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Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,613 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    zell12 wrote: »
    Sindo letter
    NsOuLZt.png

    Is that a repost of an original letter. I could have sworn I have read it before.

    That aside, he obviously missed the letter from the RSA 'Expert' Brian Farrell, who is also their own communications manager a couple of years ago.
    A letter which was discussed here as to the nonsense that was contained within it.

    Also, this 'cycling 3 abreast' lark leads me to think Dan is yet another driver prone to hyperbole.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,188 ✭✭✭RobertFoster


    Eamonnator wrote: »
    Yes, I feckin' do, fair play and well earned. I also get free flu jab, free T.V. licence and an electricity(?) allowance.
    Don't forget cheaper cinema tickets and 10% off in Woodies/B&Q one day a week. Yiz have it made.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,986 ✭✭✭cletus


    Another road tax letter
    Cyclists and motor tax
    Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 00:06

    Sir, – Perhaps you could refrain from publishing any letter which refers to “road tax”.

    This colloquial term belies its nature, which is more accurately communicated by its actual name, motor tax.

    Calling it road tax gives the impression that it is a beneficent levy on motorists that covers the cost of building and maintaining our public road infrastructure, for the good of all – motorists, bus passengers and cyclists alike. However, this is paid from general taxation – €1.3 billion according to the latest budget.

    Motor tax is a charge to take a destructive and polluting vehicle on to the public roads, and it has raised far less than even €1 billion in any of the last five years. Far from motorists paying for our roads, their use is subsidised by all taxpayers. Please, no more talk of “road tax”. – Yours, etc,

    BRIAN McARDLE,

    Leixlip,

    Co Kildare.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/cyclists-and-motor-tax-1.4400292


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,988 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Someone posted a great breakdown a while back which unfortunately I can't find but it showed that when you included all costs/benefits (pollution, maintenance, cost of providing parking, healthcare, injury claims vs income from motor tax, fuel taxes, VRT, insurance levies, economic activity etc.), then the gap was far more than 300 million. Cycling on the other hand was a significant net benefit for every km travelled by bike. The truth is the total opposite to the "hard pressed motorist" myth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭fat bloke


    Stark wrote: »
    Someone posted a great breakdown a while back which unfortunately I can't find but it showed that when you included all costs/benefits (pollution, maintenance, cost of providing parking, healthcare, injury claims vs income from motor tax, fuel taxes, VRT, insurance levies, economic activity etc.), then the gap was far more than 300 million. Cycling on the other hand was a significant net benefit for every km travelled by bike. The truth is the total opposite to the "hard pressed motorist" myth.

    In a societal sense that's certainly true, we're all paying for our collective motoring excesses, but there's no doubt that, for the individual driver (and I'm a keen drivist myself :)), the cost of buying, maintaining and running a car is awfully expensive. My motor tax alone would buy me, annually, a very nice bike indeed.
    In a way, it is the very fact that the driver is (literally) so invested in their car that incentivises its use, or rather disincentivises its non-use. There's a long argument in favour of moving motor tax (essentially a standing/driveway charge) to fuel (a genuine usage tax) that would put people more at ease about leaving the car at home and using an alternative mode of transport, whatever that would be.

    Anyway, I thought even PK was more moderate in his views in that last segment -more evidence of the tide of opinion turning. -And he is right in my opinion in his bell argument - a close, unannounced pass from behind is as distressing for a walker (being buzzed by a person on a bike) as it is for a cyclist (being buzzed by a driver of a car).


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,526 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    in a way, i'm kinda surprised the likes of go car has not been more successful. allows for may of the benefits of car ownership with few of the drawbacks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,988 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    fat bloke wrote: »
    In a societal sense that's certainly true, we're all paying for our collective motoring excesses, but there's no doubt that, for the individual driver (and I'm a keen drivist myself :)), the cost of buying, maintaining and running a car is awfully expensive. My motor tax alone would buy me, annually, a very nice bike indeed.
    In a way, it is the very fact that the driver is (literally) so invested in their car that incentivises its use, or rather disincentivises its non-use. There's a long argument in favour of moving motor tax (essentially a standing/driveway charge) to fuel (a genuine usage tax) that would put people more at ease about leaving the car at home and using an alternative mode of transport, whatever that would be.
    .

    My motor tax is 200 euro per annum. Not much more than the cost of maintenance/depreciation for my bike. My income tax bill on the other hand runs into tens of thousands and that's before adding on things like VAT and various stealth taxes. No way am I under the illusion that the motor tax portion of my tax contribution is the only part of my tax contribution that's paying for the roads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,988 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    in a way, i'm kinda surprised the likes of go car has not been more successful. allows for may of the benefits of car ownership with few of the drawbacks.

    I've considered it a few times. Most of the time when I'm using a car I'm driving somewhere for the day/weekend and the costs add up pretty quickly with GoCar when you do that. Like the Dublinbikes scheme that way. And they don't have a pick up and leave in a different location model, you have to return to your original location.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,986 ✭✭✭cletus


    Stark wrote: »
    My motor tax is 200 euro per annum. Not much more than the cost of maintenance/depreciation for my bike. My income tax bill on the other hand runs into tens of thousands and that's before adding on things like VAT and various stealth taxes. No way am I under the illusion that the motor tax portion of my tax contribution is the only part of my tax contribution that's paying for the roads.

