Derogation to the Wildlife Act 2020-21

Grizzly 45

On that point of writing.Anyone here a good graphics designer or can work with a computer to produce a post card sized picture that can be downloaded in a file here.Somthing eye catchinng with a quick&snappy message.Like No shooting...No food! or the like...Anyone up to that?

Uinseann_16

A website like Fiverr would be a good place to look too, if anyone can come up with a good basic design to work from

Zxthinger

The pictures would have to be copyright free, so who has or where would you get such pictures.
Also would Powerpoint do for now.

J.R.

Zxthinger wrote: »

The pictures would have to be copyright free, so who has or where would you get such pictures.

All the pictures here are free images & royalty free stock

https://pixabay.com/images/search/woodpigeon/

berettaman

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

On that point of writing.Anyone here a good graphics designer or can work with a computer to produce a post card sized picture that can be downloaded in a file here.Somthing eye catchinng with a quick&snappy message.Like No shooting...No food! or the like...Anyone up to that?

I am using the free an post postcards. Just got a bunch for nothing in post office. I will use them to full effect.!!

Grizzly 45

Zxthinger wrote: »

The pictures would have to be copyright free, so who has or where would you get such pictures.
Also would Powerpoint do for now.

One of those pics,with somthing like " I can ruin a crop and a livelihood within hours thanks to the new derogation!" as a banner and "remove the derogation!" as a footer type layout. Or somthing along those lines.
On the back a short message like "Minister change the legislation!As we are an effective and free pest contol service to Irish agriculture at the peak growing season every year. It wasn't broke,why are you fixing this?" Sincerely.Space for your name and addy.

GRA made it all on an A4 sheet of paper,so you could print it off,fold it in half and mail it out.That way, clubs,organisations and others could print it enmasse for the mailing. The killer trick was to mail it all on one date. So Herr Seehofrers office was flooded by 4 mail men delivering a dozen plus sacks of these ...For a 3 days!.

Birdnuts

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Done,both local and senator.

I think however folks we might need to do a written word campaign too.Emails are easily ignored. What would you think of a downloadable printable "postcard" campaign addressed to Mrs Madigan in her dept? Snail mail has to be deliverd no matter what.

The German Rifle Assoc did it last Nov about th mag ban,and it surprised the staff of the Ministers office on the sudden influx of mail that they had to deal with.Also,as this is going to a govt dept.You dont even have to stamp it.Its Freepost!

Either that or we have to blizzard the NPWS and dept email addys with our complaint.

Hopefully now that farming organisation have been alerted, farmers will too. My email yesterday on the matter was on behalf of my old gun club and local tillage farmers(near Naas).

Got him!

you know your onions! good man!

Zxthinger

Ok, I fired this together so have a look and a think but I wont be back till Wednesday as I'm doing exams

Zxthinger

I see a few errors but I'm changing anything until I get some feed back.

Also is this really the best forum to be airing ones linen.. This type of foundation work needs to be conducted and formulated off line and then later, distributed.

I think I'll fade the edges a bit more and save the ink..

Grizzly 45

Zxthinger wrote: »

Ok, I fired this together so have a look and a think but I wont be back till Wednesday as I'm doing exams

Thats a good poster.Apart from "bureaucracy";). I'll see if I can find you the template of the GRA/FUN postcard and if you can then work the poster and message into an A4 sheet,we are rocking.


You'll have to change type size for this
1st bullet point.He and his very large family can eat a field of your crops within hours for their dinner!
Last 2 bullet point. Change "costs will rise" To "Your food costs will rise for Irish produce"
Last bullet point "Contact your local TD and/political repersentative on this matter to register your complaint,and ask why is the most effective free pest control being reduced on crops in the time of a grave national crisis this nation finds itself in?Let us as hunters do our bit,we are all in this together!"

Grizzly 45

It seems our balaclaved and baseball bat weilding friends the hunt sabs are on this already.Watch out for scumbags hanging around if you are out piegon hunting or crow hunting

J.R.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thats a good poster.Apart from "bureaucracy"

Yes - very eyecatching poster

Require = required

Birdnuts

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It seems our balaclaved and baseball bat weilding friends the hunt sabs are on this already.Watch out for scumbags hanging around if you are out piegon hunting or crow hunting

There should be a "derogation" for controlling that lot too!!

cookimonster

From NARGC:

J.R.

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/56827

J.R.

FIELDSPORTS NEWS

Ireland imposes pigeon season

https://www.fieldsportschannel.tv/ireland-imposes-pigeon-season/

marlin vs

Zxthinger wrote: »

I see a few errors but I'm changing anything until I get some feed back.

Also is this really the best forum to be airing ones linen.. This type of foundation work needs to be conducted and formulated off line and then later, distributed.

I think I'll fade the edges a bit more and save the ink..

Good man Zxthinger.

Grizzly 45

Anyone up for writing a petition for Change.org as well?

Cass

Petition up.

cookimonster

Thanks for this.

I've sent this onto my clubs WhatsApp group and as many people I know as well as reposting on Facebook.

Grizzly 45

Over 400 signitures in 4 hours!!! Keep it up lads and lasses! This is truly showing the feeling and sentiment on this issue here.Circulate this far and wide too,on twatter ,on FB or whatever social media you use.

Birdnuts

Had an interesting chat on this subject with a recently retired NPWS ranger this afternoon. It appears the parent department opened some type of "consultation" a couple of years ago on this subject arising out of concerns about tourist hunters shooting large bags over stubbles during the "breeding" season for Wood pigeon. I was not aware of this myself but he reckons this is the reason behind the recent derogation change. If that is the case then why didn't they look into restricting foreign gun licences at that time of year instead of punishing the local lad doing a bit of legitimate vermin control??

cookimonster

Is their data not a bit out dated now. Firstly many articles relate to the pigeon being able to breed serveral times in the year, with birds haveing up to 3 clutches a year. We had a couple of devastating winters that killed a lot of bird life no mention of that effecting the yearly derogation.

