Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

beauf

...Going to be 20 degrees next week. Will that make more or less people use the parks....

Will that be cause it's sunny or because they aren't working.

MojoMaker

It's hard to follow, are you advocating for a status quo system where nothing changes and cars are allowed to resume using the park as a means to get to/from the Liffey quays and beyond, or are you advocating for a reduction in motorised traffic through the park so that it may be returned to its citizens as a public amenity, or some middle ground that's not really clear?

In my own confusion it seems like you are lobbying for motoring traffic at the expense of pedestrian and bike traffic but I don't want to put my foot in it.

Weepsie

beauf wrote: »

Same with Mary's hospital. You have to drive around the park to get at it, due to the one way gate. Why they can't build a wider gate to match what's there already I have no idea.
.

The gates are there longer than some of the roads. They're very likely protected / listed in someway.

I was out by 1 k on the length of chesterfield avenue, but that still leaves room for roughly 1500 cars to park, and I have been through it enough times to see every space being used.

And thats before we start with an awful lot of the illegal parking that happens in the park and the parking on the grass.


Convenience for privatae vehicles should always be the very last consideration given. There should not be that much public space left over for people to leave something sitting idle for up 10 hours a day (as happens during the week)

mvt

Just back from a nice spin through the park- after putting in a bit of effort during the week it was nice to stroll around.
Took a bit of a detour home,within my five K's, to check out the new bike lane on the north quays & can only wonder what they were thinking.
Also slightly disheartening to see a GB reg estate towing a camping trailer with a two bike rack crossing against me on the east link bridge with the wicklow mountains in the background.

beauf

Weepsie wrote: »

The gates are there longer than some of the roads. They're very likely protected / listed in someway.

I was out by 1 k on the length of chesterfield avenue, but that still leaves room for roughly 1500 cars to park, and I have been through it enough times to see every space being used.

And thats before we start with an awful lot of the illegal parking that happens in the park and the parking on the grass.


Convenience for privatae vehicles should always be the very last consideration given. There should not be that much public space left over for people to leave something sitting idle for up 10 hours a day (as happens during the week)

I used to be though it at least twice a day for a good few decades and I've never seen cars park the full length except for some rare large public event like early bloom or some uncharacteristic heat wave.

These places that people are complaining about are also where people park at the weekend. So they are not all commuters as it's being implied.

beauf

Convenience for privatae vehicles should always be the very last consideration given. There should not be that much public space left over for people to leave something sitting idle for up 10 hours a day (as happens during the week)

Very simple to stop that, add they did before when they stopped people parking at the large parkgate entrance. They choose not to.

beauf

MojoMaker wrote: »

It's hard to follow, are you advocating for a status quo system where nothing changes and cars are allowed to resume using the park as a means to get to/from the Liffey quays and beyond, or are you advocating for a reduction in motorised traffic through the park so that it may be returned to its citizens as a public amenity, or some middle ground that's not really clear?

In my own confusion it seems like you are lobbying for motoring traffic at the expense of pedestrian and bike traffic but I don't want to put my foot in it.

You're confused because people on these forums usually argue only one side and ignore anything else.

People are only looking at it from their point of view cycling or commuting on their own in the park. That is it.

No family outing with young and old who need transport to get to the park. No carrying a buggy and kids bike. No picnic hamper and other gear. No stopping in the way home for a walk or jog or call into a relative in Mary's. No people with a family pass for the zoo who go through it to get to the zoo regularly or pop in for short visit on the way too and from somewhere. Or just to drive an elderly person on a scenic drive around the park and sit in the car an get an ice cream. Numerous family cycling events or scouting events where you need bikes for all ages with you. Lots of things like that.

All you get here is if someone can cycle or walk to it themselves then that's all that matters. No mention of consideration of others.

