Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

Mercian Pro

From a FB post by Neasa Hourigan today:
"The minister has told me that the OPW/key stakeholders report on a traffic management plan for the Phoenix Park is due in the coming weeks and for public consultation early in the new year."

KevRossi

Mercian Pro wrote: »

From a FB post by Neasa Hourigan today:
"The minister has told me that the OPW/key stakeholders report on a traffic management plan for the Phoenix Park is due in the coming weeks and for public consultation early in the new year."

The Minister knows how to kick the can down the road. 'Consultation' in Jan/Feb/March.

No doubt he'll do a personal visit on a plssing wet, freezing cold day and come to the conclusion there's no actual demand for closing the gates as he can't see anyone using the roads.

a148pro

eeeee wrote: »

The fatality mentioned was due to a pedestrian in the cycle lane, they killed the cyclist.

I don't know if you mean this in literal terms, or in fault terms (or maybe you're just pointing out that the cyclist was killed not the pedestrian which is what most would imagine). If fault terms I'm not really sure that's fair?

I always wondered exactly what happened in this incident, the below seems to cover it in so far as its covered:-

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/cyclist-killed-in-phoenix-park-collision-was-loving-family-man-36386300.html

That cycle lane looked just like a footpath and I think most people thought it was. I was running in the park years before I realised it was a cycle lane. I don't know if that kind of red dyed tarmac would have made it more obvious?

Terrible unnecessary way for someone to lose their life

Seth Brundle

a148pro wrote: »

I was running in the park years before I realised it was a cycle lane. I don't know if that kind of red dyed tarmac would have made it more obvious?

Surely the painted images of a bicycle gave you an idea?

beauf

Hopefully they will come up with something that works. The time to do it is now with the lockdown. People have got used to the restrictions.

beauf

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Surely the painted images of a bicycle gave you an idea?

It was always a flawed layout.

cletus

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Surely the painted images of a bicycle gave you an idea?

Honestly, I'm not from Dublin, and most of the time I've spent in the Phoenix Park has been going to or coming from running events. It took me a while to realise that the "path" I was walking on was actually a cycle lane

Seth Brundle

beauf wrote: »

It was always a flawed layout.

Oh agreed. It would be instinctive for people to get out of a car and walk along the nearest path. To have the footpath another twenty meters into the field made little sense.

eeeee

I'm not from Dublin either, but the big Bike signs were a dead give away for the lane use. They're every 100m or so? Even less I think.
That said it wasn't a great layout, and I can see how someone could initially get out of their car into it, but then the signs appear, large and clear, how can someone could miss so many signs? So many!
The lack of car parking on chesterfield avenue was a big help in making it safer for both pedestrians and cyclists. It's better now cyclists are in the former carpark along it now, nice and all though the off road track was.

crazy 88

eeeee wrote: »

I'm not from Dublin either, but the big Bike signs were a dead give away for the lane use. They're every 100m or so? Even less I think.
That said it wasn't a great layout, and I can see how someone could initially get out of their car into it, but then the signs appear, large and clear, how can someone could miss so many signs? So many!
The lack of car parking on chesterfield avenue was a big help in making it safer for both pedestrians and cyclists. It's better now cyclists are in the former carpark along it now, nice and all though the off road track was.

I think most people just ignored the signs and walked in it anyway. Same as cycle lanes in Clontarf. Not so bad if they move out of the way for a cyclist. But even worse were the cyclists who went the wrong direction.
Yes it's a massive improvement now for all with the cycle lane in the breakdown lane. They should put permanent barriers there to make it a proper cycle lane

cletus

eeeee wrote: »

I'm not from Dublin either, but the big Bike signs were a dead give away for the lane use. They're every 100m or so? Even less I think.
That said it wasn't a great layout, and I can see how someone could initially get out of their car into it, but then the signs appear, large and clear, how can someone could miss so many signs? So many!
The lack of car parking on chesterfield avenue was a big help in making it safer for both pedestrians and cyclists. It's better now cyclists are in the former carpark along it now, nice and all though the off road track was.

The first time I realised I was walking in a bike lane, I had finished the Rock-'n'-roll half marathon. I was strolling along a path, chatting with my wife. There were probably hundreds of other people walking the same direction. I noticed the bike sign on the ground and realised I was in a bike lane. This was maybe the third time we had done this run, and walked back for the bus, without me noticing.

