Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

tomasrojo

Consultation on traffic management system to start shortly:
https://twitter.com/greenpartydubC/status/1284047284129476608

Mercian Pro

The Dublin Cycling Campaign is hosting a zoom meeting tomorrow night to discuss the next steps for making the Phoenix Park a people-friendly place again.

Details and registration link at https://www.facebook.com/events/597157547836779/permalink/597157554503445/?sfnsn=mo

Seth Brundle

It appears that Minister O'Donovan made the political decision to reopen the gates and the OPW weren't in favour of it...

https://twitter.com/kenfoxe/status/1293118225736237057

bilbot79

Seth Brundle wrote: »

It appears that Minister O'Donovan made the political decision to reopen the gates and the OPW weren't in favour of it...

https://twitter.com/kenfoxe/status/1293118225736237057

Just today I seen a cyclist lying on the ground clutching his back while a Garda called him an ambulance. Some fella obviously came flying into the park too fast and whacked the poor guy. He was driving a scraped up old banger and didn't look like someone who would have looked carefully for hazards.

Where did this happen? The Cabra Gate!!! Just a few weeks ago families and kids were cycling away and loving it and now this!

Ridiculous decision to open those gates again. They can go through chesterfield or around the park. No need to open the gates. Stinks of motorist convenience.

magicbastarder

loads more on twitter yesterday about gridlock in the park, with numerous reports of close passes. strikes me that it's time to start charging for bringing a car into the park. stick cameras on the gates, and if your car is in the park for longer than 30 minutes, you're tolled.

cgcsb

I went for a cycle around the park yesterday and I have to say the cars were an utter disgrace. Masses of cars parked up on footpaths preventing wheelchair users from having an independent life and parking on the grass which had only recently recovered during the early lockdown and hoards of dumb assess taking their kids over to feed the deer something not nutritious.

Seth Brundle

magicbastarder wrote: »

loads more on twitter yesterday about gridlock in the park, with numerous reports of close passes. strikes me that it's time to start charging for bringing a car into the park. stick cameras on the gates, and if your car is in the park for longer than 30 minutes, you're tolled.

"But...but...but how can I go for a walk with my family if I can't bring my car?" :rolleyes:

Pinch Flat

Big sign up at the entrance to the park "due to the inability of a sizable minority of motorists using the park to do so civilly and responsibly and putting pedestrains and cyclists unecessarily at risk we've decided to close it to motoring traffic until further notice. Sorry for any inconvenience caused."

Truthvader

bilbot79 wrote: »

Just today I seen a cyclist lying on the ground clutching his back while a Garda called him an ambulance. Some fella obviously came flying into the park too fast and whacked the poor guy. He was driving a scraped up old banger and didn't look like someone who would have looked carefully for hazards.

Where did this happen? The Cabra Gate!!! Just a few weeks ago families and kids were cycling away and loving it and now this!

Ridiculous decision to open those gates again. They can go through chesterfield or around the park. No need to open the gates. Stinks of motorist convenience.

Maybe it happened because an idiot entitled cyclist swerved into the middle of the road in front of a car??

Anyway rock on. DCC will do anything to get car owners so by next Summer I expect you will have the Phoenix Park to yourselves and everyone else can get lost

magicbastarder

Seth Brundle wrote: »

"But...but...but how can I go for a walk with my family if I can't bring my car?" :rolleyes:

Biggest issue with my idea would be that everyone would just park in castleknock, on blackhorse avenue, etc.

Stark

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Big sign up at the entrance to the park "due to the inability of a sizable minority of motorists using the park to do so civilly and responsibly and putting pedestrains and cyclists unecessarily at risk we've decided to close it to motoring traffic until further notice. Sorry for any inconvenience caused."

For real?

I was at Knockmaroon gate around 9am this morning and it was open btw

Pinch Flat

Stark wrote: »

For real?

I was at Knockmaroon gate around 9am this morning and it was open btw

Sorry I was being facetious . Don't worry it'll never happen. We'll still continue to accommodate thousands of cars regardless of it's negative impact.

a148pro

Seth Brundle wrote: »

"But...but...but how can I go for a walk with my family if I can't bring my car?" :rolleyes:

Due to decades of moronic government there is an absence of reasonable green space near me

Due to decades of moronic government it is not safe for my 8 year old to cycle to the park even if I am happy to bring my two other kids on my bike at our own risk

Due to 7 months of moronic government I am now criminalized for going more than 5k from my house to access nature or the outdoors, both of which are vitally important for my mental health and my family's benefit. There are any number of scientific studies establishing the benefits of this.

