Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

tomasrojo

beauf wrote: »

It's not the first time though. They tried this in the 80's and the bus just got stuck in all the traffic. The problems in the park are not just commuter's arguably its worse at the weekends.

Still well worth trying and making it work. This is the time to do it for sure.

That's interesting. Was it a commuter service to/from Castleknock or something like that?

magicbastarder

the bus service would be *to* the park rather than *through* the park, yeah?

beauf

tomasrojo wrote: »

That's interesting. Was it a commuter service to/from Castleknock or something like that?

No only went around inside the park. It's was aimed at commuters not an orbital route. Long time ago my memory could be faulty. The idea being walk to the park, get bus to far end, walk into town.

Back in the 90s 1-2hr tailbacks in the park were not uncommon. Traffic all over was worse than it is now even with smaller number. That's my memory anyway.

buffalo

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0111/1188934-phoenix-park-dublin/

It is understood that under the new proposals, Chesterfield Avenue will remain open for commuter traffic, but alongside a 30km/h limit and pedestrian crossing points.

The side roads would be closed to through traffic by a mixture of cul-de-sacs and road closures

...

These proposals would almost double the amount of dedicated cycleways, with an extra 14km of track while upgrading the existing 17km.

There's a lot to like, except:

but other changes, such as a cul de sac on Knockmaroon Road, could take up to seven years

tomasrojo

It sounds good. I've said it before, but it's totally bizarre that we've gone decades with no pedestrian crossings on Chesterfield Ave.

Pinch Flat

cgcsb wrote: »

We're passed that I think. The folks parking their mom-wagons up on the paths and on the grass are now beeping and tutting at eachother.

Sad to see how carved up all the grass verges have become in the park. Drivers don't care - they'll just plonk their car at the nearest deer / rainbow / squirrel or whatever. I was doing laps there yesterday - it really is a drivers paradise. Several close passes. One ridiculous one on the approach to the furry glen. pedestrians unable to cross safely at chesterfield avenue at the chesterfield monument - cars are barely letting off while they speed through this roundabout. Cars speeding unabated generally. No control or enforcement, so pretty much do what you like.

I think the plans to limit the speed to 30kph should be welcomed - it'll default to 50 mph plus anyway, unless it's enforced - not sure about the bye laws but it needs speed ramps down chesterfield avenue with pass throughs for bikes.

buffalo

Report now available at https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/064d4-minister-odonovan-announces-publication-of-phoenix-park-transport-and-mobility-options-report/

The public consultation will commence on January 29th, 2021 and a further notification will be issued in advance of this date. The consultation will remain open for public input for six weeks, until 12th March 2021.

Mercian Pro

buffalo wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0111/1188934-phoenix-park-dublin/
:

Excellent news indeed. As mentioned here before, closing Chesterfield Avenue to through traffic was never going to be a runner in the short to medium term. The best option is to make it less attractive to commuters and a 30km/h limit should do that providing it is enforced. Great to see the perimeter and side roads are to be closed to cars other than for access.

Assuming this leak is accurate, it will be essential that the proposals are well supported when the report is published and the consultation process starts. No doubt there will be plenty of opposition from those who regularly use the Park as a rat-run.

VonLuck

If they implement the 30km/h speed limit it should be accompanied by traffic calming measures. No point having a speed limit like that if the road is not designed to suit. Even a cautious driver would subconsciously be inclined to go faster than 30km/h on Chesterfield Avenue as it currently is.

Duckjob

The side roads would be closed to through traffic by a mixture of cul-de-sacs and road closures

Unless some level of deterrents are brought in, I can see entitled drivers just going off road to bypass whatever barriers there are. I mean, nobodys going to tell them they can't drive where they want to go when they pay their road tax.

buffalo

Pages 15 and 16 have the proposed cycle and road networks.

Road doesn't change a whole lot - Ashtown gate to be made entry only, Cabra gate bus only; a section of the Upper Glen Road (as you come in the Chapelizod Gate and turn right) will be closed off, and a section around the Cabra gate restricted to bus traffic.