Should I have? Perhaps.

Is the system as it stands less than adequate? I would say yes.

Not all infringements on cyclist's rights are malicious, or cynical.

Mercian Pro

Walked (!) what had been the cyclepath from the Phoenix roundabout to Parkgate Street yesterday. Oddly enough, as well as having pedestrian signs and crossed out bike signs, there are arrows indicating that this is the city bound side. Despite all this, one cyclist seemed quite annoyed that we didn't step off the path as she approached heading west. I suppose what it shows is that no matter what system is put in place, there will always be some idiots who choose to do whatever they want.

KevRossi

I think it's a bit obvious that there are serious design issues in the Park around Chesterfield Ave. The fact that so many people are confused just means it isn't intuitive. A decision needs to be made if the new bike lanes are to be kept. If so, the new path (former car parking on hard shoulder), needs to be properly surfaced, small kerb put in for segregation and proper signage installed on the surface. Painting it red, cyclist and pedestrian orientated surface signage and priority for peds and cyclists over cars is what's needed.

While they are at it, they need a dozen raised zebra crossings along Chesterfield for pedestrians, as well as several access points from the former cycle path to the pedestrian path. The railing that is currently there is too much of a barrier.

As well as enforcement in the rest of the park and a fully sustainable approach to travel to the park as well as parking there and using it. But that's a longer story.

De Bhál

eeeee wrote: »

All gates should never have been opened again to motor traffic, even the OPW didn't want to open them again. Makes no sense for how a park should be used.

I'd be all for that, but a carpark needs to be built inside every gate then, like the one at the zoo with berms all round to hide the cars. I'd be against carparks but if they were to close the park completely to cars then you can't have people parking all round it on footpaths etc.
The park is massive so a few carparks at the edge wouldn't be much of an issue I'd say.

I doubt it will be ever car free anyway what with the zoo, ordinance survey, aras, garda hq etc within

plodder

Another park worth comparing with is Richmond park in London. It's a similar size (slightly bigger actually). There are perimeter roads, but no direct through road - so therefore no real incentive for traffic to use it as a through route. Also, you can see what they did to discourage parking on those roads. Very simple and straightforward.

If it were up to me, I think I'd allow traffic as is only on the North road (from the NCR entrance), and put electronic barriers on all the other entrances so only people with permits could get in. That would make a 20-30 km/h speed limit much easier to enforce. Shuttle buses from the Navan road train station and Heuston maybe, and some form of enhanced parking facilities at some of the entrances.

beauf

De Bhál wrote: »

....

I doubt it will be ever car free anyway what with the zoo, ordinance survey, aras, arda hq etc within

Hospitals, nursing home, care home, cafes, playground, visitor center, Aras, ambassador residence, cricket clubs, Polo clubs, Stately home and gardens.

Lately its actually been busiest with cars and parking issues at weekend. So a lot of traffic is simply people using the park for recreation.

Is be very curious about the breakdown of zoo annual pass holders, where they are located and how many cancelled and didn't renew this year vs other years.
I would assume it's locals and more family friendly areas. More suburbs than city center and outside of Dublin. I could be entirely wrong.

magicbastarder

two guys i went to school with lived in the phoenix park. that's some back garden to have.

JustAThought

magicbastarder wrote: »

two guys i went to school with lived in the phoenix park. that's some back garden to have.

Yes - the largest walled garden in Europe and some selfish hoors want it made available and accessible only to people who live locally or on a direct commute route or who are fit enough to cycle to it from wherever they live.

Maybe if we bricked it over or planted a few hundred thousand tenament slums foc for whomever wants one they will be happy? With bicycle racks of course.

a148pro

KevRossi wrote: »

I think it's a bit obvious that there are serious design issues in the Park around Chesterfield Ave. The fact that so many people are confused just means it isn't intuitive. A decision needs to be made if the new bike lanes are to be kept. If so, the new path (former car parking on hard shoulder), needs to be properly surfaced, small kerb put in for segregation and proper signage installed on the surface. Painting it red, cyclist and pedestrian orientated surface signage and priority for peds and cyclists over cars is what's needed.