There are no scientific studies showing how travelling more than 5k to exercise outside while practicing social distancing leads to a spread of the virus. Zero. Yet this policy is enthusiastically cheerleaded by many here.

So they haven given me these choices - I give you yours - tolerate cars in the park so people like me can access the outdoors with our families, or maybe agitate to remove the tin hat 5k ban and encourage people to broaden their horizons for outdoor exercise. St anne's, bull island, howth, malahide, newbridge house, donadee, dublin mountains, wicklow mountains, etc etc

All reachable with zero human contact. All criminal offences

Seth Brundle

a148pro wrote: »

There are no scientific studies showing how travelling more than 5k to exercise outside while practicing social distancing leads to a spread of the virus. Zero. Yet this policy is enthusiastically cheerleaded by many here.

If people are moving around less then the spread of the virus is slowed. It's not hard to understand and doesn't require scientific studies. Look at the previous lockdowns: did the transmission numbers go up or down?

a148pro wrote: »

So they haven given me these choices - I give you yours - tolerate cars in the park so people like me can access the outdoors with our families, or maybe agitate to remove the tin hat 5k ban and encourage people to broaden their horizons for outdoor exercise. St anne's, bull island, howth, malahide, newbridge house, donadee, dublin mountains, wicklow mountains, etc etc

All reachable with zero human contact. All criminal offences

If you stay within your 5km then it shouldn't matter how you travel but that doesn't excuse driving and parking like a prick (as per the previously posted tweets).
Furthermore, you want to allow crowds all enjoy parks at the same time? What did you and your family do before the lockdown because not all of you went to the parks like they're doing now.

Weepsie

Truthvader wrote: »

Maybe it happened because an idiot entitled cyclist swerved into the middle of the road in front of a car??

Anyway rock on. DCC will do anything to get car owners so by next Summer I expect you will have the Phoenix Park to yourselves and everyone else can get lost

DCC don't manage the park, and it's in DCCs interests to reduce car use.

If you live in DCCs area the need for a car to use the amenities within DCC are not particularly great to be honest .


Anyway, found the park much more enjoyable this morning. Was there same time as yesterday. A lot less traffic, less bikes and less joggers. Putting yesterday down to the virtual marathon and the good weather.

Was picking up though just as I was leaving

Weepsie

a148pro wrote: »

Due to decades of moronic government there is an absence of reasonable green space near me

Due to decades of moronic government it is not safe for my 8 year old to cycle to the park even if I am happy to bring my two other kids on my bike at our own risk

Due to 7 months of moronic government I am now criminalized for going more than 5k from my house to access nature or the outdoors, both of which are vitally important for my mental health and my family's benefit. There are any number of scientific studies establishing the benefits of this.

There are no scientific studies showing how travelling more than 5k to exercise outside while practicing social distancing leads to a spread of the virus. Zero. Yet this policy is enthusiastically cheerleaded by many here.

So they haven given me these choices - I give you yours - tolerate cars in the park so people like me can access the outdoors with our families, or maybe agitate to remove the tin hat 5k ban and encourage people to broaden their horizons for outdoor exercise. St anne's, bull island, howth, malahide, newbridge house, donadee, dublin mountains, wicklow mountains, etc etc

All reachable with zero human contact. All criminal offences

It's not safe because people insist on driving.

I saw plenty of kids and families cycling to the park today and yesterday. They all seemed perfectly safe.


There was a time when people didn't think of throwing everything in the car to get somewhere a few km away, and it really wasn't that long ago.

a148pro

People aren't moving around less - they're moving around in tighter areas. Have you been out on the streets? It's much busier than normal. Restricting people to 5k does not in any way prevent the spread of the virus. Restricting people from coming into close contact with others does. I fully support that. There's little to no evidence for outside spread.

restricting people to 5k, assuming the same behaviour will have zero affect on the number of people you infect, you'll just spread it to the same number of people in your area, and if they're all packed in, to more people.

I don't agree with bad parking, of course I don't. But making the park utterly car free, laudable as that is, deprives many families of access.

