Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

plodder

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Well, the Greens are also in Govt. now so I would hope that the decision can be reversed, keep the park closed to through traffic...

When I read this:

Mr O’Donovan said the park was a ”thoroughfare” for some commuters driving from Longford, Westmeath, Meath

Can we not remove the through traffic and not just allow it for someone who lives 130km's away who wants a quick way out of Dublin?

It sounds like Leo V pulled a fast one with his party colleague, bypassing the government.

But, that quote from the minister sounds like a joke. A park is a thoroughfare for commuters from half way across the country? As if driving that distance to work every day isn't bad enough environmentally, you have to top it off by driving through a park. Adding insult to injury. I see Una Mullally has an article in today's Irish Times about it. It's behind the paywall but

Una Mullally: Phoenix Park travesty is a litmus test for the Greens

If they roll over on decision to allow traffic to return, FG and FF will have their measure.

seems to be the gist of it.

KevRossi

Mr O’Donovan said the park was a ”thoroughfare” for some commuters driving from Longford, Westmeath, Meath

Nobody from Longford or Westmeath goes through the Phoenix Park on a commute. You take the N4, then the Chapelizod bypass. Along with that, they don't use the side gates, with the exception of Ashtown.

You also need to question why society has people commuting on from those areas, and why they have to resort to driving, but that's part of a wider discussion.

magicbastarder

i'm currently debating with a chap on twitter who is arguing that he has a right to drive *through* the park so he can enjoy the scenery from his car.

beats working, i guess.

Mercian Pro

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I suspect they let him away with it, and then leaked to let it be known that it was his decision, not theirs, which is a bit of a cowards way out.

From Una Mullally's piece in the Irish Times:
"On Friday the OPW press office sent me a joint statement from them and the Minister when I queried the decision. It said: “Having weighed up the arguments of the complex issue of traffic in the Phoenix Park, Minister O’Donovan concluded that the correct course of action for now was to reopen the perimeter gates.” So we know that O’Donovan made the decision."


Not particularly cowardly but more telling it like it is (which is most unusual!)

buffalo

plodder wrote: »

It sounds like Leo V pulled a fast one with his party colleague, bypassing the government.

My first thought on reading that was that I'd missed Leos I through IV.

Truthvader

Delighted some cop on brought to the situation. Cycling loons have got their own way far too much. You cant shut down the whole city to indulge your fantasy lifestyle

magicbastarder

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Well, the Greens are also in Govt. now so I would hope that the decision can be reversed, keep the park closed to through traffic...

FF and FG must be loving this. they made the decision to reopen the park, but it's the greens who will take the political heat for it.

plodder

buffalo wrote: »

My first thought on reading that was that I'd missed Leos I through IV.

You can't beat a bit of pontifical intrigue. According to wikipedia, the other Leo V was "deposed and murdered".

tomasrojo

Interesting point about commuters from further afield and quality of life in Castleknock. Don't know whether it's true.
https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1282578698009542657

Seth Brundle

Truthvader wrote: »

Delighted some cop on brought to the situation. Cycling loons have got their own way far too much. You cant shut down the whole city to indulge your fantasy lifestyle

How have the "cycling loons" got their own way "far too much"?

magicbastarder

mod note - if you think someone is trolling, report it and leave it to the mods to act.

Tenzor07

magicbastarder wrote: »

FF and FG must be loving this. they made the decision to reopen the park, but it's the greens who will take the political heat for it.

Well, they took the heat for all the mistakes in Govt. when John Gormley was the Green party leader.

Anyways, the current minister for the OPW could have been told by the person in charge of the Park in the OPW that they wouldn't reopen the park to through traffic, and what could he do really?

Weepsie

Something else that grates about O'Donovan's "reasons". Why would a Limerick TD have concerns about Longford, Westmeath and Meath commuters? He replaced Kevin Moran who was a TD for Longford and Westmeath who didn't even seem to use this as a bogus reason.

He's also been in the job for what, 2 weeks.

O''Donovan has shown himself to be a complete moron in the past when he wanted to ban open source browsers. He's well suited to Irish politics. and is just comepletely out of touch with what is for the greater good.

tomasrojo

Weepsie wrote: »

O''Donovan has shown himself to be a complete moron in the past when he wanted to ban open source browsers.

I missed this. Just looked it up. Jesus.