While they are at it, they need a dozen raised zebra crossings along Chesterfield for pedestrians, as well as several access points from the former cycle path to the pedestrian path. The railing that is currently there is too much of a barrier.

As well as enforcement in the rest of the park and a fully sustainable approach to travel to the park as well as parking there and using it. But that's a longer story.

Might also be an idea to extend the existing off road cycle lanes around the park as well? There are some but not many. If you had good cycle lanes off the main roads, together with decent prioritised cycle junctions wherever those lanes crossed roads then the cyclists could just be kept off the roads which would reduce the friction? Put more around the 14 acres or whatever that but is called to avoid having to travel around that by road.

You'd have to be cautious of ruining the park for walkers though (i.e., if putting a cycle lane along the furry glen area). Maybe dedicated places to lock bikes allowing people to then walk into those areas.

magicbastarder

JustAThought wrote: »

Yes - the largest walled garden in Europe

you sure?

Seth Brundle

JustAThought wrote: »

some selfish hoors want it made available and accessible only to people who live locally or on a direct commute route or who are fit enough to cycle to it from wherever they live.

I don't believe anyone suggested that. Maybe you can clarify where that was said.

KevRossi

JustAThought wrote: »

Yes - the largest walled garden in Europe and some selfish hoors want it made available and accessible only to people who live locally or on a direct commute route or who are fit enough to cycle to it from wherever they live.

Maybe if we bricked it over or planted a few hundred thousand tenament slums foc for whomever wants one they will be happy? With bicycle racks of course.

Meybe we should open the 15 acres up properly and have a full 4x4 obstacle course on it, or a make Europes largest motocross track in there. I mean full accessibility should be for all if I understand you correctly.

Stark

On that note, have you noticed how inaccessible some of the nicest parts of the Wicklow mountains national park are? I mean how is someone of limited fitness meant to get all the way to the top of those peaks for the lovely views without a road to drive up and a car park at the top?

Mercian Pro

magicbastarder wrote: »

you sure?

Not even the bigest enclosed urban park in these islands - Richmond Park in London is quite a bit larger.

http://www.joergsteegmueller.com/2018/03/07/phoenix-park-is-not-the-biggest-city-park-in-europe/

Mercian Pro

a148pro wrote: »

You'd have to be cautious of ruining the park for walkers though (i.e., if putting a cycle lane along the furry glen area).

The main roure through the Furry Glen is a shared path accessible to pedestrians and cyclists.

a148pro

Interesting - another fecking cycle lane I didn't know about and must have run through a hundred times!

beauf

Stark wrote: »

On that note, have you noticed how inaccessible some of the nicest parts of the Wicklow mountains national park are? I mean how is someone of limited fitness meant to get all the way to the top of those peaks for the lovely views without a road to drive up and a car park at the top?

How long does it take you walk from Dublin to there?

tomasrojo

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Not even the bigest enclosed urban park in these islands - Richmond Park in London is quite a bit larger.

http://www.joergsteegmueller.com/2018/03/07/phoenix-park-is-not-the-biggest-city-park-in-europe/

I'd vaguely heard that the Phoenix Park, while large, wasn't of a record-setting size.

I'd take slight issue with this:

So, what is the “trick”? …here it comes:
Phoenix Park is the largest ENCLOSED PUBLIC park in a CAPITAL city in Europe.

Isn’t this as if you said Dublin Airport is the biggest airport in the world … out of all the airports that are in a city that starts with D, uses Euro for currency and has a Spire.

It's easier to have a large park outside of a capital city with a premium on land use, so the "capital city" qualifier is reasonable. But adding "enclosed" to that does seem like special pleading alright. Does "enclosed" mean "having a high wall", rather than railings or something like that?

Stark

Kind of reminds me of the various tricks ski resorts use to claim they're the largest

magicbastarder

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'd take slight issue with this:

he states
"Phoenix Park is the largest ENCLOSED PUBLIC park in a CAPITAL city in Europe."
he mentioned richmond park. which is enclosed, public, and in a capital city.

the phoenix park still doesn't come first even by those narrow criteria. unless you take distance from the city centre into account. the phoenix park is 2.5km from o'connell bridge, richmond park is over 12km from the centre of london.