Yes, most weekends I visit those kind of parks with my family, or go further afield down the country.

Weepsie

It's not just about the spread of the virus. You know this.

Managing behaviour is a logical step for multiple reasons. Limiting movement massively brings down the risk of other types of accidents and common illness/infections.

I and someone I know have had the misfortune of having to visit a&e during first lockdown. Night and day to what you'd normally see and out within 2 hours. This is because there were feck all sporting injuries, feck all kids coming in needing stitches, no ambulances bringing in car crash victims, far, far fewer drunks and related injuries.

Hospitals were getting patients who need hospital care back to their homes in the last fortnight, because they think they're about to come under pressure again.

If you can keep it localised all the better, anyway. You're not alone in being asked to moderate travel and behaviour, but it's only the people who disagree with it seem to take it as some sort of personal sleight , moan about scientific evidence and don't look at the plethora of related reasons for limiting movement.

5 k radius s a big area , so claiming people are packed in by the limit is hyperbolic nonsense.

It's off topic now so I'll leave it at that

a148pro

Weepsie wrote: »

It's not just about the spread of the virus. You know this.

Managing behaviour is a logical step for multiple reasons. Limiting movement massively brings down the risk of other types of accidents and common illness/infections.

I haven't heard one actual public health official articulate this, the only people who come up with it are on forums trying to find justifications for the rule. It would be really helpful if a clear rationale for the rule was actually communicated. If they actually wanted to limit admissions to A and E they should ban alcohol, or DIY. They haven't, because like greyhound racing its politically advantageous to them not to.

Weepsie wrote: »

You're not alone in being asked to moderate travel and behaviour, but it's only the people who disagree with it seem to take it as some sort of personal sleight , moan about scientific evidence and don't look at the plethora of related reasons for limiting movement.

Ah, its only the people who disagree with it who have the temerity to ask what the rationale for criminalising people for doing things that have no effect on the spread of the virus is, or what the scientific evidence underlying such astonishing restrictions, unheard of outside of a war? What a surprise that is. What exactly is your point, that only people who disagree with the rule are asking for its justification?

I'm not taking this personally. I'm disgusted that our government is criminalising people for no valid reason. They're not targeting me, they're just governing really badly, in consequence of which I will commit criminal offences for doing things that have zero effect on the virus. This on top of a series of decisions so bad by the same people they arguably should be criminalised themselves. Either the law is reasonable and valid or it isn't, its got nothing to do with me personally. You don't criminalise people for BS reasons.

Weepsie wrote: »

5 k radius s a big area , so claiming people are packed in by the limit is hyperbolic nonsense.

Hyperbolic nonsense? I'm looking out my window and just back from a cycle around town. There are more people on the streets than there would be ordinarily at this time. The cafes have long queues outside them.

I mean this is the easiest way to answer your argument:-

If you support a 5k limit on movements its because you believe people transmit the virus outside. Otherwise there should be no 5k limit on travelling for exercise, or visiting outside areas.

Leaving aside the fact that the evidence does not support significant outside transmission, by confining a large area with a high population density (i.e., where I live) you increase the risk of outside transmission.

So what you are defending, on your own rationale, leads to an increased risk of people transmitting the virus. As, for example, does cycling long distances within 5k of your house pursuing this idiotic rationale.

Weepsie wrote: »

It's off topic now so I'll leave it at that

Agreed, and I'm sorry for bringing it up again, and its probably not doing me any good though I wish more people would think about it. But its only relevant here because I can't in effect go to the Park due to the increased numbers caused by the 5k limit. Ordinarily I would avoid it on any sunny day because its too busy and head further afield, which is fine because I love seeing new places. Now I'll have to avoid it each weekend because its going to be like this every weekend that it isn't raining. And for what, I ask again!

And by the way, I would LOVE to be able to cycle to the park with my family, or get the LUAS, but neither are viable due to road safety and public health guidance. We cycled during lockdown as there was almost nothing on the roads, though my son is pretty tired by the time he gets there and doesn't have as much energy to explore.

The Park's access is a perennial problem. It will now be magnified (again) by COVID, but it'll always be there to an extent. I look forward to it being solved.