I'm typing this on an open-source browser, as it happens. I hope I don't end up in the narcotrafficking trade.

AndrewJRenko

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Anyways, the current minister for the OPW could have been told by the person in charge of the Park in the OPW that they wouldn't reopen the park to through traffic, and what could he do really?

My point exactly.

Mercian Pro

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

My point exactly.

OPW lost a number of its functions in the past when the then Government decided not to support it on operational issues. Maybe they don't want to see the National Parks & Wildlife section transferred to Heritage?

The fact that they twice responded positively to pressure from cyclists and others to keep the gates closed despite complaints from the motorists of west Dublin (and Westmeath??) indicates they are more pro-cycling than their current Minister.

tomasrojo

I wonder whether this contradiction hinges on "I was lobbied by my party leader's *office* not my party leader":
https://twitter.com/dublincycling/status/1282654852967956484

beggars_bush

KevRossi wrote: »

Nobody from Longford or Westmeath goes through the Phoenix Park on a commute. You take the N4, then the Chapelizod bypass. Along with that, they don't use the side gates, with the exception of Ashtown.

You also need to question why society has people commuting on from those areas, and why they have to resort to driving, but that's part of a wider discussion.

A lot of people in westmeath and longford drive out through summerhill in Meath and onwards.
Chapelizod is a car park in the evenings

KevRossi

beggars_bush wrote: »

A lot of people in westmeath and longford drive out through summerhill in Meath and onwards.
Chapelizod is a car park in the evenings

I'm assuming he meant Cavan, Meath, Monaghan. I'm not going to nit pick.

Fact is, those people did not use the side entrances, they used Castleknock, maybe Ashtown, Parkgate St and that was it. The main avenue was never closed. They would never have been hindered. The argument we have here is to keep the smaller gates closed, stop the rat runs and make more space for cyclists and pedestrians. O'Donovan has thrown this idea out with zero consultation.

He also said he had to take into account the 3,000 people who work there, they were not being affected by the gates being shut, my cousin works in Garda HQ and he said it hasn't changed during lockdown, if anything it's better as there's no traffic joining from side roads; he lives in Blanchardstown.

I was in the Park on Saturday and Sunday, sure the weather was overcast and this affects numbers, but there were a lot less people on the side roads than before and very few families out cycling. For a few weeks, you cycled in the middle of your lane with the knowledge that no cars were coming behind, and the very few that were, were slowing down due to critical mass.

The situation today, is that cars have full priority, cyclists are pushed to the edges and cars have noticeably picked up speed. I wouldn't take a child on a bike anywhere and everywhere in the Park these days; I'd limit them to a couple of short stretches of closed off road. That's a damming thing to say about a 720 hecatre city park.

MojoMaker

Well said Kev

Birdie Num Num

KevRossi wrote: »

I'm assuming he meant Cavan, Meath, Monaghan. I'm not going to nit pick.

Fact is, those people did not use the side entrances, they used Castleknock, maybe Ashtown, Parkgate St and that was it. The main avenue was never closed. They would never have been hindered. The argument we have here is to keep the smaller gates closed, stop the rat runs and make more space for cyclists and pedestrians. O'Donovan has thrown this idea out with zero consultation.

He also said he had to take into account the 3,000 people who work there, they were not being affected by the gates being shut, my cousin works in Garda HQ and he said it hasn't changed during lockdown, if anything it's better as there's no traffic joining from side roads; he lives in Blanchardstown.

I was in the Park on Saturday and Sunday, sure the weather was overcast and this affects numbers, but there were a lot less people on the side roads than before and very few families out cycling. For a few weeks, you cycled in the middle of your lane with the knowledge that no cars were coming behind, and the very few that were, were slowing down due to critical mass.

The situation today, is that cars have full priority, cyclists are pushed to the edges and cars have noticeably picked up speed. I wouldn't take a child on a bike anywhere and everywhere in the Park these days; I'd limit them to a couple of short stretches of closed off road. That's a damming thing to say about a 720 hecatre city park.

That’s right call it something it isn’t. It’s a reversal of a decision that had no consultation in the first place.

And Pedestrians and cyclists always get priority in public parks over cars. And rightly so.

tomasrojo

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

That’s right call it something it isn’t. It’s a reversal of a decision that had no consultation in the first place.