    I don't think that's what was being suggested.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,979 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    in a way, i'm kinda surprised the likes of go car has not been more successful. allows for may of the benefits of car ownership with few of the drawbacks.

    Zip is pretty big in London now and Autolib has been a huge success in Paris


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭micar


    Stark wrote: »
    My motor tax is 200 euro per annum.

    Mine is €360 per year

    The way some motorists think....... because I pay more, I should have more entitlement to the road than you.

    Considering I also drive only about10k km per year........I pay more on a per 1,000 km basis than most.

    I pay €36 per 1,000 km driven.

    But you can't be saying that to a motorist who think cyclists have no entitlement to the road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,986 ✭✭✭cletus


    micar wrote: »
    Mine is €360 per year

    The way some motorists think....... because I pay more, I should have more entitlement to the road than you.

    Considering I also drive only about10k km per year........I pay more on a per 1,000 km basis than most.

    I pay €36 per 1,000 km driven.

    But you can't be saying that to a motorist who think cyclists have no entitlement to the road.

    Are we equating the amount of motor tax people pay with their attitudes to cyclists?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭Type 17


    cletus wrote: »
    Are we equating the amount of motor tax people pay with their attitudes to cyclists?

    For some (stupid) people, the answer is yes - bigger cars generally pay more motor tax, and are often driven by entitled people who are resentful of those whom they see to be getting away with paying nothing - this is of course nonsense, but you'll often meet them:

    Recently, I was talking to a few professional types with a view to retaining one of them for a task - during my chat with one of them, the subject of cycling came up, and he jumped straight in with the fact that "they pay no road tax". The way the conversation had developed, he already knew that I was a cyclist, but couldn't help blurting it out, and going on in a similar vein for about 30 seconds. He didn't get retained, and missed out on a 5-figure sum...

    My standard reply is that drivers don't pay for roads, taxpayers pay for them. Motorists pay for the pollution their vehicles cause.

    PS: I have a 2007 2-litre car, so I pay €710 in motor tax.


  • Registered Users Posts: 633 ✭✭✭ngunners


    in a way, i'm kinda surprised the likes of go car has not been more successful. allows for may of the benefits of car ownership with few of the drawbacks.

    I thought go car was pretty successful. I see them being used all the time around Dublin. Didn’t they add to their fleet in the last year or so also?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,986 ✭✭✭cletus


    Type 17 wrote: »
    For some (stupid) people, the answer is yes - bigger cars generally pay more motor tax, and are often driven by entitled people who are resentful of those whom they see to be getting away with paying nothing - this is of course nonsense, but you'll often meet them:

    Recently, I was talking to a few professional types with a view to retaining one of them for a task - during my chat with one of them, the subject of cycling came up, and he jumped straight in with the fact that "they pay no road tax". The way the conversation had developed, he already knew that I was a cyclist, but couldn't help blurting it out, and going on in a similar vein for about 30 seconds. He didn't get retained, and missed out on a 5-figure sum...

    My standard reply is that drivers don't pay for roads, taxpayers pay for them. Motorists pay for the pollution their vehicles cause.

    PS: I have a 2007 2-litre car, so I pay €710 in motor tax.

    But surely you can see that's anecdotal. We're not assuming direct correlation between motor tax rates and cycling attitudes.

    The fact is there are all sorts of people in all walks of life. I think it's a mistake to lump people together, based on something as varied as car ownership (especially when it's regularly pointed out here on this forum the cyclists are not a homogeneous group)

    It's too easy to read comments on the journal or hear texts read out on Newstalk about "running red lights, not paying road tax" and assume that it's all motorists, when in fact it's just people who feel strongly/have a chip on their shoulder who take the time to say these things. The vast majority of the world is just getting on with their day


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    Stark wrote: »
    I've considered it a few times. Most of the time when I'm using a car I'm driving somewhere for the day/weekend and the costs add up pretty quickly with GoCar when you do that. Like the Dublinbikes scheme that way. And they don't have a pick up and leave in a different location model, you have to return to your original location.

    Yeah, for anything like a weekend you're probably better off just getting a standard car rental. For example, just did a quick check there and EasiRent are doing a small car rental at €99/week - that's just over €14 /day.

    I signed up with GoCar about a year and a half ago but I've yet to use them. Mostly if I dont have the car and need to go somewhere I'll just hop on the bike.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭Type 17


    cletus wrote: »
    But surely you can see that's anecdotal. We're not assuming direct correlation between motor tax rates and cycling attitudes...


    Of course it's anecdotal, but there are general trends, which lead to stereotypes (white van man, aggressive BMW/Audi drivers, etc) - you always notice the bad ones, but not the others (as it happens, I'm an Audi driver, but I always indicate, and never play MGIF, so no one notices me).

