Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

magicbastarder

Sono Topolino wrote: »

I get why cyclists are mad at motorists, and obviously attempted murders like that one need to be discouraged. There's no excuse.

But roads are meant for travel purposes - not for exercise. There are trails and amenities for that. Cyclists block up roads and slow drivers down when they go out for leisure rides, especially in rural areas. In cities, cycling is a viable form of transport but cyclists should stick to cycle lanes and stop causing traffic jams.

Also I think cyclists should pay road tax, register their bikes and affix number plates, and have to have an annual check to make sure their bike is roadworthy. If motorists have to do it, why shouldn't cyclists?

hello and welcome to the cycling forum. please have a read of the charter, specifically about the forum not being here for people to air their grievances about cyclists. once you've made yourself acquainted with these reasonable rules, you'll be welcome to post here.

everyone else, please don't respond further, that way madness lies.

Seth Brundle

Itish Times reporting on the story now...
‘They could have killed me’: Man pushed off bicycle while cycling at Sally Gap
Another man leaned out of car and pushed ‘John’ off bike in incident which was filmed

LollipopJimmy

Sono Topolino wrote: »

I get why cyclists are mad at motorists, and obviously attempted murders like that one need to be discouraged. There's no excuse.

But roads are meant for travel purposes - not for exercise. There are trails and amenities for that. Cyclists block up roads and slow drivers down when they go out for leisure rides, especially in rural areas. In cities, cycling is a viable form of transport but cyclists should stick to cycle lanes and stop causing traffic jams.

Also I think cyclists should pay road tax, register their bikes and affix number plates, and have to have an annual check to make sure their bike is roadworthy. If motorists have to do it, why shouldn't cyclists?

I get your logic and bu that token I should only use the car to commute and not go for a spin in the mountains?

magicbastarder

folks, please don't respond further to that post, i've asked the poster to desist posting in that manner so it's unfair to respond.

Tell me how

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Itish Times reporting on the story now...
‘They could have killed me’: Man pushed off bicycle while cycling at Sally Gap
Another man leaned out of car and pushed ‘John’ off bike in incident which was filmed

Surely they can work back from where that video appeared to at least identify a suspect.

It's the best advertisement for rear facing cameras you will see.

retalivity

I'm sure that the fact someone else contacted liveline to send the video, that its been doing the rounds on whatsapp etc and the perpetrators are identifiable, either by the video itself or from whoever it was sent to in private groups.

Type 17

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

See this is why I wasn't exaggerating when I called them hate crimes against people on bikes. I wonder how many people have been killed after being purposely ran off the road by people in cars? It's f*cking crazy the hatred out there.

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's assault, plain and simple, not a hate crime.

Whether it's a hate-crime or assault, poor-quality journalism like that mentioned above does have a part to play, in the same way that Trump calling Covid-19 the China Virus/Kung-Flu, etc has led to an increase in assaults on Asians in the US.

Like it or not, cyclists are still a minority relative to other road-users, and constantly deriding any minority group as a source of bad things (increased traffic congestion, self-righteousness, not paying their fair share for the roads, theft of road-space) can only lead to (stupid) people from seeing it as an excuse to get their kicks and/or relieve their frustrations.

Duckjob

Type 17 wrote: »

Whether it's a hate-crime or assault, poor-quality journalism like that mentioned above does have a part to play, in the same way that Drumpf calling Covid-19 the China Virus/Kung-Flu, etc has led to an increase in assaults on Asians in the US.

Like it or not, cyclists are still a minority relative to other road-users, and constantly deriding any minority group as a source of bad things (increased traffic congestion, self-righteousness, not paying their fair share for the roads, theft of road-space) can only lead to (stupid) people from seeing it as an excuse to get their kicks and/or relieve their frustrations.

Not to mention another inequality that's often conveniently brushed over by those shouting those oh-so-clever soundbites like "courtesy is a two way street" ..