Those changes should decrease the amount of traffic in the SW half of the park a good bit I think. I can't see many routes from the Chapelizod gate that are worth diverting through the Park for, except maybe Castleknock gate.

I'll reserve judgement on the cycle route until I see what sort of tracks they intend to build. None of the existing infrastructure is great.

Bus route comes in Parkgate St, up Chesterfield Avenue and turns right at Phoenix Monument roundabout (by the Áras gates) and then out the Cabra gate. edit: actually, that seems to be just the preferred option? The report is massive - 140 pages!

Birdie Num Num

beauf wrote: »

No only went around inside the park. It's was aimed at commuters not an orbital route. Long time ago my memory could be faulty. The idea being walk to the park, get bus to far end, walk into town.

Back in the 90s 1-2hr tailbacks in the park were not uncommon. Traffic all over was worse than it is now even with smaller number. That's my memory anyway.

It was never backed up in traffic. It circled the park through the day pretty much traffic free. It was muted as transport for park users and the many people who worked there. It was axed as no one ever used it. I don’t think I ever saw a passenger on it in all the time it was in use. It was a single decker and I don’t think it lasted more than one or two years. Pretty sure it was later than the 90s. Early 00s I thought.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Phoenix_Park_Shuttle_bus_99D88702,_Dublin,_Ireland_-Aircoach-21Dec209.jpg

beauf

I was backed up in traffic in the park in the 1990s. Dunno how it avoided it.

beauf

buffalo wrote: »

Pages 15 and 16 have the proposed cycle and road networks.

Road doesn't change a whole lot ...

Those changes should decrease the amount of traffic in the SW half of the park a good bit I think...

Pretty much stops all traffic except that doing straight through. Isn't that basically what they did during the lockdowns. Won't it have the same effect?

Larbre34

What they're proposing in principle isn't bad, but they are over thinking a few things.

Considering isolating sections of the Park for cars - enter one gate, use nearby carpark, leave by same gate or next nearest - is a recipe for congestion in busy times, not just in the Park, but in the residential areas outside some of the tighter spots like Blackhorse Avenue.

My submission will be to continue the existing layout at the Wellington obelisk all the way around the perimeter roads, ie a one-way traffic calmed lane for cars and two-way cycle route the whole way. This would well serve all the employment sites within the Park as well as the sports pitches etc where minibuses and ambulances and so on need to get to, while enhancing the cyclist and pedestrian priority. Then all the perimeter gates can alternately be one way in and one way out, reducing conflict further.

The shuttle bus is a fine idea to tick a green box, but I also think it'll be empty most of the time. Yes tourists might use it to get from the Luas in high season, but on a wet day in February it'll just be stuck in traffic making its way too and from Heuston.

The designated crossing points on Chesterfield Avenue are long overdue, my own feeling is that they were resisted by OPW people in the Park because they look so obtrusive, but they should be able to do them sensitively.

Once thats done I think the speed limit on the Avenue is less important. 50 is well observed at the moment generally and with the expansive sight lines that already exist with the parking ban on the hard shoulder, I'm not sure theres much to be gained by making it 30, other than some PR guff. The perimeter roads should certainly be 30 though.

Even as someone who has resisted the use of sledgehammers to crack nuts and who was one of those to convince Patrick O'Donovan to open the perimeter gates last summer, I can't for the life of me see how the changes, once agreed, will take all of 7 years!

beauf

Larbre34 wrote: »

.... I can't for the life of me see how the changes, once agreed, will take all of 7 years!

This probably...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNY6ZstdUdY&ab_channel=BasedGod
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja9RIXyAbRw&ab_channel=TriciaRichards

Thelonious Monk

https://www.thejournal.ie/phoenix-park-traffic-5322374-Jan2021/

The comments. Agh. Road tax. What about people who want to drive to the park from Kildare. I live beside it and have never seen it congested etc. Ouch my freakin' eyes.

Pinch Flat

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/phoenix-park-traffic-5322374-Jan2021/

The comments. Agh. Road tax. What about people who want to drive to the park from Kildare. I live beside it and have never seen it congested etc. Ouch my freakin' eyes.

