Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

buffalo

KevRossi wrote: »

Phoenix Park Station

What/where's this?

DoraDelite

a148pro wrote: »

If you live on that luas line and could use it it's good. But even at that it's 2.5 miles to the far side of the park. Not sure how many kids would make it much past the magazine fort on foot. You can't take bikes on the luas. I think a luas going through it with several stops or very frequent shuttle bus around it maybe? Hard to know how to get it right without taking from the atmosphere.

I'm always surprised how people think kids have an inability to walk any distances. A child with an average level of fitness would have no problem knocking out a 5km walk. I have two nephews (5 and 7 years old) who will do a 10km hill walk without issue.

We are doing our children a serious disservice driving them everywhere and assuming they can't do a few kms of a walk (parental projection?). Their health and fitness is being eroded with our car culture.

magicbastarder

buffalo wrote: »

What/where's this?

it's the old name for the navan road parkway station.

a148pro

DoraDelite wrote: »

I'm always surprised how people think kids have an inability to walk any distances. A child with an average level of fitness would have no problem knocking out a 5km walk. I have two nephews (5 and 7 years old) who will do a 10km hill walk without issue.

We are doing our children a serious disservice driving them everywhere and assuming they can't do a few kms of a walk (parental projection?). Their health and fitness is being eroded with our car culture.

Well my problem is they don't want to go for a walk only, they want to run around and explore. I'd definitely get them to the magazine fort from the Luas so they could explore the nice forest around there. But the really cool areas around say the Ordnance Survey building wouldn't be a viable walk from Heuston, particularly after a week in school or football.

Plus I've a four and three year old as well.

Plus you're not allowed use public transport at the moment.

a148pro

Cabaal wrote: »

Zero you say?

Tell that to the mountain rescue volunteers throughout Ireland who have had to rescue countless people off mountains or forests during restrictions and have had to wear PPE while doing so.


It's most certainly not zero.

I presume you're not claiming limiting 5 million people to within 5k is with a view to protecting mountain rescue volunteers?

Even leaving aside the fact that that risk existed before the 5k limit (while our public health authorities were making, apparently, zero effort to determine where and how the virus was being transmitted) that risk is absolutely tiny in public health terms. How do you think that risk might relate to leaving off licences open, allowing under 18s sport to continue, people doing DIY?

How many people have to be rescued from forest parks as opposed to mountains, relative to public parks generally? Should we close all public parks?

Its a measure of badly articulated and reasoned the 5k limit is that we have people making up rationales for it. I still have not heard any public health official say that it is with a view to protecting the emergency services from having to deal with people getting injured.

I think its with a view to simply trying to get people to stay at home, because the more people who leave their home the more likely the virus is to spread. I think that 8 months into a pandemic which I think is highly likely to last at least another year, that's too blunt and patronising and in reality they should limit the activity, i.e., close contact with others, that actually causes the virus to spread.

Stark

Reminds me of people justifying the 2km limit for cyclists with "you might fall off your bike somewhere remote and that one extra person in ICU will be the straw that takes down the entire ICU system" (Actual post from a while back).

magicbastarder

using the word 'actual' there is a *little* disingenuous when you're clearly parodying the point being made.

a148pro

Look, I'm at peace with it now anyway - mainly because as someone pointed out to me above, nobody has actually been criminalised for breaking the 5k. This is the reality. They are not going to prosecute people for going for a walk in the mountains or for a cycle. And the restrictions work because people don't like breaking rules, even silly rules, and this reduces the overall levels. I'm still annoyed at it and don't think its viable going forward, I think we need to "live with the virus" but hopefully the yo yo will go down in a few weeks, we can all get our fix of actual living in and then back to the yo yo interspersed with a healthy disregard for ridiculous restrictions.

a148pro

I know you'll all be glad to know I'm at peace

eeeee

Mod Note: this thread is for discussing bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic.
It is NOT a thread on the validity of the 5k restrictions or not. There are other fora and many threads that can be discussed.
Any further OT posts will be deleted.

alentejo

Just to note:

During the spring lock down, when the restrictions allowed for movement within 5K, in my case, the 5k boundary covered half the area of Phoneix Park. I asked a guard on duty if I could cycle the whole way around the park, The Guard at the gate said if your residence is within 5 K to the the park gate, you can use the whole area of the park without breaking the rules.