The opw has basically ignored the needs of cyclists for decades. The cycle path was left unfinished at parkgate Street for years, I'm not even sure it's finished now. Likewise the pedestrian paths are poor and the signage abysmal. I've never seen park rangers policing the paths or even speeding. It's really an embarrassment the state it's been left in for so long.

beauf

KevRossi wrote: »

Six options for a new layout for pedestrians and cyclists, laid out here in an article from early 2019.

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2019/02/27/six-options-on-table-for-making-phoenix-park-safer-for-cyclists-and-pedestrians

Some interesting options there. What do people think.

Mercian Pro

I think OPW don't really know what they want to do. That statement in the Dáil was in February of last year but by the end of the year they published this: "A core recommendation of the draft review is that OPW should commission a mobility study to consider inter-relaing issues to do with transport, traffic management, pedestrian and cycle mobility, mixed-mobility options etc. OPW is committed to advancing this recommendation in order to better understand the conflicting challenges and demands around traffic management and access in the Park."

I have no idea whether this study was ever commissioned but nothing was published since then. Now they seem to be proposing something like option 1 or 2 but with the existing bike and footpaths given over exclusively to pedestrians. No mention any more of any provision for "leisure and inexperienced cyclists". They seem to have been ignored in the interest of social distancing.

KevRossi

beauf wrote: »

Some interesting options there. What do people think.

I think Mon-Fri they should leave Chesterfield open to traffic, restrict parking to the Zoo and Papal Cross, make another parking if needed for commuters. It's an established commuter route/carpark and until such time as we get a decent public transport into the city it will have to stay.

Close all other roads to traffic, except access to St Mary's via Chapelizod (make it 2-way) and OSI (via Chesterfield Ave). Mark out cycle lanes on all roads, the rest is for pedestrians.

Sat-Sun: Close off middle of Chesterfield to through traffic, from Zoo to roundabout at Aras an Uachtarain. Close off all other roads to traffic, save for access to St Mary's / OSI. Close parking at Papal Cross. No parking on Chesterfield Ave.

Promote markets, activities etc. through dedicated event management team. A semi permanent market stall or exhibition hall roof could be erected at Papal Cross car park for this.

Promote cycling and walking. Get Dublin Bikes / Bleeperbike / MOBY bike share to place 500-1000 bikes in the park, for sole use in the park - this is easily managed by GPS.

KevRossi

If you built a car park on the land to the S of the new Zoo car park you would fit in all the cars parked along Chesterfield Ave from the Zoo to the Aras roundabout.

There are 300 cars in the Zoo car park. Space available is bigger than that, and Zoo car park is a bit inefficient.

1.5 Km at 6.6m per car length* = 250 cars parked on either side, or a total of 500.

* Yes, cars measure 4.4m or so, but they park very inefficiently along there.

beauf

So do people think the cycling infrastructure in the park has improved over the past decade in any meaningful way. That would suggest the opw will make these changes.

I guess the hire bikes is great for tourists.

Seth Brundle

KevRossi wrote: »

I think Mon-Fri they should leave Chesterfield open to traffic, restrict parking to the Zoo and Papal Cross, make another parking if needed for commuters. It's an established commuter route/carpark and until such time as we get a decent public transport into the city it will have to stay.

Public transport will never improve as long as we still hold onto the archaic mindset that we need a car within the city centre

beauf

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Public transport will never improve as long as we still hold onto the archaic mindset that we need a car within the city centre

I switched back to the car last year and didn't renew my annual ticket. I just couldn't make all my daily journeys quick enough on public transport. I keep switching back and forth every couple of years.

buffalo

beauf wrote: »

No family outing with young and old who need transport to get to the park. No carrying a buggy and kids bike. No picnic hamper and other gear. No stopping in the way home for a walk or jog or call into a relative in Mary's. No people with a family pass for the zoo who go through it to get to the zoo regularly or pop in for short visit on the way too and from somewhere. Or just to drive an elderly person on a scenic drive around the park and sit in the car an get an ice cream. Numerous family cycling events or scouting events where you need bikes for all ages with you. Lots of things like that.

