Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

MayoSalmon

VonLuck wrote: »

I think the problem is bigger than just widening the gates. The roadways leading into them don't really allow much of a readjustment. For example the Castleknock gate is at an acute angle to a bend on the main road and I can't even begin to describe the problems at Ashtown gate.

I wonder what exactly needs to happen for somebody to change the design/format of this gate

BabysCoffee

beauf wrote: »

They grazed cattle in the park not sure when they stopped. But they had cattle grids when they did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiViYr8dIcU&list=RDiiViYr8dIcU&start_radio=1&rv=iiViYr8dIcU&ab_channel=BrianLarsen

Very bizarre ending

breezy1985

ozzy jr wrote: »

Might be worthy of a separate thread, but how great it is at the moment to cycle around the park with very little traffic and no parking on the main road.

On Saturday it was packed with people of all ages on bikes. The cycle paths were still full of walkers but they weren't needed as the roads were free.

Wouldn't it be great if they closed the park to traffic at weekends. Unlikely I know with the zoo being there, but if they just opened Chesterfield avenue and left the rest car free, it would be a great start.

The Mall in London do it on Sundays. And people love it too judging by the foot/cycle traffic

VonLuck

MayoSalmon wrote: »

I wonder what exactly needs to happen for somebody to change the design/format of this gate

It's truly bizarre. No one has a clue who has the right of way and everyone is basically winging it, hoping that they don't cause an accident.

buffalo

Reminder that the closing date for submissions on the mobility plan is this Friday.

Online: https://phoenixpark.virtualeventspace.io/
Email: parkmobilityreport@opw.ie
Post: FREEPOST – FDN7 7468,
Observations on Phoenix Park Transport and Mobility Study,
Superintendent’s Office,
Whitefields,
Phoenix Park,
Dublin D08 KDC4

There's some good points (for me anyway) on the GP councillor Michael Pidgeon's page, that can be appropriated as you see fit: http://pidgeon.ie/phoenix-park-mobility-plan/

buffalo

Last call today! Do you want an end to through traffic? Do you want all the new cycle lanes to be wide enough so you can overtake families safely on your road bike? Dublin Bike stands in the Park? Zebra crossing instead of traffic lights on Chesterfield Avenue?

These are all things I mentioned in my feedback. You don't ask, you don't get.

buffalo wrote: »

Reminder that the closing date for submissions on the mobility plan is this Friday.

Online: https://phoenixpark.virtualeventspace.io/
Email: parkmobilityreport@opw.ie
Post: FREEPOST – FDN7 7468,
Observations on Phoenix Park Transport and Mobility Study,
Superintendent’s Office,
Whitefields,
Phoenix Park,
Dublin D08 KDC4

There's some good points (for me anyway) on the GP councillor Michael Pidgeon's page, that can be appropriated as you see fit: http://pidgeon.ie/phoenix-park-mobility-plan/

Amirani

Sent along feedback on that today, and encouraged some family members to do similar. Hopefully we get some good outcomes.

Mercian Pro

I've been picking up a coffee and biscuit in the Twirly Gate in Chapelizod when on my Park circuits and noticed a number of posters around urging locals to oppose the traffic changes in the Park. They are concerned about the impact on the village of the rat-runners being forced out of the Park onto the fairly narrow local roads. No doubt they have been lobbying their TDs and Councillors and this is probably replicated in other villages/centres around the perimeter as well.

On a totally separate matter, I had a close call this morning coming down past the Magazine Fort towards the Islandbridge Gate. There is a tightish downhill blind turn and I had taken it fairly tight which was just as well as there was a car coming towards me on the wrong side of the road. The driver had pulled out to pass a cyclist who was struggling up the hill into a headwind. Luckily for me, there was a narrow gap between the ditch and the car that I managed to squeeze through. On the next circuit I checked the road markings and, while there is a solid white line on the lower part of the hill, it mysteriously vanishes half way up. Irrespective of the road marking, the driver should have waited untill he was past the blind bend before even considering overtaking.

magicbastarder

FWIW, this is FG's submission.

beauf

Mercian Pro wrote: »

I've been picking up a coffee and biscuit in the Twirly Gate in Chapelizod when on my Park circuits and noticed a number of posters around urging locals to oppose the traffic changes in the Park. They are concerned about the impact on the village of the rat-runners being forced out of the Park onto the fairly narrow local roads. No doubt they have been lobbying their TDs and Councillors and this is probably replicated in other villages/centres around the perimeter as well.