As a motorist, I have the luxury of being able to drive past cyclists and not have to give a flying fart how they feel about me or if they have any sort of irrational hatred against me. Reverse the situation, and as a cyclist I don't have that luxury.

magicbastarder

Type 17 wrote: »

Whether it's a hate-crime or assault, poor-quality journalism like that mentioned above does have a part to play

i can't disagree with Ciaran Cannon here, but i did manage to disagree with him (a little)

https://twitter.com/JSWeetabix/status/1382603789274906629

Duckjob

I think that misses the point MB.

They are indeed assholes / scumbags / dregs of society, whatever you want to call them.

However, even for this type of "person", I believe their behavior (or what they think they can safely get away with) is going to be calibrated to some degree like elastic from a base point of what is considered acceptable in normal society

If the norm of society was a strict code of respect for vulnerable road users, then I think fringe behavior like this would be less likely as it would be too far of a stretch from the norm.

As it is now, the norm is one where society in general can openly spew hate about people who choose to get around on bikes. When something like this happens they wring their hands sincerely and talk out of the other side of the mouths about how terrible it is, but a lot of those same people will be back to the regular output about cyclists as soon as the fuss is died down.

magicbastarder

again, yes but. it's a correlation/causation debate. a lot of the root cause of why the guys above do what they did is also why various radio show hosts say what they say. but they didn't do that because of radio talk.
i might not be explaining myself well enough here.

silverharp

Duckjob wrote: »

I think that misses the point MB.

They are indeed assholes / scumbags / dregs of society, whatever you want to call them.

However, even for this type of "person", I believe their behavior (or what they think they can safely get away with) is going to be calibrated to some degree like elastic from a base point of what is considered acceptable in normal society

If the norm of society was a strict code of respect for vulnerable road users, then I think fringe behavior like this would be less likely as it would be too far of a stretch from the norm.

As it is now, the norm is one where society in general can openly spew hate about people who choose to get around on bikes. When something like this happens they wring their hands sincerely and talk out of the other side of the mouths about how terrible it is, but a lot of those same people will be back to the regular output about cyclists as soon as the fuss is died down.

its more a product of the social media age, I doubt this would have happened pre 2010 because there would have been no one to see it, all you need is one of these going viral and it becomes something for shares and likes

Tombo2001

Duckjob wrote: »

I think that misses the point MB.

They are indeed assholes / scumbags / dregs of society, whatever you want to call them.

However, even for this type of "person", I believe their behavior (or what they think they can safely get away with) is going to be calibrated to some degree like elastic from a base point of what is considered acceptable in normal society

If the norm of society was a strict code of respect for vulnerable road users, then I think fringe behavior like this would be less likely as it would be too far of a stretch from the norm.

As it is now, the norm is one where society in general can openly spew hate about people who choose to get around on bikes. When something like this happens they wring their hands sincerely and talk out of the other side of the mouths about how terrible it is, but a lot of those same people will be back to the regular output about cyclists as soon as the fuss is died down.

Agree with this 100% - I think its particularly true of attacks on deliveroo cyclists.

Tombo2001

The other thing that Ciaran Cannon missed is - not only were Cyclists mocked on the Late Late Show, but the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland defended their right to do so.....legitimised it in a very formal way.

Large bottle small glass

silverharp wrote: »

its more a product of the social media age, I doubt this would have happened pre 2010 because there would have been no one to see it, all you need is one of these going viral and it becomes something for shares and likes

It's probably got nothing to do with media coverage of cyclists and more to do with young lads doing stupid sh1t which is probably gone up a level because they can record it and share it so easily.

They are as likely to be roaring obscenities at girls walking/running etc.

About 7 or 8 years ago on a Bank Holiday Monday evening I was on my fairly frequent 100km weekend "commute" around here
https://goo.gl/maps/PRP8dy3Vav3EDoSG9
when a car passed with four passengers one of whom was a drunken tool leaning out window and roaring; they went awful close to me and I assumed he had tried to hit me but misjudged his effort.

10 minutes or so later I cycled through Ballyporeen when the same lad ran from right hand footpath across into my path (it's a village with wide streets so I saw him coming) with his hand up to strike but stopped about a meter short. His friend had half come and stopped.