I think you're missing the nuance of banning through traffic. People can still get to the Park, but it's not a highway for commuters and those going from Castleknock into town. So your plaintive cry for mercy for the young and old is unnecessary.

beauf

buffalo wrote: »

I think you're missing the nuance of banning through traffic. People can still get to the Park, but it's not a highway for commuters and those going from Castleknock into town. So your plaintive cry for mercy for the young and old is unnecessary.

The park takes something like a quarter of the traffic crossing the M50 bridge daily.

Only a tiny % of that traffic isncoming from Castleknock. There simply isn't enough population in it to create that level of traffic. Look at the traffic on the M3 and other routes. That's where the bulk of it is coming from.

People hear don't seem remember that last time this road was closed. They don't remember the traffic dispersion or how busy or not the park itself was otherwise. Which suggest the majority of people on the thread didnt use it.

Looking at the activity in parks during the lockdown is not representative of normal activity. Also the opw have a terrible record of delivering on cycling infrastructure in the park.

But let's forget about this. No reason not to trial it for six months. And the lockdown is the best time to get it accepted. That is true for all cycling changes across the city and country

magicbastarder

you would think that it'd be possible to model the typical start and end points of rush hour journeys through the park; google and a couple of other organisations would have that.

for example, one obvious question is what percentage of rush hour traffic going through the park terminates in the city centre (morning rush hour, obviously).

people coming into the city centre from the likes of clonee, dunboyne, etc., would have the train as an option (unless the train wasn't rammed at rush hour, as it has been until a couple of months ago).

Hurrache

beauf wrote: »

The park takes something like a quarter of the traffic crossing the M50 bridge daily.

Where did that figure come from? And if it's true, all the more reason to restrict it.

beauf

This thread is about the 10th one on the park and cycling. Came up in one of them.

magicbastarder

what if you're a junior barrister living on auburn avenue and you work in the four courts - what public transport options are there? let's say for the sake of argument that you can't cycle in your gown and wig.
i just don't understand the argument that allowing this person to drive the 6km or so to work is OK, but an occasional variant of the 37 should not be able/allowed to take the same route?

beauf

magicbastarder wrote: »

what if you're a junior barrister living on auburn avenue and you work in the four courts - what public transport options are there? let's say for the sake of argument that you can't cycle in your gown and wig.
i just don't understand the argument that allowing this person to drive the 6km or so to work is OK, but an occasional variant of the 37 should not be able/allowed to take the same route?

That's really a question for the opw.

There is another side to that you could get off the 37 and get a shuttle bus in the park then walk from the other end or get a Luas (though you are unlikely to be able to get on one. )

But it should all be the same ticket. Not this fragmented mess we have today.

The other side this is a perfect journey for a bike, ebike or scooter. But good luck with secure parking of that in the city centre. And the quays is awful at least out of town.

So really the park is only one part of that puzzle. How long are we waiting for some action on the quays for cyclists.

LeinsterDub

beauf wrote: »

This thread is about the 10th one on the park and cycling. Came up in one of them.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/m50-busiest-as-traffic-volume-up-6-on-national-roads-875223.html
There is no way 100000 cars use the Phoenix Park every day

beauf

Who cares it will soon be 0 end of problem.

Traffic
Notwithstanding recent traffic management measures, the Park continues to be used as a primary means
of access to the city from the west and the large volumes of traffic (10 million car journeys per year)
significantly diminish the character of the Park as a historic landscape and reduce the enjoyment of other
Park users. This issue arises from shortcomings in the strategic transportation network for Dublin and is
emphasised in the 2006 Phoenix Park Transportation Study in which three areas of concern were highlighted:

General traffic levels which are such as to cause extreme pressure in various areas of the Park.

The need for a comprehensive parking policy, which would restrict commuter parking, and provide for
visitor needs.

