipples off myself otherwise. Similarly, I own a decent pair of runners because I've crap knees and hips.
People see the lycra gear on cyclists and lose rational thought. They assume that the wearer is a wannabe Sam Bennett rather than someone simply wearing clothing appropriate to a leisure activity.

swarlb

cletus wrote: »

Whenever people are involved in an activity or hobby (commuting to work probably doesn't fall under this category) there is a sub culture that goes along with it, an implicit way of showing or telling other people in the same sub culture that you're a member too. This is not limited to cycling.

People involved in such sub cultures will do certain things, and act in a certain way that those out side the subculture may not understand.

Then you get sub-subcultures, especially when the original thing seems to have become "mainstream"

And then you have Lidl and Aldi.... selling all 'the gear' you'd never find outside of a specialist shop. Even today, you'd be hard pressed to find 'cycling gear' in a sports store.