Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

beauf

tomasrojo wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Pidge/status/1281621235865190406

Pretty bad really.

Paint for double yellow lines is too expensive for the OPW apparently.

Or a line of cones.

tomasrojo

I never really know because some rules that apply normal streets and roads don't apply to parks, but you're not legally allowed to park on footways normally, yellow lines or not.

Are those commuter's cars or people visiting the park ?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Are those commuter's cars or people visiting the park ?

Does it really matter? Its rendered the park virtually unusable for a lot of folk.

Try bringing a buggy/pram/wheelchair/mobility scooter/young child on a bike etc, into that park. See how long you stay

Its a farce of the highest order

tomasrojo

He says the area was quiet before they re-opened the side gates, but I don't know if that means anything about them being commuters.

tomasrojo

Deleted User wrote: »

Does it really matter? Its rendered the park virtually unusable for a lot of folk.

Try bringing a buggy/pram/wheelchair/mobility scooter/young child on a bike etc, into that park. See how long you stay

Its a farce of the highest order

Yeah, as someone who spent a few years pushing a buggy around, this sort of thing really bothers me.

Mercian Pro

Deleted User wrote: »

Are those commuter's cars or people visiting the park ?

Looks like the one-way section from near the Magazine Fort down to the Islandbridge gate. There is a bus stop just outside the gate. I very much doubt that anyone would park there if they just wanted to enjoy the amenities of the Park.


The RTE interview is at https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/21801038 Neasa Hourigan came across well and made some good points. Sarah McInerney said she sounded like she was in opposition! Will Eamon Ryan express an opinion, keep his head down or toe the Government line and back O'Donovan?

Incidently, the only Covid related measure still in place is the parking ban on Chesterfield Avenue. The cones on part of the North Road that gave extra space to pedestrians are now gone.

Chips Lovell

tomasrojo wrote: »

Yeah, as someone who spent a few years pushing a buggy around, this sort of thing really bothers me.

I think I've said it here before, but it was only after I became a parent with a double buggy that I realised how crappy parking can make life hell for wheelchair users. The amount of times people park half up on the footpath, when then don't even need to with plenty of room on the road, is unreal. It means that you, with your buggy and two young kids have to go out on the road to get around the car.

As for the status of Road Traffic law in the park, I'm not sure. There are Phoenix Park By-Laws, but they are brief and vague. They don't clarify whether Road Traffic Law applies in the Park or whether the roads there are "private" roads under the aegis of the OPW.

What I can say is that in seven years of daily commuting through the park I've never seen any kind of active enforcement, either of parking (ticketing or clamping) or speeding.

Weepsie

I've been commuting into city centre for last 2 months now as I've been back in work
While there are definitely more commuting at present, there still isn't the volume that would make parking in the car and walking in an even remotely sensible idea.

That's the kind of sh!t you see during bloom and stuff.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Does it really matter? Its rendered the park virtually unusable for a lot of folk.

Try bringing a buggy/pram/wheelchair/mobility scooter/young child on a bike etc, into that park. See how long you stay

Its a farce of the highest order

Of course not, but as someone who is not familiar with the area and as a pram pusher I was curious as to the reason for the cars there.

tomasrojo

https://irishcycle.com/2020/07/11/phoenix-park-gates-decision-taken-by-minister-odonovan-against-advice-from-officials/

The OPW officials were opposed to the move.

buffalo

Weepsie wrote: »

I've been commuting into city centre for last 2 months now as I've been back in work
While there are definitely more commuting at present, there still isn't the volume that would make parking in the car and walking in an even remotely sensible idea.

That's the kind of sh!t you see during bloom and stuff.

Plenty of people certainly used to park on Chesterfield Avenue and cycle in.

Bloody cyclists, ruining it for everyone.

NasserShammaz

A lot of commuters from outside dublin in areas surrounded by open spaces parking in one of the only large open spaces in close to the city...

Just back from the park around the cross already the small roads are parked up... but there's not too many people about running walking..... so is it just f#ckin city shoppers

beauf

NasserShammaz wrote: »

A lot of commuters from outside dublin in areas surrounded by open spaces parking in one of the only large open spaces in close to the city...

Just back from the park around the cross already the small roads are parked up... but there's not too many people about running walking..... so is it just f#ckin city shoppers

It makes zero sense to park at cross and go shopping in the city. Like none.