On a totally separate matter, I had a close call this morning coming down past the Magazine Fort towards the Islandbridge Gate. There is a tightish downhill blind turn and I had taken it fairly tight which was just as well as there was a car coming towards me on the wrong side of the road. The driver had pulled out to pass a cyclist who was struggling up the hill into a headwind. Luckily for me, there was a narrow gap between the ditch and the car that I managed to squeeze through. On the next circuit I checked the road markings and, while there is a solid white line on the lower part of the hill, it mysteriously vanishes half way up. Irrespective of the road marking, the driver should have waited untill he was past the blind bend before even considering overtaking.

I guess we should all approach blind bends expecting the unexpected.

buffalo

magicbastarder wrote: »

FWIW, this is FG's submission.

The Castleknock gates element of that is very reminiscent of Strand Road objections.

"Hey, you're reducing motor traffic over there, that could cause extra traffic over here" is met with "don't reduce any traffic" rather than "let's reduce traffic here too!"

magicbastarder

not included - what FG are going to actually tell patrick o'donovan to do.

beauf

buffalo wrote: »

The Castleknock gates element of that is very reminiscent of Strand Road objections.

"Hey, you're reducing motor traffic over there, that could cause extra traffic over here" is met with "don't reduce any traffic" rather than "let's reduce traffic here too!"

Stand road plan is reducing traffic in the village, to facilitate cycling to school amongst other things. Whereas in this plan they are increasing traffic in at least two villages and there no extra provision for cycling in either of these villages or the surrounding roads, due getting to school etc.

So how are these similar.... and how will it decrease traffic or improve cycling facilities around these villages? Cycling to school etc. Considering they've just built a very large Supermarket in the middle of the village.

beauf

magicbastarder wrote: »

not included - what FG are going to actually tell patrick o'donovan to do.

They'll do wait to see what the popular vote is and go with the flow. That will be the loudest of their constituents, not necessarily the outcome of this public consultation.

buffalo

beauf wrote: »

Stand road plan is reducing traffic in the village, to facilitate cycling to school amongst other things. Whereas in this plan they are increasing traffic in at least two villages and there no extra provision for cycling in either of these villages or the surrounding roads, due getting to school etc.

So how are these similar.... and how will it decrease traffic or improve cycling facilities around these villages? Cycling to school etc. Considering they've just built a very large Supermarket in the middle of the village.

You've entirely missed the point of my post.

Strand Road is not taking place in a village, the objectors claim that it will lead to an increase in traffic in residential areas where there are children cycling to school, etc. Sound familiar?

There is no provision in either plan to improve the surrounding areas, but rather than seize the opportunity to piggy back on the plans and do something constructive, it's easier to object to any changes and keep the status quo. No worse, but no better.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Stand road plan is reducing traffic in the village, to facilitate cycling to school amongst other things. Whereas in this plan they are increasing traffic in at least two villages and there no extra provision for cycling in either of these villages or the surrounding roads, due getting to school etc.

So how are these similar.... and how will it decrease traffic or improve cycling facilities around these villages? Cycling to school etc. Considering they've just built a very large Supermarket in the middle of the village.

Hmm, so you're advocating we remove additional lanes on other roads to implement a network of cycle lanes all over the city to allow school kids to cycle to school safely, regardless of where they live or go to school.

Where do I sign!?!?

beauf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hmm, so you're advocating we remove additional lanes on other roads to implement a network of cycle lanes all over the city to allow school kids to cycle to school safely, regardless of where they live or go to school.
Where do I sign!?!?

Hmm so you want to been cars from within the M50 so we can turn the Quays into a BMX park. Let us know when you start that petition so I can get the popcorn on.

beauf

buffalo wrote: »

You've entirely missed the point of my post.

Strand Road is not taking place in a village, the objectors claim that it will lead to an increase in traffic in residential areas where there are children cycling to school, etc. Sound familiar?

There is no provision in either plan to improve the surrounding areas, but rather than seize the opportunity to piggy back on the plans and do something constructive, it's easier to object to any changes and keep the status quo. No worse, but no better.

