Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

mvt

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Avoided the Park yesterday but headed up this morning at about 9.30 for six laps of the perimeter. As usual, I did a rough count of bikes and cars on the first lap and it worked out at about twice as many bikes as cars (86vs45). With the six perimeter gates closed pre-July, there were normally ten times as many bikes as cars.


As posted elsewhere, I emailed patrick.odonovan@oir.ie, the Minister for OPW, looking to have the gates closed again and other Covid measures reintroduced. No reply after five days so I have asked my local Green TD who lives in Stoneybatter to take up the case. If anyone else feels strongly about it, they might consider doing likewise.

I don't know how you count anything at your normal speed
Good luck with the positive lobbying.

a148pro

magicbastarder wrote: »

it seems that people seem more interested in getting outside now that we're in lockdown. we were in the botanic gardens this morning and i don't think i've ever seen the place as busy.

I think its a bit of both - as soon as we're told we can't have something we all want it, like looking for drink on good friday. Then other people are stressed and looking for a bit of outdoor time and so many other activities and destinations are gone.

My missus says this is affecting me because I view the outdoors as my release. When work or family life gets to me I jump on the bike or pull on a pair of runners and hit the hills, or get the kids up there. Its my safety valve. I always look forward to holidays for that break and even Ireland has so much to offer. Now like everyone else I'm more stressed, more confined to the house and kids and my valve is being taken away.

Also agree re the Greens, this pandemic has done more for Dublin Cycling than anything else, but it seems that's being driven by the Council? Greens also having their own internal problems with their own radical side, maybe becoming too mainstream for some. I think they had a bit of shape on the budget though.

Pinch Flat

Was heading down by the Aras earlier. On the drops and going at pace - 40 kph plus. €150 worth of seesense lights blaring back and front. Still didn't stop some dope overtaking me andpulling into the cycle lane, stopping abruptly in front of me. He swerved in without warning i genuinely thought he was deliberately trying to kill me or he had collapsed at the wheel. Closest I've come to being milled in a while.

magicbastarder

as seen on the 5km radius cyle routes thread:

Almost all Phoenix Park gates to close to vehicular traffic on weekends for duration of Level 5
https://www.thejournal.ie/phoenix-park-gates-closed-level-5-5249619-Oct2020/

it's 'Following a request from An Garda Síochána' - which is a fairly damning state of affairs. i suspect the OPW staff were delighted that gave them the clout to do it.

Stark

I'd say the main motivation on the Gardaí's part was facilitating the 5km checkpoints. With the side gates open, the checkpoints at Castleknock and Parkgate street were almost useless as people could get in and out of the side gates without passing any checkpoints.

Mercian Pro

magicbastarder wrote: »

as seen on the 5km radius cyle routes thread:

Almost all Phoenix Park gates to close to vehicular traffic on weekends for duration of Level 5
https://www.thejournal.ie/phoenix-park-gates-closed-level-5-5249619-Oct2020/

it's 'Following a request from An Garda Síochána' - which is a fairly damning state of affairs. i suspect the OPW staff were delighted that gave them the clout to do it.

Just got notification from Neasa Hourican about this. I got the impression I wasn't the only one lobbying the Minister and local TDs on the issue. As I stay well clear of the Park at weekends due to the crowds, I won't get much benefit from this on my mid-week circuits. Hopefully at weekends they will also prevent the perimeter roads being used as a linear car park.

bazermc

Great news.

Thelonious Monk

The concern for old people and disabled people will go through the roof now with online commentators.
I really don't get it. On Monday just gone, nice autumn day, I fancied a walk to the end of the bull wall. So instead of being a dumb f*ck and trying to drive over the wooden bridge and into the traffic chaos, I simply parked in Conquer Hill in Clontarf, and walked the remaining distance. This is all you need to do if you want to drive somewhere, park somewhere else and walk a bit. It saves so much hassle and stress with traffic and parking.

Thelonious Monk

Closed due to safety concerns? Have cars started to drive on the paths now? There is ample room for pedestrians, cyclists and cars in the park, this is a ridiculous decision. People who don’t live within walking distance to the park deserve to be able to drive there and go for a walk.

Classic Journal comment. I'm sure some of you have seen the 1000s of cars dumped all over the footpaths and cycle lanes in the park over the last few months. Unless helicopters are dropping them there, they're driving on the paths now, yes.

a148pro

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

This is all you need to do if you want to drive somewhere, park somewhere else and walk a bit. It saves so much hassle and stress with traffic and parking.

Grand, but whether you like it or not there is **** all parking around the park. And what little public transport there is is discouraged under current public health guidance.

There was 5 miles of parking along an ugly road border but they decided to ruin one of the nicer cycle lanes in Dublin by putting it on the road instead.

Anyway this has all been rehearsed above. There are multiple users with multiple transport needs in the park and unfortunately at present they won't be reconciled.

Weepsie

4-5 km (on 2 sides so say 9 in total) of road public road should never ever, ever, ever have been given up for the parking of private vehicles.