They were just assh0les I doubted were influenced much by the Irish Times/Newstalk etc and more by the 12 or 13 pints on board

They never knew, and I was very glad I didn't have to try, but my very quickly plotted escape was to ride straight for him with bike and hopefully be up in time to deal with wanker #2. I even had an escape plan up Shanrahan to get back to Cork!

Social media raises awareness of these things as they allow them to be recorded, shared and then discussed but I'm not convinced they are anymore common. The discussion then tends to happen in echo chambers or shouting matches point scoring.

I'm just in from 2 hrs on bike on country roads, every interaction with other road users, pedestrians, car drivers, tractor driver and truck drivers was pleasant and courteous; which is the norm for me.

Macy0161

I would've said "egging" cars and other such numbskull stuff was a thing amongst the dickheads when I was a teenager?

magicbastarder

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Agree with this 100% - I think its particularly true of attacks on deliveroo cyclists.

again, i think this is a facet of the same problem; my issue was i would not draw a causal link as cannon did, between that mindless thuggery and the (calculated) nonsense PK and his ilk get up to. the deliveroo cyclists were attacked because they're an exposed marginalised group, just as that chap up on the dublin mountains was by those guys in the car.

the guys attacking deliveroo cyclists were not attacking them because of what was being said about cyclists on a radio station for frustrated commuters sitting in their cars in rush hour. the root of the issue is that those guys attacked him because they knew they'd get away with it, and PK does it because it drives listeners, and he gets paid for it.

it's kinda funny to see how some of this stuff operates; what was possibly/probably intended to be a joke poster about dryrobes at the forty foot gained legs to make it onto national media and drive *actual* dislike of people who were doing nothing objectionable.
maybe i'm putting my cranky old man hat on here, but there always has been an element in irish society of mistrusting people who 'choose' to be different. cutting down the tallest daisy, etc.; i'd see both the media stance on cyclists, and thuggish attacks on cyclists as a reflection on that.

07Lapierre

Back in the 80's, when I was a teenager, I was cycling to work and I sensed a car approaching from behind. It was a close pass and as the car passed, a fist just missed my chin. I was very lucky that this guy just missed me!

This type of behaviour is not new, it's just their were no mobile phones or internet back then.

AndrewJRenko

07Lapierre wrote: »

Back in the 80's, when I was a teenager, I was cycling to work and I sensed a car approaching from behind. It was a close pass and as the car passed, a fist just missed my chin. I was very lucky that this guy just missed me!

This type of behaviour is not new, it's just their were no mobile phones or internet back then.

About 8-10 years ago, I was struggling up the hill on Lr Churchtown Road, outside the golf club, when a little Fiat passed and some young lad slapped my ample arse out the passenger window. I'm glad that they got away and didn't get caught at the lights as the red mist had well descended.

Gardai said that car was written-off months previous and shouldn't have been on the road.

breezy1985

07Lapierre wrote: »

Back in the 80's, when I was a teenager, I was cycling to work and I sensed a car approaching from behind. It was a close pass and as the car passed, a fist just missed my chin. I was very lucky that this guy just missed me!

This type of behaviour is not new, it's just their were no mobile phones or internet back then.

But there was Pat Kenny

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

About 8-10 years ago, I was struggling up the hill on Lr Churchtown Road, outside the golf club, when a little Fiat passed and some young lad slapped my ample arse out the passenger window. I'm glad that they got away and didn't get caught at the lights as the red mist had well descended.

Gardai said that car was written-off months previous and shouldn't have been on the road.

8-10 year ago was the last time I was on that road I'd say and used to take the left off the dodder path up that hill on the way home. It's not that it's that steep or long but if I recall you came off the flat along the river and were instantly met with 5% gradient I think for 300 meters. Remember a few times taking the left in to high a gear and hitting the hill. At least if you came from the dropping well if it's still there you got a run at it.