Not really you've made comparison between two completely different areas/issues where the only common issue is traffic. It's not even the same kind of traffic, not even remotely similar.

I was being sarcastic since there almost non existent interest and even less infrastructure in kids cycling to school across D15.

But the point remains how do you propose this will decrease traffic out side the park. Or is that irrelevant.

beauf

beauf wrote: »

Hmm so you want to been cars from within the M50 so we can turn the Quays into a BMX park. Let us know when you start that petition so I can get the popcorn on.

Who said anything about banning cars or BMX parks? I'm talking about young kids being able to cycle safely to school.

I guess it comes down to what choices you want to make for vulnerable road users



Which choice below makes the most sense to you? Left or right

beauf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who said anything about banning cars or BMX parks? I'm talking about young kids being able to cycle safely to school.

I guess it comes down to what choices you want to make for vulnerable road users
...

So how does this plan improve cycling infrastructure for young kids getting to school... Which schools...

buffalo

beauf wrote: »

Not really you've made comparison between two completely different areas/issues where the only common issue is traffic. It's not even the same kind of traffic, not even remotely similar.

I was being sarcastic since there almost non existent interest and even less infrastructure in kids cycling to school across D15.

But the point remains how do you propose this will decrease traffic out side the park. Or is that irrelevant.

I feel like you're not actually reading my posts. Traffic and its levels are the common factor. I have no proposals to reduce traffic, but that is indeed irrelevant, the point is that those objecting should have some. Instead they just shoot down any changes.

beauf

You said it was the same as Strand road. Its completely different to Strand road. Even if you ignore the whole young kids cycling to to school which is completely irrelevant to the phoenix park.
Its not even the same kind of traffic. The main issue with the traffic in Strand road is that the one way will force traffic in through the village, to rat run through all residential roads. They are doing that to facilitate a two lane cycle way and improve cycling, a better alternative transport. Of course they are doing all this on historic low traffic due to Lock down. How sensible all that is open for debate. The numbers don't make a lot of sense. But if you want to try it, now is the time, when there's less traffic around.

But this will not happen around the Phoenix Park. There are no alternative routes to rat run, and they are building no cycling infrastructure to get to the park. Rather the opposite, they are concentrating traffic into known bottlenecks, and the roads people cycle to get to the park. Saying this will make traffic worse, is not objecting for no reason. Its just pointing out a simple matter of fact. That you object to people objecting, illustrates there is no point suggesting options. All suggestions are shot down except those that want the park closed for traffic.

So rather than arguing about it. just go ahead and do it.

My objection is these comparison which make no sense. We have pictures of HGV being posted. They haven't been allowed in the Park for decades.
They don't even fit down the roads we are talking about. When's the last time you saw a young kids cycling to school and mixing it with HGVs on Knockmaroon hill.

buffalo

beauf wrote: »

You said it was the same as Strand road.

I'm not sure if I'm wasting my time replying. I did not say it was the same, I said:

buffalo wrote: »

The Castleknock gates element of that is very reminiscent of Strand Road objections.

beauf wrote: »

Its completely different to Strand road. Even if you ignore the whole young kids cycling to to school which is completely irrelevant to the phoenix park.
Its not even the same kind of traffic. The main issue with the traffic in Strand road is that the one way will force traffic in through the village, to rat run through all residential roads. They are doing that to facilitate a two lane cycle way and improve cycling, a better alternative transport. Of course they are doing all this on historic low traffic due to Lock down. How sensible all that is open for debate. The numbers don't make a lot of sense. But if you want to try it, now is the time, when there's less traffic around.

But this will not happen around the Phoenix Park. There are no alternative routes to rat run, and they are building no cycling infrastructure to get to the park. Rather the opposite, they are concentrating traffic into known bottlenecks, and the roads people cycle to get to the park. Saying this will make traffic worse, is not objecting for no reason. Its just pointing out a simple matter of fact. That you object to people objecting, illustrates there is no point suggesting options. All suggestions are shot down except those that want the park closed for traffic.

I'm glad at least you've educated yourself about what the Strand Road trial is actually doing. However, you've made up more stuff if it's directed at me. I never said people were objecting for no reason, and I never shot down any suggestions apart from 'do nothing'.