Also the cycle lane was crap and lead to unsafe meetings of pedestrians and cyclists and zero clarity on right of way anywhere

a148pro

Well realistically would you prefer to have them parking on the grass as they are now?

My argument is that the centre road is a write off aesthetically. Once there's a road there you may as well allow people park on it. I've been on that road lots when it's closed and it just isn't nice beyond the novelty of no traffic. The actual park either side of it is of course nice. But once there's an ugly road there you may as well use it for parking.

I really liked that cycle lane. It was totally off set and felt like you were cycling for the pleasure rather than to get somewhere. Yes there was a problem with pedestrians but that could have been managed. I think the optimum for all cycling infrastructure is to have it away from roads altogether.

Present "solution" has you cycling beside cars and loses 5 miles of parking. Lose lose imo.

plodder

a148pro wrote: »

Well realistically would you prefer to have them parking on the grass as they are now?

My argument is that the centre road is a write off aesthetically. Once there's a road there you may as well allow people park on it. I've been on that road lots when it's closed and it just isn't nice beyond the novelty of no traffic. The actual park either side of it is of course nice. But once there's an ugly road there you may as well use it for parking.

I really liked that cycle lane. It was totally off set and felt like you were cycling for the pleasure rather than to get somewhere. Yes there was a problem with pedestrians but that could have been managed. I think the optimum for all cycling infrastructure is to have it away from roads altogether.

Present "solution" has you cycling beside cars and loses 5 miles of parking. Lose lose imo.

While I'd agree with you that parking is a problem that has to be solved, I wouldn't go along with that aesthetic argument. It's really the presence of cars that makes Chesterfield ave. ugly. Compare this with this view of the park in Dresden I mentioned before. With 99% of the cars gone and the traffic markings removed, it could be beautiful. Granted the park in Dresden is a lot smaller; the straight main route is only 2km long as opposed to 4km in our park. But, when I was there early one morning it was like a commuter super-highway for cyclists, but still pleasant and safe for pedestrians.

a148pro

Listen, I'm totally with you. But I bet you people can get to the park in Dresden easily with public transport. Much less viable for people in Dublin due to our crap transport options, and certainly at the moment when we're been told to stay off public transport.

I would absolutely love to have zero cars in the park every day of the year. But that would really mean shutting off the park to a big portion of its regular users - families who don't live close enough to it to arrive safely otherwise than in a car.

ted1

a148pro wrote: »

Listen, I'm totally with you. But I bet you people can get to the park in Dresden easily with public transport. Much less viable for people in Dublin due to our crap transport options, and certainly at the moment when we're been told to stay off public transport.

I would absolutely love to have zero cars in the park every day of the year. But that would really mean shutting off the park to a big portion of its regular users - families who don't live close enough to it to arrive safely otherwise than in a car.

The LUAS drops off beside it. It’s very accessible

a148pro

If you live on that luas line and could use it it's good. But even at that it's 2.5 miles to the far side of the park. Not sure how many kids would make it much past the magazine fort on foot. You can't take bikes on the luas. I think a luas going through it with several stops or very frequent shuttle bus around it maybe? Hard to know how to get it right without taking from the atmosphere.

Tenzor07

a148pro wrote: »

Listen, I'm totally with you. But I bet you people can get to the park in Dresden easily with public transport. Much less viable for people in Dublin due to our crap transport options.

In all fairness Dublin has a fairly extensive Bus network with clean modern busses that cover pretty much every part of the city...As well as a modern tram system and a railway system too...

Dublin isn't Dresden and wasn't completely destroyed during the war and rebuilt with many tram and train lines being constructed.

The issues Dublin has is the motorist was/is prioritized over public transport and cycling, car dependency is high in Dublin for the public, bicycle theft is rife with no serious deterrents or fear of being caught for thieves, poor planning leading to sprawling housing estates dotted all over the city...

I would argue that for the duration of the Level 5 restrictions that all but the main gates should remain closed, if you need a car to get to the park then you most likely live over 5km from the park so shouldn't be there anyways..

Also I wish the OPW would bring out a road sweeper to clear the mush of leaves from the Ashtown side of the park, they're lethal! If you have to brake or swerve to avoid a car/pedestrian/jogger/horse rider/cyclist coming the other way then you're in trouble! :mad:

Pinch Flat

Great to see it closed to traffic. I've been doing laps on my bike in the parkover the past while.

Have had three motorists pull in at chesterfield avenue into the cycle lane - one almost hitting me. Some crazy overtaking where the cycle lane ends at the roundabouts. Not one single motorist has given me right of way at the entrance leading from chapelizod when I'm coming down the hill and following the road right - one yesterday almost collided with me. The road from the chapelizod gate to the ordnance survey has turned into a real rat run - overtaking into oncoming cyclists and cars common place. Parking also a disgrace - just dump the car where ever you fab0cy, including on the bike lane opposite the wellington monument. the avenue at the ordnance survey - bollards and signs ignored.