There is very little scope for consultation during an emergency, wouldn't you agree? Can't really consult all shareholders over several weeks.

The emergency isn't over either.

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

And Pedestrians and cyclists always get priority in public parks over cars. And rightly so.

How many pedestrian crossings are on Chesterfield Avenue? Roughly will do.

KevRossi

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

That’s right call it something it isn’t. It’s a reversal of a decision that had no consultation in the first place.

And Pedestrians and cyclists always get priority in public parks over cars. And rightly so.

The OPW rangers, wildlife experts based in the park and locals* are all in favour of keeping the side gates closed. They have all attested to this over the past few months and how much the park wildlife has benefited from the closures.

That's apart from the huge surge in numbers of people using the park over the past 3 months; that speaks for itself.

There are, (possibly) two places in the whole of the park where non-motorists have priority over cars, in every other place cars have full priority. There are, bizarrely, no official crossing spots on Chesterfield Ave. try crossing the road as one adult with 2 small kids, it's difficult and downright dangerous. It's madness to have that in a recreational park.

There are bike parking racks in 4 spots in the park where you can park 10 bikes each, so do me a favour and don't try to tell me that pedestrians and cyclists are catered for more than cars in the Phoenix Park.

Then, of course you have the likes of this to contend with all the time;
Note that the car cannot legally be clamped, towed or fined. You can dump it wherever you want with no repercussions.

The Park should be for everybody, not just for motorists.



*Stoneybatter and NCR residents groups from what I am aware of.

tomasrojo

KevRossi wrote: »

*Stoneybatter and NCR residents groups from what I am aware of.

I notice another trope that's emerged, that locals "selfishly" want to keep this "national resource" to themselves.

tomasrojo

KevRossi wrote: »

There are, bizarrely, no official crossing spots on Chesterfield Ave. try crossing the road as one adult with 2 small kids, it's difficult and downright dangerous. It's madness to have that in a recreational park.

And try it while wheeling a buggy at the court of justice end, as I often had to do. A sprint, followed by doing a wheelie with the buggy to get the front wheels high enough to lever the rear wheels up over the kerb.

Nice pedestrian priority there.

KevRossi

So it's Monday, first Monday after the side gates are open, it's the school holidays, in the middle of an economic crisis.... and Chapelizod is still chocablock with traffic. So that didn't work Minister.




parktraffic1.PNG

parktraffic2.PNG

Birdie Num Num

KevRossi wrote: »

The OPW rangers, wildlife experts based in the park and locals* are all in favour of keeping the side gates closed. They have all attested to this over the past few months and how much the park wildlife has benefited from the closures.

That's apart from the huge surge in numbers of people using the park over the past 3 months; that speaks for itself.

There are, (possibly) two places in the whole of the park where non-motorists have priority over cars, in every other place cars have full priority. There are, bizarrely, no official crossing spots on Chesterfield Ave. try crossing the road as one adult with 2 small kids, it's difficult and downright dangerous. It's madness to have that in a recreational park.

There are bike parking racks in 4 spots in the park where you can park 10 bikes each, so do me a favour and don't try to tell me that pedestrians and cyclists are catered for more than cars in the Phoenix Park.

Then, of course you have the likes of this to contend with all the time;
Note that the car cannot legally be clamped, towed or fined. You can dump it wherever you want with no repercussions.

The Park should be for everybody, not just for motorists.



*Stoneybatter and NCR residents groups from what I am aware of.

I’m glad you posted that photograph and I’d ask the question when was it taken. I’d be quite sure it was since the beginning of March. It’s typical of the ridiculous, irresponsible parking in the Park but particularly of recent.

I’d be very interested to hear the views of the rangers and the Park management And see if it rallied with what you say.

And pedestrians and cyclists always take precedence over cars in public parks.

tomasrojo

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

And pedestrians and cyclists always take precedence over cars in public parks.

Didn't quite catch that. How many pedestrian crossings?

Weepsie

I actually had some numpty drive up that road in the wrong direction the other week. Not sure where or how they go in, in the first place other than assume the ignored the road closed signs on the chesterfield roundabout, and then doubled down on their idiocy to go back up it which was all sorts of stupid.

Peregrine

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

And pedestrians and cyclists always take precedence over cars in public parks.

The more you say this, the more I think you haven't been to the Phoenix Park.