Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

Tell me how

Mundo7976 wrote: »

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/irish-farm-group-reminds-cyclists-of-their-responsibilities-to-tractors-large-vehicles/

If that had been framed as a joint initiative with farmers similarly being advised about certain things such as leaving enough room when overtaking, not pulling out on road too quickly, considering the swing radius of equipment which sticks out behind tractors etc it would haven't been a bad thing.

But it obviously comes across as shifting responsibility. I hope cycling Ireland made this point.

Large bottle small glass

Mundo7976 wrote: »

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/irish-farm-group-reminds-cyclists-of-their-responsibilities-to-tractors-large-vehicles/

It would be more in their line to focus on
*The extraordinarily long working hours of their employees, especially at this time of year
*Your average modern contractors tractor and trailer units probably have doubled in weight over the last 20 odd years along with an significant increase in top speed. That's a huge increase in momentum and potential damage. 16yr olds car drive them without any training.
*Tractors are involved in a disproportionate number of fatal and serious accidents both on road and in private land
*Section 76 of the roads Act isn't optional.

In saying that your average urban cyclist would be pretty clueless around tractors and should be mindful and give them a wide berth.

I don't know how contractors make a living though. I recently spoke to a plant contract who's new tractor at a discount was €170k ex VAT. Millions tied up in machinery flying around the countryside for a couple of months every year must be a tight margin game.

Then try and collect off farmers!

magicbastarder

there's a field about 50m from the parents in law, leased out to someone so they don't know who's actually farming it, but whoever it was taking the piss; the road was regularly covered in large lumps of muck and stones, to the point where you'd be weaving at times to avoid them, even in the car.
but they dropped some boxes of veg around to the ten people or so who live on the road after someone complained, which was seen as a nice gesture.
bollocks to that. the veg probably cost them literally a few euro.

Seth Brundle

Ongoing case so I'll just point towards the details in the Irish Times and refrain from making any personal comments on it...

Cyclists recount vehicle speeding on wrong side of road before fatal collision
Vehicle speed seemed ‘excessive’, appeared to accelerate as it came around bend, court hears

Members of a Dublin cycling club have described how a car came around a bend towards them partly on their side of the road seconds before a collision which killed one of their group four years ago.

A sitting of Naas Circuit Criminal Court heard evidence from several members of Orwell Wheelers Cycling Club in Dundrum who recalled being startled at how the vehicle had crossed over a continuous white line at speed.

Kevin Hutchinson (29) of Roberstown West, Robertstown, Co Kildare has pleaded not guilty to a charge of dangerous driving causing the death of Tonya McEvoy on February 12th, 2019 at Rathcoffey, Co Kildare.
...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/cyclists-recount-vehicle-speeding-on-wrong-side-of-road-before-fatal-collision-1.4575187?mode=amp

buffalo

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Ongoing case so I'll just point towards the details in the Irish Times and refrain from making any personal comments on it...

I'm not sure how they got the year wrong - it was 2017, not 2019. 4+ years to reach court.

magicbastarder

weird, i had in my head that that had already been done and dusted legally.

buffalo

magicbastarder wrote: »

weird, i had in my head that that had already been done and dusted legally.

I figured that the DPP had decided there wasn't enough to bring a case because nothing had happened.

The Indo article has detail from other witnesses, paints a more complete picture than the Times' filler piece.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/car-came-around-bend-dangerously-fastbefore-death-of-cyclist-tonya-mcevoy-drivers-trial-hears-40469497.html

magicbastarder

i know a chap in orwell who mentioned one or two details he'd heard at the time which seemed to suggest the gardai were handling the case well.

GabbaTheHutt

Can we ask that we don’t discuss this case at the moment please? As it is currently before the courts it’s really important that nothing is seen to bias any decision .

It has been scheduled and postponed several times since the incident - covid and other reasons, so hopefully have some conclusion for the family and all involved soon.

Duckjob

https://www.newstalk.com/news/suvs-are-anti-social-monstrosities-that-should-be-banned-form-irish-cities-paul-murphy-1201127

Can be heard on todays listen back.

I don't agree with Paul Murphy on a great many things, but I'm glad he spoke out on "CarTalk" about this.

eeeee

GabbaTheHutt wrote: »

Can we ask that we don’t discuss this case at the moment please? As it is currently before the courts it’s really important that nothing is seen to bias any decision .

It has been scheduled and postponed several times since the incident - covid and other reasons, so hopefully have some conclusion for the family and all involved soon.

Mod note: Gonna delete posts about it from now on in thread.

Duckjob

Duckjob wrote: »

https://www.newstalk.com/news/suvs-are-anti-social-monstrosities-that-should-be-banned-form-irish-cities-paul-murphy-1201127

Can be heard on todays listen back.

I don't agree with Paul Murphy on a great many things, but I'm glad he spoke out on "CarTalk" about this.