Lol "Getting sick and tired of the roads I pay for through road tax been taken away where will this S hit end"
That sums up Johnny motorists sentiments

Thelonious Monk

I live about 11km from it I think, and I don't just expect to be able to drive there on a sunny weekend and park wherever I want. Do they not understand that it's unsustainable? There are more and more cars on the road in one of the most congested cities in the world, and if we don't start restricting them somewhat things will only get far worse.

beauf

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I live about 11km from it I think, and I don't just expect to be able to drive there on a sunny weekend and park wherever I want. Do they not understand that it's unsustainable? There are more and more cars on the road in one of the most congested cities in the world, and if we don't start restricting them somewhat things will only get far worse.

All true of course.

But for me most of the time I go to the park I avoid the castleknock gate, and the bottleneck that is castleknock village. This plan would make me and everyone else all have to go through the same bottleneck for every journey to the park. Likewise coming out of it.

But I can just go somewhere else and avoid both places. Especially at peak times. Or just always..

Thelonious Monk

beauf wrote: »

But I can just go somewhere else and avoid both places. Especially at peak times. Or just always..

Exactly. Why anyone in their right mind would drive there at peak times is beyond me.

MojoMaker

Larbre34 wrote: »

Even as someone who was one of those to convince Patrick O'Donovan to open the perimeter gates last summer.

Ah no

beauf

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Exactly. Why anyone in their right mind would drive there at peak times is beyond me.

I assume they aren't regulars. Though some people are quite happy sitting in traffic.

Larbre34

MojoMaker wrote: »

Ah no

Ah yes. Having them closed was causing mayhem within and around the Park and unnecessary pollution.

MojoMaker

I'm curious, how did it affect you? As a local in Castleknock the feeling was pretty positive towards the gate closures. Traffic was down because it was essential travel only (although many people flouted this), and the park was a lovely place to be - for walkers and cyclists.

Larbre34

In the three weekends preceeding the gates reopening in July, restrictions had eased and the weather was beautiful.

As a local myself and someone who would be in the Park 3 or 4 times a week, the sight of traffic jammed both ways the full length of Chesterfield Avenue made me despair on those weekends. It wasn't just down to the gates at the time, the car parks remained blocked off. It was totally poor and over zealous handling of the situation by OPW at the time.

Once O'Donovan ordered the gates opened on a Friday, the following weekend saw no such issues and everything, for everybody, was much more enjoyable.

plodder

The nicest part of the park imo is the section near the southern perimeter roads that are already blocked to through traffic. So, it's great to see that continuing with more cul-de-sacs.

I'd agree the 30km/h speed limit is great in principle, and will have to be enforced, but hopefully not with speed bumps. I see they did some case studies including Centennial park in Australia. The speed limit there is 30km/h and is "strictly enforced". I presume that would need legislation and investment in detection equipment and man power to achieve.

Also, I see the bridge plan from Kilmainham and the War Memorial gardens is not completely dead, but the accessible link to climb the height to the park appears to be. That's a shame. It could really have been a significant attraction in its own right.

Peregrine

Larbre34 wrote: »

Once O'Donovan ordered the gates opened on a Friday, the following weekend saw no such issues and everything, for everybody, was much more enjoyable.

I remember. The pollution from all the cars trying to park on North Road was so bad, I went home.

Cars parked on footpaths and grass verges. Saw a wheelchair being pushed around illegally parked cars. Even I couldn't get through safely.

I'm glad it was enjoyable for you.

beauf

plodder wrote: »

....
Also, I see the bridge plan from Kilmainham and the War Memorial gardens is not completely dead, but the accessible link to climb the height to the park appears to be. That's a shame. It could really have been a significant attraction in its own right.

I agree. It would be nice to link them, and I also think it would enhance both.

Weepsie

Larbre34 wrote: »

Once O'Donovan ordered the gates opened on a Friday, the following weekend saw no such issues and everything, for everybody, was much more enjoyable.

Except for those running, cycling or walking in the park.

Whereas the journey to the park and around it was more enjoyable. The opening of the gates and allowing traffic around it more, made the park itself immediately a whole lot less enjoyable.

It should be what is the best way to use the park, not what is the best way to ensure some are not inconvenienced.