Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

Truthvader

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

I’m glad you posted that photograph and I’d ask the question when was it taken. I’d be quite sure it was since the beginning of March. It’s typical of the ridiculous, irresponsible parking in the Park but particularly of recent.

I’d be very interested to hear the views of the rangers and the Park management And see if it rallied with what you say.

And pedestrians and cyclists always take precedence over cars in public parks.

Just cycle around it

buffalo

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

And pedestrians and cyclists always take precedence over cars in public parks.

This is my favourite photo for summing up the state of infrastructure in the Park. It's slightly out of date, but the general principles remain I think.

* if you're cycling on the cycle track along the main route, you have to stop for crossing car traffic from an access road
* if you're cycling on the main road, and want to join the cycle track, despite the fact that there is no yield on your path, you will be sometimes be blocked by car drivers who don't have to yield to you and are stuck waiting to join the main route
* at no point do cars on the access road have to slow for or yield to foot traffic or cycle traffic (unless you're a vehicular cyclist ignoring the cycle track and probably getting abuse for it)
* pedestrians exiting their parked cars must cross the cycle track, a fence and muddy grass to reach a footpath
* pedestrians exiting their parked cars with buggies must walk along the cycle track to reach a footpath
* the parked cars are actually in Garda parking (indicated by the yellow box)
* the coaches are parked in the mandatory cycle track
* there's no enforcement of the above offences
* there are no pedestrian crossings or refuges in sight
* there are no pedestrian crossings or refuges directly opposite one of Ireland's top family destinations, Dublin Zoo

But if you want to show us examples of how pedestrians and cyclists take precedence, I'd love to see them.



https://goo.gl/maps/rW2jP4HvvaxD2uEXA

buffalo

Truthvader wrote: »

Just cycle around it

I think that's the advice to motorists about the Park - just go around it.

Birdie Num Num

tomasrojo wrote: »

Didn't quite catch that. How many pedestrian crossings?

You only have to look at an aerial view on google maps to see them. Yes some come with a yield Or even a stop sign to cyclists and walkers for their safety. But there are plenty of pedestrian crossings on the park. It is a public park remember and not the open road so traffic lights, zebra crossings don’t feature and rightly so.

Birdie Num Num

Peregrine wrote: »

The more you say this, the more I think you haven't been to the Phoenix Park.

And you’d be very wide of the mark.

Birdie Num Num

buffalo wrote: »

This is my favourite photo for summing up the state of infrastructure in the Park. It's slightly out of date, but the general principles remain I think.

* if you're cycling on the cycle track along the main route, you have to stop for crossing car traffic from an access road
* if you're cycling on the main road, and want to join the cycle track, despite the fact that there is no yield on your path, you will be sometimes be blocked by car drivers who don't have to yield to you and are stuck waiting to join the main route
* at no point do cars on the access road have to slow for or yield to foot traffic or cycle traffic (unless you're a vehicular cyclist ignoring the cycle track and probably getting abuse for it)
* pedestrians exiting their parked cars must cross the cycle track, a fence and muddy grass to reach a footpath
* pedestrians exiting their parked cars with buggies must walk along the cycle track to reach a footpath
* the parked cars are actually in Garda parking (indicated by the yellow box)
* the coaches are parked in the mandatory cycle track
* there's no enforcement of the above offences
* there are no pedestrian crossings or refuges in sight
* there are no pedestrian crossings or refuges directly opposite one of Ireland's top family destinations, Dublin Zoo

But if you want to show us examples of how pedestrians and cyclists take precedence, I'd love to see them.



https://goo.gl/maps/rW2jP4HvvaxD2uEXA

If you are a driver you should know that pedestrians and cyclists always take precedence.

KevRossi

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

You only have to look at an aerial view on google maps to see them. Yes some come with a yield Or even a stop sign to cyclists and walkers for their safety. But there are plenty of pedestrian crossings on the park. It is a public park remember and not the open road so traffic lights, zebra crossings don’t feature and rightly so.

There are no crossings where pedestrians have a right of way. None that are deemed to be a pedestrian crossing as determined by the Road Traffic Act.