Its just looks like they aren't in the park, but its a big place. Usually people park and don't just walk in circles around their car. They might to a 30~60 min walk or run. They just aren't near their car.

Its a Sat. The whole commuter parking argument is completely over stated.

beauf

Note to anyone answering this poll the poll is opposite to the headline...

https://www.thejournal.ie/phoenix-park-gates-poll-5147534-Jul2020/


..nice journalism :rolleyes:

AndrewJRenko

tomasrojo wrote: »

https://irishcycle.com/2020/07/11/phoenix-park-gates-decision-taken-by-minister-odonovan-against-advice-from-officials/

The OPW officials were opposed to the move.

If they were opposed to it, they should have said 'No Minister' and done the right thing. The Minister doesn't get to make operational decisions.

tomasrojo

Michael Pidgeon asking people to get writing:

Friends,

We're facing a major loss of the progress we've made in the Phoenix Park.

Minister Patrick O'Donovan instructed park rangers to reopen the side gates to the Phoenix Park to cars on Friday morning.

Within hours, this has made our wonderful park so much worse. You can see from this video how cars are already dominating the park.

It makes you ask the question - is this park or a car park?

We need to urgently send a message to the Minister that this is the wrong decision. The park needs fewer cars, not more.

I'm asking you to take just one minute to email Minister Patrick O'Donovan at the OPW - patrick.odonovan@oireachtas.ie - calling on him to reverse the decision.

It doesn't have to be a long email - just let him know how much you want to see the park returned to people, not just cars.

Our demand is simple: a quieter, calmer, less polluted park.

Thank you!

Cllr. Michael Pidgeon

PS - feel free to share this email to anyone you think who agrees!

Mercian Pro

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If they were opposed to it, they should have said 'No Minister' and done the right thing. The Minister doesn't get to make operational decisions.

What! Where have you been living?

Moflojo

beauf wrote: »

Its just looks like they aren't in the park, but its a big place. Usually people park and don't just walk in circles around their car. They might to a 30~60 min walk or run. They just aren't near their car.

Not being funny, but if you're going for a 30-60 minute walk or run anyway, why not just spend the extra 5 minutes looking for a legal parking space that doesn't impede other park users?

beauf

Moflojo wrote: »

Not being funny, but if you're going for a 30-60 minute walk or run anyway, why not just spend the extra 5 minutes looking for a legal parking space that doesn't impede other park users?

The post that this is context just said there were lots of cars on the small roads. Not that they were parked "illegally" or even on the grass. You're just assuming that. The small roads near the Cross are valid for parking AFAIK.

If the OPW want to stop this, they can though. They choose not to.

Breezer

tomasrojo wrote: »

Michael Pidgeon asking people to get writing:

Done.

KevRossi

beauf wrote: »

The post that this is context just said there were lots of cars on the small roads. Not that they were parked "illegally" or even on the grass. You're just assuming that. The small roads near the Cross are valid for parking AFAIK.

If the OPW want to stop this, they can though. They choose not to.

I was up there yesterday and today. Cars are parked illegally in several places; mostly down to people refusing to walk the extra 200-300m.

The OPW is not going to go against a Ministerial order, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot. Again, Patrick O'Donovan has done a solo run on this without consulting any stakeholders.

wowy

Parking (pun 100% intended) the consistent issue of non-enforcement against illegal parking in the park to one side, what; if any; consultation was there when the decision was made to close the gates?

I've no doubt that the outcome of this imminent consultation* will lead to a permanent closure of gates and changes to traffic management in the park and the surrounding area (which will require consultation with DCC). But there exists a proper consultation and planning process that needs to be followed prior to making the permanent changes re gates/access/traffic that are sought, and no such process was followed when the gates were originally closed on a temporary basis.

*Before anyone suggests the consultation the OPW had last year - that did not include specific traffic management proposals, nor include proposed changes in the DCC roads outside the park, so the feedback from that general consultation could not be relied on for permanent specific planning and traffic management changes.

tomasrojo

wowy wrote: »

Parking (pun 100% intended) the consistent issue of non-enforcement against illegal parking in the park to one side, what; if any; consultation was there when the decision was made to close the gates?

I've no doubt that the outcome of this imminent consultation* will lead to a permanent closure of gates and changes to traffic management in the park and the surrounding area (which will require consultation with DCC). But there exists a proper consultation and planning process that needs to be followed prior to making the permanent changes re gates/access/traffic that are sought, and no such process was followed when the gates were originally closed on a temporary basis.