Seth Brundle

a148pro wrote: »

I haven't heard one actual public health official articulate this, the only people who come up with it are on forums trying to find justifications for the rule. It would be really helpful if a clear rationale for the rule was actually communicated. If they actually wanted to limit admissions to A and E they should ban alcohol, or DIY. They haven't, because like greyhound racing its politically advantageous to them not to.

Some people hear what they want to hear!
It was frequently repeated to avoid putting pressure on medical services. I've also heard it said recently so the message is still being put out there.
By reducing interactions between people, pressure on essential services is reduced.
The WHO approve of their use in reducing the spread
https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/herd-immunity-lockdowns-and-covid-19

Seth Brundle

a148pro wrote: »

I'm not taking this personally. I'm disgusted that our government is criminalising people for no valid reason.

No valid reason? Assisting in the spread of s pandemic which is adding to thenongoing cost of getting back to normal? Potentially spreading the disease to someone which could result in death?
I have zero sympathy for someone who ends up getting charged. However, has anyone been criminalised for no valid reason as you say?

a148pro

Indeed, some people do hear what they want to hear. Like anyone reading that link and purporting that it justifies a 5k restriction!

Yes for no valid reason - because anyone visiting the mountains or a forest or another recreational area within their family bubble poses zero risk to public health.

a148pro

Also contributing to the cost of getting back to normal - which normal is this then? The normal where businesses and jobs are gone and we relax restrictions only to put them back up again? The cost is actually loaded onto the lockdown.

Jesus do you honestly believe me going for a cycle in the mountains or taking my kids for a walk in massey's is going to slow our return to normal? While building sites are open? Have you bought that crap? What is going to happen in January? Christ it's pointless.

a148pro

Listen, it's off topic and we're going around in mutually frustrating circles, a bit like the cyclists these days; )

Let's just leave it

Seth Brundle

a148pro wrote: »

Indeed, some people do hear what they want to hear. Like anyone reading that link and purporting that it justifies a 5k restriction!

As you well know thwre are many forms if lockdown.
Italy had some that involved the military imposing the restrictions. At the other end of the scale you have a government asking people to remain within 2km or 5km from home. It's not a big ask!

a148pro wrote: »

Yes for no valid reason - because anyone visiting the mountains or a forest or another recreational area within their family bubble poses zero risk to public health.

Seemingly Stocking Lane, the road up along the Hellfire club has been a massive car park recently.
Near me, I note loads of cars parked at access points to the Royal Canal.
The problem is not you bringing your family out. The problem is having loads of people with the same idea at the same time.

magicbastarder

it seems that people seem more interested in getting outside now that we're in lockdown. we were in the botanic gardens this morning and i don't think i've ever seen the place as busy.

Mercian Pro

Weepsie wrote: »

Anyway, found the park much more enjoyable this morning. Was there same time as yesterday. A lot less traffic, less bikes and less joggers. Putting yesterday down to the virtual marathon and the good weather.

Was picking up though just as I was leaving

Avoided the Park yesterday but headed up this morning at about 9.30 for six laps of the perimeter. As usual, I did a rough count of bikes and cars on the first lap and it worked out at about twice as many bikes as cars (86vs45). With the six perimeter gates closed pre-July, there were normally ten times as many bikes as cars.


As posted elsewhere, I emailed patrick.odonovan@oir.ie, the Minister for OPW, looking to have the gates closed again and other Covid measures reintroduced. No reply after five days so I have asked my local Green TD who lives in Stoneybatter to take up the case. If anyone else feels strongly about it, they might consider doing likewise.

Stark

I'm wondering what the **** the Greens are at since they've been in government. It seems to be like 2008-2011 again with carbon taxes, a few quid towards the B2W scheme and sod all else. DLRCC and to a lesser extent Dublin city council have been doing some amazing stuff, though I wonder is it even the Green councillors who are driving that. I remember Labour councillors being quite decent in the past.

Seth Brundle

Stark wrote: »

I'm wondering what the **** the Greens are at since they've been in government. It seems to be like 2008-2011 again with carbon taxes, a few quid towards the B2W scheme and sod all else. DLRCC and to a lesser extent Dublin city council have been doing some amazing stuff, though I wonder is it even the Green councillors who are driving that. I remember Labour councillors being quite decent in the past.

What kind of changes are you expecting after a few months?

magicbastarder

They're bringing in legislation for e-scooters next year.