Admittedly, I'm not a huge fan of Paul Murphy, but I do have to agree with him that SUVs should be banned from cities and most people should be discouraged from buying them as they are unnecessary. I have no problem with farmers or those who need to carry tools and equipment, owning them. However, there an unnecessary extravagance for every other person.

I don't know why they bothered. Having the Irish car parking guy on the radio as well, like he was going to have any other opinion than stick with the status quo.

zell12

Duckjob wrote: »

https://www.newstalk.com/news/suvs-are-anti-social-monstrosities-that-should-be-banned-form-irish-cities-paul-murphy-1201127

Presenter: "I'd much prefer to be hit by a bike at thirty kilometres an hour than a range rover"

and a stat: 40% of new UK cars are SUVs :eek:
Paul Murphy talking sense about pedestrianisation, free/subsidised mass transit

Duckjob

zell12 wrote: »

Presenter: "I'd much prefer to be hit by a bike at thirty kilometres an hour than a range rover"

and a stat: 40% of new UK cars are SUVs :eek:
Paul Murphy talking sense about pedestrianisation, free/subsidised mass transit

I know, I'm scared too

I was also sure there would be the usual angry "but cyclists...." and "road tax" texts read out afterwards but I didn't hear any. Maybe times are finally changing.

Paddigol

What's the beef with SUVs? Is the issue not engine size? Why should an average SUV be banned from cities and people discouraged from buying them, but an Audi A7 is fine?

zell12

Paddigol wrote: »

What's the beef with SUVs? Is the issue not engine size? Why should an average SUV be banned from cities and people discouraged from buying them, but an Audi A7 is fine?

It's in the Newstalk written link
https://www.newstalk.com/news/suvs-are-anti-social-monstrosities-that-should-be-banned-form-irish-cities-paul-murphy-1201127

Stark

A pedestrian is much more likely to be killed by an SUV travelling at the same speed than by a car with a more traditional lower sloped bonnet.

magicbastarder

the problem is that there's no clear point at which a car becomes an SUV.
my main issue with SUVs is height. if the average pedestrian cannot see over a car, that's an issue.

Paddigol

zell12 wrote: »

It's in the Newstalk written link
https://www.newstalk.com/news/suvs-are-anti-social-monstrosities-that-should-be-banned-form-irish-cities-paul-murphy-1201127

Hmmm. Gotta say I disagree with most of what is there. You can't argue with facts, but you know what they say about statistics. And a lot of what he's saying is just generalised nonsense.

It goes back to my point about engine size - "SUVs consume more energy...", surely it's based on engine size and efficiencies. The article doesn't go into detail. Am I to believe that a new, small engined mid sized SUV consumes more energy than an Audi A7? If it's about the 'Green' angle, what's his plan for the dirty old bangers on our roads? What about classic cars? Should be ban engines over a certain size? Nobody needs an SUV? But a modern sports car? Porsches, top end BMWs, Audis...

Its all a bit silly and pure drum banging by Paul Murphy. There's so many basic, simple ways to curb the impact of cars on our environment. Ban diesel? Limit engine size (max 1ltr)? Mandatory speed limiters (max 120km)?

"Anti-social mostrosities" is just silly, nonsensical (and typical of the man) hyperbole.

SUVs are more dangerous - its drivers who are more dangerous. Its the lad doing the close pass in his Golf, or driving 2ft from your rear bumper, or overtaking on a blind corner that's more dangerous, not the Golf. I don't see any link to sources in the article, but again, as we've seen with the report on eScooter injuries, some findings need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Electric v SUVs - there are electric SUVs.

Visibility - again, where's the evidence? Every model has a different design, so I'm not sure how that's even calculated. I've driven plenty types of car and I can't say I've noticed any lack of visibility in an SUV.

From what I've seen in the past, a lot of people bash SUVs out of some sort of reverse class snobbery.

For the most part, cars aren't the problem, its the drivers and the car culture that are the problem.

I'm all for (really all for) banning cars from towns and cities. But to target one type of car is really missing (and distracting from) the point.

And again, just stop speeding, have a bit of respect for fellow road users, and it doesn't matter what car you're driving, you probably won't harm anyone.

Just seems to me Paul Murphy is trying be seen as the socialist/ man of the people.

Hurrache

Deleted User wrote: »

Admittedly, I'm not a huge fan of Paul Murphy, but I do have to agree with him that SUVs should be banned from cities and most people should be discouraged from buying them as they are unnecessary. I have no problem with farmers or those who need to carry tools and equipment, owning them. However, there an unnecessary extravagance for every other person.

I don't know why they bothered. Having the Irish car parking guy on the radio as well, like he was going to have any other opinion than stick with the status quo.

I don't own one, but they'd really need to define what an SUV is. Many of what people call SUVs have a smaller footprint than a large saloon or estate, they've become a bit of a bogey man because of the buzzword people use to classify them and there's a bit of an overreaching push to ban them because they're 'SUVs'.