The need to increase public transport access to the Park.

Mercian Pro

Incredible numbers of cyclists and walkers/joggers in the Park this morning. Hard to believe even half of them live within 5k but great to see it so well used. A fair bit of confusion over the new "social distancing" measures. They are due to commence tomorrow but a lot of people have pre-empted them with most cyclists now on the road inside of thousands of traffic cones and quite a few walkers already on the bike paths. Then there was this pair:


I don't think I have seen so many bikes since the Ring of Kerry! Road bikes, TT bikes, fixies, Dublin bikes, kiddie bikes, striders and even one tandem. Pride of place went to one mature couple who insisted on riding on the footpath over near St Marys - old habits die hard.

LeinsterDub

beauf wrote: »

Who cares it will soon be 0 end of problem.

Except it won't. Are you willfully ignoring the proposal or just not able to understand it?
That quote suggests 27,000 cars use the Phoenix Park and doesn't clarify if they are visitor of passing through daily. A fair cry from your alleged 100k

LeinsterDub

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Incredible numbers of cyclists and walkers/joggers in the Park this morning. Hard to believe even half of them live within 5k but great to see it so well used. .

5k includes from J5 to J9 of the M50 from the coast to Clonsilla it's a massive catchment

Stark

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Incredible numbers of cyclists and walkers/joggers in the Park this morning. Hard to believe even half of them live within 5k but great to see it so well used. A fair bit of confusion over the new "social distancing" measures. They are due to commence tomorrow but a lot of people have pre-empted them with most cyclists now on the road inside of thousands of traffic cones and quite a few walkers already on the bike paths.
..

I don't think I have seen so many bikes since the Ring of Kerry! Road bikes, TT bikes, fixies, Dublin bikes, kiddie bikes, striders and even one tandem. Pride of place went to one mature couple who insisted on riding on the footpath over near St Marys - old habits die hard.

Back from my second spin there today. Legs were wrecked and ass was sore (I purposely went for the tracksuit pants and t-shirt instead of the lycra as I wanted to be part of showing how "normal" an activity it was) but just had to make the most of it before it returns to **** tomorrow. Really was incredible to see so much use being made of it by everyone. Everyone seemed in such a good mood as well. Like all the angry tension from the past few weeks against people exercising had completely lifted. Probably return when everyone's forced back to jostling with each other in their 1.5m wide lanes while the traffic enjoys the rest of the space.

I think I may even force myself out again in an hour or two (giving in to the lycra for my poor ass this time) to enjoy the last of it before it's gone.

Weepsie

beauf wrote: »

. And the quays is awful at least out of town.

So really the park is only one part of that puzzle. How long are we waiting for some action on the quays for cyclists.

Quays is partly awful because of people coming from and going to the park (not exclusively), but restrict as much private traffic as possibly going to city centre and cycling etc becomes a lot more pleasant.

bazermc

Stark wrote: »

Back from my second spin there today. Legs were wrecked and ass was sore (I purposely went for the tracksuit pants and t-shirt instead of the lycra as I wanted to be part of showing how "normal" an activity it was) but just had to make the most of it before it returns to **** tomorrow. Really was incredible to see so much use being made of it by everyone. Everyone seemed in such a good mood as well. Like all the angry tension from the past few weeks against people exercising had completely lifted. Probably return when everyone's forced back to jostling with each other in their 1.5m wide lanes while the traffic enjoys the rest of the space.

I think I may even force myself out again in an hour or two (giving in to the lycra for my poor ass this time) to enjoy the last of it before it's gone.

Stop the lights. Two spins in the one day. I haven’t been able to do that or other certain things more than once In a day since I can’t remember when.

Stark

bazermc wrote: »

Stop the lights. Two spins in the one day. I haven’t been able to do that or other certain things more than once In a day since I can’t remember when.

Exercise more than once a day has always been allowed here. We're not the UK.