It was an emergency. The emergency isn't actually over. Now we have no social distancing plan for the park.

And rat-running isn't a constitutional right.

Weepsie

tomasrojo wrote: »

It was an emergency. The emergency isn't actually over. Now we have no social distancing plan for the park.

And rat-running isn't a constitutional right.

This. We are in the midst of an unprecedent global pancddemic. There was little to no traffic on the road in the first place. Enabling social distancing buy widening where people could walk and cycle was the reason. It didn't and shouldn't have needed consultation to close gates as the negative impact was close to nil in reality.


Now, they should have done some consultation before reopening them however. They should have looked long and hard at alternatives to reopening gates.

There are plenty of routes that don't require going into the park, it's a shortcut and no more. Castleknock is still a pinch point, always will be. Close the castleknock gate, and you don't need to have the lights to control the junction because it becomes a single road and in theory should just flow normally.


The ashtown gate is another that always

becomes a pinch point (and also the one near the Hole in the wall, as people use them to cut in and out, and not just to come and enjoy the park, They can cause tailbacks out to the Navan Road Roundabout and Blackhorse avenue.


I'd rather have a larger volume of traffic going on fewer routes and flowing more freely, than having lots of rat runs, that then produces lots of pinch points, and requires lots of lights that are routinely ignored and causes further delays.

Chesterfield Avenue has been closed to traffic routinely anyway with not much a murmur.

A summer long trial at the very least should have been done. People get used to alternative routes.

tomasrojo

Yeah, a traffic flow plan and a social distancing plan are required, but this hasty announcement that basically said "The only reason we're not opening all the gates is because there are works in progress on one gate" is very strange, and totally at odds with the stated intention of a few days previous.

And the Minister then goes on to say that children will be returning to schools soon, as if that explains a hasty volte-face announced at three thirty in the afternoon the morning before the re-opening ... IN JULY.

AndrewJRenko

KevRossi wrote: »

The OPW is not going to go against a Ministerial order, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot.

Why wouldn't they say no to the Minister? Ministers generally don't get to make operational decisions.

Is the Minister going to decide on the design of the next flood avoidance scheme, or the building frame design for their next office build? Why would he be allowed to decide this?

Mercian Pro

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why wouldn't they say no to the Minister? Ministers generally don't get to make operational decisions.

Government Departments and Offices are dependant on the Government of the day for their funding and support for policy initiatives. Without the support of their own Minister, they will be starved of resources and could well find major areas hived of to other Departments. If you think saying no to a Minister works, consider the recent decision to reopen Stepaside Garda Station. Not only was the Minister involved in a different Department and political party and the Garda Commissioner allegedly independent of the Dept of Justice, the GS was still reopened purely for political and not operational reasons.

Tenzor07

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Government Departments and Offices are dependant on the Government of the day for their funding and support for policy initiatives. Without the support of their own Minister, they will be starved of resources and could well find major areas hived of to other Departments. If you think saying no to a Minister works, consider the recent decision to reopen Stepaside Garda Station. Not only was the Minister involved in a different Department and political party and the Garda Commissioner allegedly independent of the Dept of Justice, the GS was still reopened purely for political and not operational reasons.

Well, the Greens are also in Govt. now so I would hope that the decision can be reversed, keep the park closed to through traffic...

When I read this:

Mr O’Donovan said the park was a ”thoroughfare” for some commuters driving from Longford, Westmeath, Meath

Can we not remove the through traffic and not just allow it for someone who lives 130km's away who wants a quick way out of Dublin?

AndrewJRenko

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Government Departments and Offices are dependant on the Government of the day for their funding and support for policy initiatives. Without the support of their own Minister, they will be starved of resources and could well find major areas hived of to other Departments. If you think saying no to a Minister works, consider the recent decision to reopen Stepaside Garda Station. Not only was the Minister involved in a different Department and political party and the Garda Commissioner allegedly independent of the Dept of Justice, the GS was still reopened purely for political and not operational reasons.

I'm aware of the realpolitik involved, and there is indeed some truth in it.

But why couldn't they just say No? If he wants to cut their funding, then so be it - let him be responsible for the outcomes.

I suspect they let him away with it, and then leaked to let it be known that it was his decision, not theirs, which is a bit of a cowards way out.

https://irishcycle.com/2020/07/11/phoenix-park-gates-decision-taken-by-minister-odonovan-against-advice-from-officials/