KevRossi

This space can hold the cars that are parked on Chesterfield Ave. Add in a few more and you'll have plenty of space to get cars off the main road and ban them on the side roads. After that, rigouros enforcement via clamping and it would solve a lot of issues.

Ironically the 'old' cycle path would then be freed up. Move pedestrians back onto the 'old' footpath, widening it it necessary. Sympathetic signage and coloured cycle paths would help to separate people as would gaps in the railings to allow people to change paths. Chesterfield needs zebra crossings and speed limits need to be enforced.

Run a Luas along Chesterfield - but that would take years to build, in the meantime try a dedicated bus route at the weekend serving Connolly/Busaras - O'Connell Bridge - Parliament St - Wood Quay - Heuston, all the way up to Castleknock and the Phoenix Park Station. Or just Heuston up to Phoenix Park Station.

Something like this.

magicbastarder

one of the main issues with the park is that you have to drive *into* the park to get to the main car parks (visitor centre and papal cross), both of which involve driving on the main avenue. to get to either car park basically involves driving halfway into the park, which if you assume there are going to be car parks, is precisely the least efficient way of getting cars in and out.

aso as per above - if they're going to put car parks in, put them beside the gates (either inside or outside the walls) and remove any car parks near the centre, except for parking for permit holders.

Stark

Definitely a lot more pleasant this morning. Granted the Park in general was a lot quieter than last weekend due to ****ty weather and not having the virtual marathon series this weekend. Was able to run around the perimeter roads and leave the footpaths exclusively to walkers. Though when you consider that I still needed the extra social distancing space on a quiet weekend due to the narrow footpaths, it was freaking insane how many people they squashed into such a small space last weekend just so a small minority of the Park users could have free run of the bulk of the space.

Mercian Pro

magicbastarder wrote: »

one of the main issues with the park is that you have to drive *into* the park to get to the main car parks (visitor centre and papal cross), both of which involve driving on the main avenue. to get to either car park basically involves driving halfway into the park, which if you assume there are going to be car parks, is precisely the least efficient way of getting cars in and out.

aso as per above - if they're going to put car parks in, put them beside the gates (either inside or outside the walls) and remove any car parks near the ceintre, except for parking for permit holders.

Couldn't agree more and that's what I will be suggesting whenever they get around to having their Traffic Management consultation. Rising bollards could be used, as they are in many European cities and parks, to limit further access to those who work or have business within the Park.


Still not sure what the best solution for Chesterfield Avenue might be. Every proposal to close it off to through traffic over the past half century has fallen foul of the politicians to the west and north west of the Park. Putting it underground would be great but probably too expensive while a cutting would effectively split the Park in two. A 30kph speed limit with average speed cameras and an automated fine system might dramatically reduce the attractiveness of the Avenue as a major commuter route and could be a stepping stone to eventually closing it.

bilbot79

They should extend the luas line into the park with 2 or 3 stops along Chesterfield Avenue. The journey from Houston through the park should then be free

Peregrine

bilbot79 wrote: »

They should extend the luas line into the park with 2 or 3 stops along Chesterfield Avenue. The journey from Houston through the park should then be free

Where would the Luas go when it gets to Heuston?

Seth Brundle

bilbot79 wrote: »

They should extend the luas line into the park with 2 or 3 stops along Chesterfield Avenue. The journey from Houston through the park should then be free

...and this would be paid for how?

07Lapierre

Seth Brundle wrote: »

...and this would be paid for how?

Road tax naturally

Peregrine

Seth Brundle wrote: »

...and this would be paid for how?

Like, we're talking €150m to build it. Then there's the operating costs.

Buses may not be fashionable but they work.

bazermc

07Lapierre wrote: »

Road tax naturally

I fought that paid for the footpads?

KevRossi

Seth Brundle wrote: »

...and this would be paid for how?

Taxes, with the resulting payback in less hours lost through sitting in traffic. Some payback initially through people working on the construction project.

Peregrine wrote: »

Like, we're talking €150m to build it. Then there's the operating costs.

Buses may not be fashionable but they work.

It would cost a lot less than that. Straight run, plenty of space around the lines to work on, no traffic beside them and can work 24/7 for most of it. (I'm assuming they shut the Park to traffic for this, but knowing O'Donovan he'll do the opposite).

Line runs through the Park and on to either Phoenix Park Station (especially helpful for commuters) or else on to Castleknock village, Blanch village and Blanch Shopping Centre, - or indeed both.

Public transport is also about linking up existing routes, not just thinking about going from A to B.

In the meantime dedicated bus routes along that line would be start.

Cabaal

a148pro wrote: »

Indeed, some people do hear what they want to hear. Like anyone reading that link and purporting that it justifies a 5k restriction!

Yes for no valid reason - because anyone visiting the mountains or a forest or another recreational area within their family bubble poses zero risk to public health.

Zero you say?

Tell that to the mountain rescue volunteers throughout Ireland who have had to rescue countless people off mountains or forests during restrictions and have had to wear PPE while doing so.


It's most certainly not zero.