Thargor

Bizarre hit piece on RTE there a minute ago, I see Irishcycling already tweeted about it, they couldnt find any of this antisocial behaviour so just had to talk about it in a theoretical way for the whole piece. Also how car traffic acts as a deterrent to antisocial behaviour.

https://twitter.com/IrishCycle/status/1383878497806913544

I went to school in Gort so had plenty of nights out in Ennis over the years and believe me they had no shortage of antisocial behaviour in the centre of town back when the whole place was devoted to cars.

breezy1985

Thargor wrote: »

Bizarre hit piece on RTE there a minute ago, I see Irishcycling already tweeted about it, they couldnt find any of this antisocial behaviour so just had to talk about it in a theoretical way for the whole piece. Also how car traffic acts as a deterrent to antisocial behaviour.

https://twitter.com/IrishCycle/status/1383878497806913544

I went to school in Gort so had plenty of nights out in Ennis over the years and believe me they had no shortage of antisocial behaviour in the centre of town back when the whole place was devoted to cars.

Was in Ennis last summer and the closed streets were amazing. Its the perfect little town for something like this and the businesses are talking out their ar$e the place was thronged.


Theres and old tackle & bike shop down there too that has loads of 90s/00s kit including an amazing Kelme jersey

magicbastarder

ennis looks like it's under siege there.

tomasrojo

07Lapierre wrote: »

This type of behaviour is not new, it's just their were no mobile phones or internet back then.

Well, there was an Internet, but it wasn't great for uploading video content.

magicbastarder

matthew broderick, one of the most famous examples of 'if you want to kill someone and get away with it, do it with a car'.

Stark

magicbastarder wrote: »

matthew broderick, one of the most famous examples of 'if you want to kill someone and get away with it, do it with a car'.

I find it so puntastically bizarre that he and Sarah Jessica Parker own a holiday home in Kilcar.

All he got was a £100 fine for the "accident" according to Wikipedia.

JMcL

breezy1985 wrote: »

Was in Ennis last summer and the closed streets were amazing. Its the perfect little town for something like this and the businesses are talking out their ar$e the place was thronged.

Wish it would catch on in Waterford. Bloody town has actually gone the other way and let cars into one of the few bits that are normally pedestrtianised. Had to go in to get my eyes checked a few weeks ago and some twat in a large landrover had just dumped it in the narrowest section of probably the busiest thouroughfare basically taking up about half the width. It was there for at least the hour I spent. Then down the other end of town there's the bit that should be pedestianised and looks like it is, but isn't due to numpty business owners, who apparantly are worried that somebody driving past might see something they might want to buy (I have it on good authority that this is actually true!)

magicbastarder

they've removed the pedestrianisation from new street in malahide, too.

Tombo2001

magicbastarder wrote: »

again, i think this is a facet of the same problem; my issue was i would not draw a causal link as cannon did, between that mindless thuggery and the (calculated) nonsense PK and his ilk get up to. the deliveroo cyclists were attacked because they're an exposed marginalised group, just as that chap up on the dublin mountains was by those guys in the car.

the guys attacking deliveroo cyclists were not attacking them because of what was being said about cyclists on a radio station for frustrated commuters sitting in their cars in rush hour. the root of the issue is that those guys attacked him because they knew they'd get away with it, and PK does it because it drives listeners, and he gets paid for it.

it's kinda funny to see how some of this stuff operates; what was possibly/probably intended to be a joke poster about dryrobes at the forty foot gained legs to make it onto national media and drive *actual* dislike of people who were doing nothing objectionable.
maybe i'm putting my cranky old man hat on here, but there always has been an element in irish society of mistrusting people who 'choose' to be different. cutting down the tallest daisy, etc.; i'd see both the media stance on cyclists, and thuggish attacks on cyclists as a reflection on that.

For me, Deliveroo hits a sweet spot of segments of society that its socially acceptable to "complain" about.....

Cyclist, Lower Income Workers, Immigrant.

(Note - I am not saying there is a public discourse of resentment towards lower income workers, but - it is quite common for people to talk down to shop staff or treat them badly.

And while I amnt comparing the two - there is most certainly a public discourse of resentment towards both cyclists and towards immigrants, within the media and particularly within social media - this website being a particularly guilty party).

I suppose you can make the argument that there is no connection between all the social media whingeing I have seen about Deliveroo cyclists, and the fact that they get attacked by gougers. I would see them as being related.