The highlighted bit, is frankly a bit bizarre. As a public park, non-motorists should be prioritised, in the Phoenix Park they are not, they are treated a 2nd class.

magicbastarder

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

If you are a driver you should know that pedestrians and cyclists always take precedence.

*spits out beer, calls ambulance due to onset of shock*

KevRossi

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

If you are a driver you should know that pedestrians and cyclists always take precedence.

Whatever about being to the Phoenix Park, I'm beginning to doubt that you've ever been to Ireland, let alone Dublin.

Birdie Num Num

magicbastarder wrote: »

*spits out beer, calls ambulance due to onset of shock*

Hopefully not while driving. ...Bad driver behaviour doesn’t mean that cars have priority over other Park users.

Birdie Num Num

KevRossi wrote: »

There are no crossings where pedestrians have a right of way. None that are deemed to be a pedestrian crossing as determined by the Road Traffic Act.

The highlighted bit, is frankly a bit bizarre. As a public park, non-motorists should be prioritised, in the Phoenix Park they are not, they are treated a 2nd class.

Yes there are. Plenty in fact. Once you drive in Chapelizod gate you have a stop sign for pedestrians and traffic. Cars drive through it all the time without stopping. It doesn’t make it right or mean they have priority over pedestrians. It’s just bad driving.

tomasrojo

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

You only have to look at an aerial view on google maps to see them. Yes some come with a yield Or even a stop sign to cyclists and walkers for their safety. But there are plenty of pedestrian crossings on the park. It is a public park remember and not the open road so traffic lights, zebra crossings don’t feature and rightly so.

You're very evasive. Once again: how many pedestrian crossings are on Chesterfied Avenue, the main road in the park? You can count them from your aerial view, if you like.

Remember it's a heavily trafficked main road, so you *do* need zebra crossings, or traffic lights. Sprinting across through gaps in arterial traffic doesn't count as pedestrian crossings.

In fact, now I think about it, a zebra crossing wouldn't ever be used for a road with high traffic flow and high pedestrian flow. It would have to be traffic light, or maybe an underpass.

bilbot79

Stark wrote: »

Some good ones (proper sheffield stand type) at the visitor centre.

They installed some recently outside Garda HQ though I think they're the ****ty ones that only allow you to lock your wheel to the rack so you have the pleasure of coming home to a wheel and no frame or a buckled wheel.

Surely those would be safe from robbers?

Birdie Num Num

tomasrojo wrote: »

You're very evasive. Once again: how many pedestrian crossings are on Chesterfied Avenue, the main road in the park? You can count them from your aerial view, if you like.

Remember it's a heavily trafficked main road, so you *do* need zebra crossings, or traffic lights. Sprinting across through gaps in arterial traffic doesn't count as pedestrian crossings.

In fact, now I think about it, a zebra crossing wouldn't ever be used for a road with high traffic flow and high pedestrian flow. It would have to be traffic light, or maybe an underpass.

Evading what? I never said there were any pedestrian crossings on Chesterfield avenue nor was I asked the question so off with you and your ‘once again’ nonense. ...And are you seriously looking for the introduction of infrastructure for vehicular traffic within the Phoenix Park?

tomasrojo

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Evading what? I never said there were any pedestrian crossings on Chesterfield avenue nor was I asked the question so off with you and your ‘once again’ nonense. ...

I asked you. More than once, in response to your "pedestrians and cyclists take precedence". How are pedestrians getting precedence when they can't even cross the main thoroughfare. Pedestrians get more precedence on the N4.

tomasrojo wrote: »

How many pedestrian crossings are on Chesterfield Avenue? Roughly will do.

buffalo

tomasrojo wrote: »

I asked you. More than once, in response to your "pedestrians and cyclists take precedence". How are pedestrians getting precedence when they can't even cross the main thoroughfare.

Obviously, they're getting precedence with a stop sign:

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

some come with a yield Or even a stop sign to cyclists and walkers for their safety. But there are plenty of pedestrian crossings on the park.