Let me spell it out for you:

Strand Road: being closed to some traffic to facilitate more active travel
Phoenix Park: being closed to some traffic to facilitate more active travel

Sandymount residents' typical response (via STC): Don't do that, there'll be more traffic over here. Our area is special, where traffic evaporation won't happen.
Castleknock residents' typical response (via FG): Don't do that, there'll be more traffic over here. Our area is special, where traffic evaporation won't happen.

Sandymount residents' potential response: Do that, but only if you also limit traffic over here as well and build cycling facilities for children cycling to school on other routes
Castleknock residents' potential response: Do that, but only if you also limit traffic over here as well and build cycling facilities for children cycling to school on other routes

beauf

The Strand Road has a coordinated traffic plan for the area. They are creating cycling infrastructure that joins up with other cycling infrastructure. They are trying something new. Their predictions from the study is an increase of up to 100% on some roads that's factoring in the reduction due to Covid which is temporary. So will increase once lockdown is lifted.

The Phoenix Park plan has no traffic plan for the area. They are not building cycling infrastructure that links to anything. Pre Covid the addition of Supermarket to the village and associated junction changes, caused extensive tail backs all the way back to Mount Sackville. Same to Castleknock Gate. During Covid changes to the park created similar traffic chaos across the area, especially at weekends. This is repeat of that only with vastly more traffic on the worst routes.

They've done this before both during Lockdown and in the past when they closed North Road for no reason. They were forced to do a 180 almost everytime. But hey lets just repeat that.

Traffic dissipation can work. Indeed happened before when Chesterfield Ave was closed for road works for most of year (much of for no reason as they only worked on one section at a time) and the other gates remained open. But the park was noticeable less busy as most people using the park do so by car. As the chaos during Lockdown on fine days demonstrates.

But let's ignore that and say Strand Rd and Phoenix Park is all just traffic blah blah. That's a much more "educated" and researched response. And yeah there's a lot of point in engaging in debate with that kinda response.

But hey, To make these changes requires very little. Just a few temporary road blocks and signs and they are done. Could have it done overnight. Paddy Day would be good time to test. Let's crack on with it...

beauf

What they really need to do now is remove traffic from the Quays and Strawberry Beds.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/cities/2016/sep/26/paris-council-approves-ban-vehicles-right-bank-seine-road

Maybe Stephens Green and O'Connell Street at the same time.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2020/04/30/au-revoir-les-automobiles-paris-to-close-major-boulevard-to-cars/

Perfect opportunity being missed with Covid. We seem to be doing the opposite.

https://irishcycle.com/2020/08/25/cycle-lane-saved-on-limericks-shannon-bridge-but-other-covid-19-mobility-measures-removed/

MojoMaker

Just a coincidence I'm sure, but anywhere else except near where you live, right beauf? :pac:

beauf

MojoMaker wrote: »

Just a coincidence I'm sure, but anywhere else except near where you live, right beauf? :pac:

So we've mentioned southside, Phoenix park, Paris and London. Do I live near all these no. Do I live near Castlekknock gates no. Do I live in Castleknock Village no. Do I live in Chapelizod no. Do I use Castleknock Gate, or Castleknock or Chapelizod Village on a regular basis. Daily, weekly. No. I avoid both unless I have no choice. Can I walk or cycle to the park. Yes, do I, yes. do I use the Park for cycling to work, used to yes. Do I have a lot of experience with the park yes. I know Strand road area less well. But I know it well enough, I would go there for lunch and cycle down the bike shop in Sandymount on occasion. I've pretty much driven or cycled over most of Dublin at various times over many years.

But what is your point. I've no opinion or its less valid, because I do or don't live there.

beauf

They could implement these changes overnight. They should just do that. It not like anyone's listening to other peoples opinions or experience anyway.

OPW, still haven't fixed the bike lane surface from Parkgate street.

Larbre34

I think if the Strand Road Court case is going to prove anything, is that local authorities and bodies like the OPW absolutely can't just do what they like overnight. Quite the contrary.

beauf

Larbre34 wrote: »

I think if the Strand Road Court case is going to prove anything, is that local authorities and bodies like the OPW absolutely can't just do what they like overnight. Quite the contrary.

Well its a park not a public road.
Do they have to consult with anyone if they close a gate.
I have no idea I'm just asking.