MojoMaker

Fair play to him for (a) making that up on the spot and (b) not being a d1ck about the restrictions.

bazermc

alentejo wrote: »

Just to note:

During the spring lock down, when the restrictions allowed for movement within 5K, in my case, the 5k boundary covered half the area of Phoneix Park. I asked a guard on duty if I could cycle the whole way around the park, The Guard at the gate said if your residence is within 5 K to the the park gate, you can use the whole area of the park without breaking the rules.

Does that mean if you live in the park (Michael D) the 5km would start once you leave the park???

Stark

MojoMaker wrote: »

Fair play to him for (a) making that up on the spot and (b) not being a d1ck about the restrictions.

Don't think it was made up on the spot. A few people from my club checked with the Gardaí before the virtual Dublin marathon series last weekend and were told the same thing. So it seems to be something consistently agreed upon at Garda level anyway.

Not sure if the Strava curtain twitcher alliance follows the same interpretation though :pac:

Enduro

Stark wrote: »

Don't think it was made up on the spot. A few people from my club checked with the Gardaí before the virtual Dublin marathon series last weekend and were told the same thing. So it seems to be something consistently agreed upon at Garda level anyway.

Not sure if the Strava curtain twitcher alliance follows the same interpretation though :pac:

yeah, from the first lockdown's 5km zone and the re-opening of golf clubs, I call this "golf club rules". Because you can be sure that if any of the golfers on NPHET lived within 5km of their golf club entrance then they weren't going to restrict themselves to only the subset of the 18 holes that were fully within 5km. So apply the 5km rule to logical blocks, such the PK, or the biking centre trails.

beauf

Mercian Pro wrote: »

....
Still not sure what the best solution for Chesterfield Avenue might be. Every proposal to close it off to through traffic over the past half century has fallen foul of the politicians to the west and north west of the Park.

.....A 30kph speed limit with average speed cameras and an automated fine system might dramatically reduce the attractiveness of the Avenue as a major commuter route and could be a stepping stone to eventually closing it.

Closing it to traffic just reduces the number of people able to access to park. So less people in the park with obviously make it more pleasant for those who will still use it.

Most of the really bad days for traffic and crowds during lockdowns have been at the weekend. So commuters are only one issue.

plodder

Irish Times: Decision to shut Phoenix Park gates at weekends gets mixed reaction

Mostly unsurprising. People who live close by are happy. Those who live further away (but even as close as Finglas or Ranelagh) are not.

I'd still say decent parking facilties at the edges, and some kind of electric shuttle bus service inside would solve the access problem. Even if it were closed to general traffic some access would still be needed and I'd say a 30km/h (or less) average speed enforcement would be needed as well.

beauf

DoraDelite wrote: »

I'm always surprised how people think kids have an inability to walk any distances. A child with an average level of fitness would have no problem knocking out a 5km walk. I have two nephews (5 and 7 years old) who will do a 10km hill walk without issue.

We are doing our children a serious disservice driving them everywhere and assuming they can't do a few kms of a walk (parental projection?). Their health and fitness is being eroded with our car culture.

Kinda missing the point. Regularly popping out to the local park, should not be the same as a 10k hike. walking along busy roads and housing estates is also not the same as walking or just spending time in a park.

beauf

Maybe toll it for people who pass through it, you pay more the less time you spend in it.

But I think there's more issues than just this. You'd need orbital car parks, and a lots of different things.

magicbastarder

beauf wrote: »

Maybe toll it for people who pass through it, you pay more the less time you spend in it.

have mused on this. you'd probably need cameras on gates to make it work; no toll for people who enter and then exit in less than half an hour, but toll for people staying longer than that?
it'd allow for workers in the park and OAPs, people with disabilities, etc., to register for free access.
one issue with that would be that it'd set up an expectation of provided parking.

or another idea would be congestion based gate closures? stick up cameras to estimate numbers in park and do rolling closures of gates. though probably not workable as people might arrive at the park in their car and it'd end up with them just driving even further to get in.

beauf

OPW wouldn't be interested anyway. They really want it closed. I always got the impression they aren't really interested in any sort of compromise. I don't get the resistance to change. Its man made. It has changed over its history. Why not modernise parts of it to improve access and reduce the impact of cars.

Take the Visitor Center. Only Access is through the middle of the park. Be easy to have it from the back so people can drive as short as possible to it. They do this only for Bloom. Farmleigh, the same thing. It actually used to have parking at the rear. Now you have drive again through the park to get into it.

At this point though I don't really care what they do. Lots of other parks to use if the Phoenix park isn't accessible for whatever reason.