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

If you are a driver you should know that pedestrians and cyclists always take precedence.

I will add that to my driving knowledge - a stop sign means I have precedence.

Hurrache

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

You only have to look at an aerial view on google maps to see them.

Ok then, you've clarified to say there's none on Chesterfield Avenue, so looking at the aerial view, where's all the pedestrian crossings in the park that exist?

plodder

I do think the greens have been out-manouvered temporarily on this. The minister in charge of the OPW can tell them what to do within the constraints of government policy and the law obviously, but sooner or later the matter will be dealt with at government level and that policy can be changed, and I'd be surprised if it doesn't. There are still legitimate competing concerns though, eg access to Dublin Zoo. I was talking to someone in Belfast the other day, and how they enjoy Dublin Zoo so much. A bit like Dublin Airport, it is undisputedly "the zoo" for the whole island now.

Truthvader

buffalo wrote: »

This is my favourite photo for summing up the state of infrastructure in the Park. It's slightly out of date, but the general principles remain I think.

* if you're cycling on the cycle track along the main route, you have to stop for crossing car traffic from an access road
* if you're cycling on the main road, and want to join the cycle track, despite the fact that there is no yield on your path, you will be sometimes be blocked by car drivers who don't have to yield to you and are stuck waiting to join the main route
* at no point do cars on the access road have to slow for or yield to foot traffic or cycle traffic (unless you're a vehicular cyclist ignoring the cycle track and probably getting abuse for it)
* pedestrians exiting their parked cars must cross the cycle track, a fence and muddy grass to reach a footpath
* pedestrians exiting their parked cars with buggies must walk along the cycle track to reach a footpath
* the parked cars are actually in Garda parking (indicated by the yellow box)
* the coaches are parked in the mandatory cycle track
* there's no enforcement of the above offences
* there are no pedestrian crossings or refuges in sight
* there are no pedestrian crossings or refuges directly opposite one of Ireland's top family destinations, Dublin Zoo

But if you want to show us examples of how pedestrians and cyclists take precedence, I'd love to see them.



https://goo.gl/maps/rW2jP4HvvaxD2uEXA

Got your own cycle track but still not happy

Hurrache

no ad hominem attacks, thank you very much.

magicbastarder

interesting, this is from the abbreviated bye laws in the park ( http://phoenixpark.ie/park-regulations/ )

No vehicle shall be driven or parked across turf or grass in the Park

they clearly take that seriously.

magicbastarder

and regarding the issue about whether the operational control of the park falls under the minister, this is from the phoenix park act ( http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1925/act/31/section/2/enacted/en/html#sec2 )

2.—The management and control of the Park shall continue to be vested in the Commissioners, but such management and control and all other duties and powers imposed on or vested in the Commissioners in relation to the Park by this Act or otherwise shall be performed and exercised by the Commissioners subject to and in accordance with the general directions of the Minister.

also, from section 3:

The Commissioners shall maintain the Park as a public park for the general purpose of the recreation and enjoyment of the public

the word 'enjoyment' is clearly being interpreted in an elastic sense at times.

Birdie Num Num

Hurrache wrote: »

Ok then, you've clarified to say there's none on Chesterfield Avenue, so looking at the aerial view, where's all the pedestrian crossings in the park that exist?

Are you making this stuff up as you go along? Where did I say there were none on Chesterfield Avenue or where did I point out that there are pedestrian crossings, cross points on Chesterfield Avenue? There are pedestrian and cycle crossing areas throughout the Park. Generally two white parallel lines across the road. Some are marked with give way markings (white triangle) or even stop markings. Similarly there are road junctions in the Park marked with give way and stop signs. These are for road users which is predominantly cars and cyclists.

This is a Public Park and all users of the Park must respect all other lawful users of the Park as is written within the regulations.

There are vast areas of the Park that are pedestrianised and car free, there are other parts that are not through roads, there are sections that are fluid in the sense that they are sometimes closed to vehicles and opened up to pedestrians and vice versa. These changes work well within the Park. An example is the closing off of Chesterfield Ave in part during summer weekends and opening up Odd lamp road to cars to alleviate traffic.