Take the highly popular and common Qashqais, Renautlt and Hyundai cars, I wouldn't call them SUVs, but they're the type that people want to ban, despite them not being particularly big nor poor on energy consumption.

buffalo

Paddigol wrote: »

SUVs are more dangerous - its drivers who are more dangerous. Its the lad doing the close pass in his Golf, or driving 2ft from your rear bumper, or overtaking on a blind corner that's more dangerous, not the Golf. I don't see any link to sources in the article, but again, as we've seen with the report on eScooter injuries, some findings need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

SUVs are more dangerous - the higher front profile creates a bigger blind spot and is more likely to kill or seriously injure pedestrians, due to where the impact will be on the human body and the nature of the impact (full transfer of momentum rather than a roll onto the bonnet).

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41420531_Do_Light_Truck_Vehicles_LTV_Impose_Greater_Risk_of_Pedestrian_Injury_Than_Passenger_Cars_A_Meta-analysis_and_Systematic_Review

Thus, the risk for pedestrians of sustaining fatal injury is 50 percent greater in collisions with LTVs than in collisions with conventional cars.

There's a threshold of what's an SUV/LTV, but that shouldn't blur the facts that SUV features create more danger for pedestrians and others.

Paddigol

Thanks buffalo. This isn't really a debate I want to get involved in as I've no beef one way or the other (other than a desire to see a common sense and balanced approach taken to road usage), but are there any statistics regarding actual deaths caused by SUVs?

I do get the point that you can't ban a certain cohort of people from driving because statistically I'm more likely to be killed/ injured by a car driven by one of them. And I do get that we should strive for safer roads. But I just think going after the SUVs isn't the best way of achieving that.

Again, if speed is the primary reason for most RTAs, why isn't this the first thing to be targeted?

People buy SUVs for a number of practical reasons - I'm not sure there's any practical reason for buying a turbo boosted sports car.

Do I want Ferraris/ classic 60's MG sportscars etc banned from our roads? No. Do I want the see speed taken seriously by the car industry and the legislature? Yes.

If it was anyone other than Paul the Populist banging this drum I probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid. But IMO SUVs are the wrong first target to go for in trying to improve road safety. If we end up at the point where they're the next thing to go, fine.

magicbastarder

here's a simple enough test - if i am walking around town and have to step out from behind a car to cross the road - if that car is taller than me (and some SUVs are six foot tall), i'm at a double disadvantage visibility wise. i cannot see over the car, so my ability to see other traffic is impaired. and possibly more crucially, those drivers cannot see me until i step out from behind the car.

magicbastarder

Queen's Brian May says cycling 'saved his life' after heart attack
https://www.irishmirror.ie/showbiz/celebrity-news/queens-brian-admits-cycling-saved-24184578

Hurrache

So what do we do about vans and trucks etc which are substantially taller? Strict times of when they're allowed in the city, or last mile of using cargo bikes and so on?

Seth Brundle

A twitter user contacted RTE about using the term "accident" to describe a collision. This is RTE's response...



https://twitter.com/Carrolljoseph/status/1397847458701586434

magicbastarder

Hurrache wrote: »

So what do we do about vans and trucks etc which are substantially taller? Strict times of when they're allowed in the city, or last mile of using cargo bikes and so on?

i don't mind vans and trucks because generally they need to be taller. someone driving a range rover usually does not need a car that tall.

you're going to need to allow tradespeople who are not delivery people in and out of the city.

zell12

In fairness, RTE have been using alternatives for a while
Two die, two other people injured in Co Louth crash
Man dies following two-car collision in Co Meath
Man dies, woman injured in Antrim road crash
Man in his 40s dies following Dublin road collision

Though in Gaeilge, you always hear 'timpiste bóthair' every single time. Really gets to me, even when you plead guilty to manslaughter it is a timpiste bóthair
Beirt fhear maraithe i dtimpistí bóthair éagsúla
Pléadáileann fear ciontach i ndúnorgain maidir le timpiste bóthair

Mentioned before about there being an explosion in the number of Ford Rangers and similar around us. The majority seem to have no need of them, as in there is never anything in the back of them. One tows a small trailer with tools in it ffs, another works in a Pharmacy and takes up 2 spaces outside it everyday.

I'll give the guy in the blue Ranger I see sometimes a pass as he always has 2 adorable old English sheep dogs on board.

Hurrache

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't mind vans and trucks because generally they need to be taller. someone driving a range rover usually does not need a car that tall.

you're going to need to allow tradespeople who are not delivery people in and out of the city.

That's my point re trades people and deliveries, I agree on that.

But I still think there's a mishmash of what an SUV is and why they should be banned, size, height, economy? It also seems that those giant crew cabs are getting ignored, they've really taken a high jump in size compared to what we've had here for years, definitely heading in the American pickup direction.