    It's like the protests about LTN's (Low Traffic Neighbourhoods) in the UK, where a noisy minority are giving out, protesting to councils and damaging the infrastructure, when surveys actually show that a majority of people support them.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    100% Most white van men I meet are decent nice people, had friendly words with many over the years. Most cyclists do not run red lights and most have lights at night. Most BMWs do indicate, most SUVs can see you. Most motorists give you adequate space (although this is more recent). Most bus drivers are typically dead sound. Taxi drivers are normally really nice. Most Audi drivers are d1cks but that doesn't make them dangerous drivers :D We all remember the worst because they are the outliers. If everyone was sh1t, we would remember the good ones more often. Why do certain brands get a bad rap, well, simply, because there are very few big brands and statistically its not unbelievable that we might be skewed by bunching, they are easier to remember and bias. I should remember that while I see a few bad drivers a day, I also probably pass or are passed by a few 100 every day due to where I live, so while I remember a few twats, they are significantly in the minority.

    Maybe I am too relaxed tonight, the rose tinted specs are on.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,526 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    nurburgring stickers are a dead giveaway though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,767 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    in a way, i'm kinda surprised the likes of go car has not been more successful. allows for may of the benefits of car ownership with few of the drawbacks.

    It sure does. And gives you easy access to vans, if you need it ever.

    They have been pretty successful though. They had one car in about 2010 in Dublin,and now they're all over the city.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,526 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    even when my wife was learning to drive, it was kinda obvious that a driving lesson cost less per hour than a taxi probably would. and you're paying for a more specialised service.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,767 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Duckjob wrote: »
    Yeah, for anything like a weekend you're probably better off just getting a standard car rental. For example, just did a quick check there and EasiRent are doing a small car rental at €99/week - that's just over €14 /day.


    Yeah, they're really intended for short-term use. A few hours mostly, and mostly not going much more than, say, 70km. I have occasionally used them for longer trips because they're easier to leave back late on a Sunday than Avis used to be, which was my other car rental option.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,526 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Dutch government pilots technology to cut e-bike road deaths
    Digital system automatically reduces electric bicycles’ power in built-up areas
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/06/dutch-government-pilots-technology-to-cut-e-bike-road-deaths

    this begs a question so utterly, moronically obvious it's actually quite bizarre.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,979 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Dutch government pilots technology to cut e-bike road deaths
    Digital system automatically reduces electric bicycles’ power in built-up areas
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/06/dutch-government-pilots-technology-to-cut-e-bike-road-deaths

    this begs a question so utterly, moronically obvious it's actually quite bizarre.


    Would be great if the tech could tell if you were on a path and slow you but so unfair on a road.


    And ya there is the obvious question of why not put the tech in cars


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,727 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Not sure if a prat writing in a crap paper is journalism but anyhow...
    NIGEL FARAGE: Cyclists need to stop being so pious, pay road tax - and obey the rules like us motorists
    Cycling used to be an innocent childhood pastime – a chance to see the world and enjoy a first taste of freedom. Many of us wish it had stayed that way.

    Today, cycling is an exploding craze, a macho, high-speed hobby bringing town-centre traffic to a stop and turning the roads near my home into a velodrome.

    It is creating frustration and anger in millions of people simply trying to go about their business.
    ...
    In town, a journey to the Westminster office seems like a trip through the streets of Peking or Amsterdam. When I stop at traffic lights, cyclists surround me like a strange swarm of insects.
    ...and loads more predictable nonsense from Farage :rolleyes:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8924869/NIGEL-FARAGE-Stop-pious-pay-road-tax-obey-rules-like-motorists.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,979 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    He is reported to be on the verge of starting a new anti lockdown party. My guess is it will be a catch all old scared people who are afraid of change and are confused as to why there are suddenly so many black trans cyclists party


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭Type 17


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    He is reported to be on the verge of starting a new anti lockdown party. My guess is it will be a catch all old scared people who are afraid of change and are confused as to why there are suddenly so many black trans cyclists party

    Exactly - divisive demagoguery at its finest - here it is with the roles reversed, and it works just as well (provong that it's all BS either way)
    NIGEL FARAGE: Motorists need to stop being so pious, pay road tax - and obey the rules like us cyclists.
    Driving used to be an innocent childhood pastime – a chance to see the world and enjoy a first taste of freedom. Many of us wish it had stayed that way.

    Today, driving is an exploding craze, a macho, high-speed hobby bringing town-centre traffic to a stop and turning the roads near my home into a race-track.

    It is creating frustration and anger in millions of people simply trying to go about their business.
    ...
    In town, a journey to the Westminster office seems like a trip through the streets of Mumbai or Los Angeles. When I stop at traffic lights, motor vehicles surround me like a strange pack of wolves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    Nigel Farage + The Daily Mail.

    Would anybody honestly expect any level of critical analysis or factual reference when clicking that link ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭Breezer


    In town, a journey to the Westminster office seems like a trip through the streets of Peking or Amsterdam.

    Perish the thought!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,979 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Breezer wrote: »
    Perish the thought!


    It is full of hookers round there in fairness


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