Again it is a Public Park, not the open road and drivers at all times need to be mindful and respectful of pedestrians and cyclists and I would argue that cyclists need to be mindful and respectful of pedestrians. I know I certainly am respectful of other Park users and as a driver I will always give right of way to a pedestrian, horse rider, wheelchair user, cyclist, runner...

So looking at the aerial view, you go and see where the crossings are and I'd guess you might even see one on Chesterfield Avenue.

tomasrojo

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Are you making this stuff up as you go along? Where did I say there were none on Chesterfield Avenue or where did I point out that there are pedestrian crossings, cross points on Chesterfield Avenue?

At this stage, I'm not sure what you're claiming about Chesterfield Avenue. I don't see how it's set up to give pedestrians precedence though. It's not set up to give them right of way at any location or point in time, as far as I can see, and yet you have to cross it to get to the east side of the park, where the café and the zoo are.

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Again it is a Public Park, not the open road and drivers at all times need to be mindful and respectful of pedestrians and cyclists

O'Donovan's argument is that the park is a major commuter route, especially Chesterfield Avenue. And he's right; the way the park has been allowed to develop, it is a commuter route. And it's treated as such by people using it as such.

"Drivers need to be mindful, blah, blah, blah" is just soft soap for politicians who aren't going to invest in infrastructure or take decisions that will anger people who want to drive where they like. It doesn't mean pedestrians have precedence on Chesterfield Avenue, and they don't.

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

So looking at the aerial view, you go and see where the crossings are and I'd guess you might even see one on Chesterfield Avenue.

Chesterfield Avenue is a few kilometres long. We haven't established yet that it does have a pedestrian crossing (and a few painted lines isn't a pedestrian crossing on a commuter route), but even if it has one, that's scandalously low pedestrian provision.

Stark

There's a couple of those "parallel white lines" (which I don't think constitute an official version of a pedestrian crossing in any version of the RotR I've seen, but I guess it's what we have to make do with) on the road from Chesterfield to Garda HQ but that's the only place in the Park I've seen them. Nothing of any sort to indicate a place for pedestrians to cross on Chesterfield avenue.

tomasrojo

Here's the quote from O'Donovan where he makes it clear that the roads in the park are to be regarded as general-purpose roads, to take excess traffic from surrounding neighbourhoods:

“I’m like everybody, I would love to see the Phoenix Park maintained for park use only, but I’m also very conscious of the fact that the western side of Dublin has grown up around the park and, whether we like it or not, for an awful lot of people it is a commuter route. It’s a commuter route from Longford, from Westmeath, from Meath, from parts of Dublin.”

https://irishcycle.com/2020/07/11/phoenix-park-gates-decision-taken-by-minister-odonovan-against-advice-from-officials/


I'm not sure what you mean by "open road" (which usually means a road away from congested urban areas), but I presume you mean a general-purpose road, not meant primarily for recreation.

magicbastarder

where is it written down that cyclists take precedence over motorists?

RobertFoster

The only thing I could see on Google maps that crosses Chesterfield Ave is this at the Castleknock end. Some hike to the zoo if you got off a 66 on Conyngham Rd.

Hurrache

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Are you making this stuff up as you go along? Where did I say there were none on Chesterfield Avenue or where did I point out that there are pedestrian crossings, cross points on Chesterfield Avenue?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

But there are plenty of pedestrian crossings on the park.

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

I never said there were any pedestrian crossings on Chesterfield avenue

Hurrache wrote: »

Ok then, you've clarified to say there's none on Chesterfield Avenue, so looking at the aerial view, where's all the pedestrian crossings in the park that exist?

tomasrojo

RobertFoster wrote: »

The only thing I could see on Google maps that crosses Chesterfield Ave is this at the Castleknock end. Some hike to the zoo if you got off a 66 on Conyngham Rd.

I don't see how that gives pedestrians right of way in any legal sense, and certainly not in any practical sense. And, as you say, you've had to walk quite a way to get to it ... and have crossed a few side roads on the way that had no pedestrian crossings either.