VonLuck

I honestly don't get the issue with closing the gates. The park is still accessible by car and the internal roads are safer due to less through traffic. Am I missing something?

beauf

Dunno is anyone saying they have an issue with the current restrictions?

DoraDelite

beauf wrote: »

Kinda missing the point. Regularly popping out to the local park, should not be the same as a 10k hike. walking along busy roads and housing estates is also not the same as walking or just spending time in a park.

I was referencing someone who said the LUAS isn't suitable for people with kids going to the park. Getting the LUAS and walking up and around the park isn't beyond the realms of children's walking abilities. Most weekend trips to the park for people travelling from outside the locality are not every day popping to the park, they are usually for a day out, same as a day out in the Dublin Mountains or similar.

Driving and legally parking the car also makes the park very accessible. It's the "I'll dump my car where I like as I'm entitled" and using kids as the excuse doesn't wash with me.

Mercian Pro

beauf wrote: »

Dunno is anyone saying they have an issue with the current restrictions?

Just back from some circuits around the perimeter roads and there were plenty of others doing likewise. There were probably slightly more cars than bikes and it certainly isn't as enjoyable as it was when the gates were closed mid-week as well as weekends. The main safety issue was approaching cars pulling out to pass cyclists and forgetting there were other cyclists heading towards them at speed.

beauf

DoraDelite wrote: »

I was referencing someone who said the LUAS isn't suitable for people with kids going to the park. Getting the LUAS and walking up and around the park isn't beyond the realms of children's walking abilities. Most weekend trips to the park for people travelling from outside the locality are not every day popping to the park, they are usually for a day out, same as a day out in the Dublin Mountains or similar.

In fairness you were trying to make it general comment about car culture and driving everywhere. The park is also a local park. Not just for big weekend trips.

DoraDelite wrote: »

Driving and legally parking the car also makes the park very accessible. It's the "I'll dump my car where I like as I'm entitled" and using kids as the excuse doesn't wash with me.

The OPW have enforced parking in the park before, for example when commuters used to park just inside the Parkgate street gate. They also do it for big events, like Bloom, and concerts. So people parking all over the place is really an issue of enforcement.

beauf

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Just back from some circuits around the perimeter roads and there were plenty of others doing likewise. There were probably slightly more cars than bikes and it certainly isn't as enjoyable as it was when the gates were closed mid-week as well as weekends. .

You want it back to completely closed similar to the first lock down. Thats a whole different thing.

Mercian Pro wrote: »

...The main safety issue was approaching cars pulling out to pass cyclists and forgetting there were other cyclists heading towards them at speed.

Arguably none should be "at speed". Its not a closed road. If people are driving or cycling with out consideration of others the OPW should be having a word with them.

irlirishkev

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Just back from some circuits around the perimeter roads and there were plenty of others doing likewise. There were probably slightly more cars than bikes and it certainly isn't as enjoyable as it was when the gates were closed mid-week as well as weekends. The main safety issue was approaching cars pulling out to pass cyclists and forgetting there were other cyclists heading towards them at speed.

Same.. and I noticed everything you mention. Couple of nasty overtakes pushing in between cyclists in places. Also, a fair bit of formula one style driving on bends.

I hadn't realised it was only weekends - I went down expecting the gates to be closed. I was so disappointed

beauf

irlirishkev wrote: »

Same.. and I noticed everything you mention. Couple of nasty overtakes between cyclists in places. Also, a fair bit of formula one style driving on bends.

I hadn't realised it was only weekends - I went down expecting the gates to be closed. I was so disappointed

Happens all over the place not just the park. You're probably just not expecting it the park.

Arguable its due to constant negativity to cyclists in the media. That people would prefer to risk injuring to killing a cyclist than giving way.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057655179

Mercian Pro

beauf wrote: »

You want it back to completely closed similar to the first lock down. Thats a whole different thing.

Arguably none should be "at speed". Its not a closed road. If people are driving or cycling with out consideration of others the OPW should be having a word with them.

It has never been "completely closed". The Parkgate Street and Castleknock entrances have always been kept open and a very small number of motorists used the perimeter roads even though the side gates were closed.


The problem is not the speed of the cyclists, it's drivers overtaking other cyclists when it is unsafe to do so (ie when a cyclists is approaching on the other side of the road). It's mainly happening on the hillier sections at the southern edge of the Park where drivers want to go faster than cyclists going uphill and ignore, or don't register, cyclists descending.