'Forgein shooters coming in', absolutely that's a fact. Are they taking as much as domestic lads?, doubtfull. From what I know forgein shooters have been coming to Ireland for decades, the dame as the lads coming for fishing. There are stories of Woodcock shooting that if true, will be the end of it for everyone, but in that case blame the locals orgainseing it not the forgein lad. Some of the bull being spread about them is unbelievable, a small minority of them are irresponsible, but so too are a minority of resident shooters. In my experience but here and abroad they are not the trigger happy, shoot all steroticpical types they can be made out as, blaming them on shooting everything from racing pigeons to black swans (recent FB comments). Besides its almost taboo to discuss tourist hunters in a positive light, but not an issue for us to openly discuss our paid trips to UK, mainland Europe or even Africa. It's time we in Ireland can into the real world.

Many farmers say that the local lads won't put in the time on crop protection, give it all verbal, turn up for the game seasons but won't put the slog in for corvid or pigeon control. A bit of bad press going about in other media sources, talking about wastefulness of big bags etc, etc, regardless of whos shooting, this is what it is 'pest control' and yes there are times when birds can't be consumed, but why aren't hunters crying when there's bags of corvids feeding the ditch line. Bit of hypocrisy there IMO.

I'm not doubting the validity of story, but remember in order for those lads to come over here they need to fill out visitors permits which require land permissions etc etc. Some body needs to be providing such for them. If farmers are happy to have lads shoot away then whats the issue.

Grizzly 45

NOW,we are getting closer to the truth...Yet strange that they consider the breeding season in this time,when it can breed all year round with a good food supply,but principally in August and September!!! So what the....!! is going on? It's hardly an endangerd species here either ,in fact none of the bird groups put it anywhere on a list except "common".

yubabill

Cass wrote: »

Petition up.

Up to 745 signatures now at 10.43pm.

Keep up the good work.

The pigeon man

I believe the changes occurred due to concerns expressed in page 49 of this linked document. Someone was concerned that people were shooting pigeons recreationally and coming in from abroad to do it.

https://www.npws.ie/news/eu-birds-directive-derogation-report

Although at the end of the report it recommeds that no changes are necessary to the pigeon shooting derogation.

Essentially they have put the health of pigeons ahead of the livelihoods of thousands of farmers around the country.

Birdnuts

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

NOW,we are getting closer to the truth...Yet strange that they consider the breeding season in this time,when it can breed all year round with a good food supply,but principally in August and September!!! So what the....!! is going on? It's hardly an endangerd species here either ,in fact none of the bird groups put it anywhere on a list except "common".

Very true - indeed data from the likes of the BTO and RSPB show the current population on these islands is multiples of what it was 50 years ago with some interesting trends like a steady colonisation of urban areas. Seems also to be one of the few farmland birds that have actually benefited from the spread of intensive farming in that time.

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Your problems freinds& neighbours is in BRUSSELS,yet again! The reason those months are used is simply this,the woodie is rearing the chicks in those months as they are still nestbound.So because the woodie is a compartively rare bird in Europe,the beuracratic think is the must be rare ALL over the EU.Same as crows are on the mainland.So there fore they must have prortection to raer their young.Again,MORE legislation that Ireland has been late to ratify from the EU Soviet,and was proably caught up on, during the lead ban talks. We are being brushed off here with Scientific advice BS,in th hope we will go away. so I'd suggest a mass mailing demanding under freedom of information act the following;
1] What scientific evidence is the dept basing this on?
2]Is this because of the EU NATURA directive ,making wood piegon a semi game bird based on EU legislation?
3] What factual scientific information recived by the dept has prompted this change of action?
5] What alternative methods to shooting does the dept suggest to prevent crop depredation?

Rare, on the continent ? That’s why the old man and his mates were shooting 150 bags of an afternoon a couple of times a week over cereal crops the size of a hanky in central Belgium all summer....

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

Rare, on the continent ? That’s why the old man and his mates were shooting 150 bags of an afternoon a couple of times a week over cereal crops the size of a hanky in central Belgium all summer....

Germany has them on a season from Nov to Feb.Due to their "rarity".Corvids,IE crows,jackdaws ,etc are protected these days .So you can see where they might be getting their ideas from.

cookimonster

Firstly what did I say a few posts back........

cookimonster wrote: »

This smacks of desk top studies with individuals not even crossing a farm gate

In the Executive Summary

A desktop study formed the basis of a review of the extent of the issues in Ireland

Reading pages 48 -52 ,

'4.2.3 Damage to crops, livestock, forests, fisheries and water'

Me thinks some one droped the ball or in a effort to deny certain parties shooting tried to slam the door in thier faces....

Some concern was expressed about breaches of some these derogations, specifically that:
· The derogation is being abused in relation to Woodpigeon which is subject to widespread recreational shooting for local and tourist hunters during the height of their breeding period.

My Good God what oaf dropped that clanger, pigeon shooting exploits the  synergy between farmer and hunter, each getting a positive out come. Can we as hunters not enjoy this. I for one won't hide behind any PC sh1t and not admit to enjoying hunting and all the unpleasantness that goes with it.


Then there are puzzling references, such as -

Crop damage is the degradation of crops through consumption, damage to roots, and can also be caused by trampling, where for example large flocks of waterbirds are implicated

.....but no reference of crops being flattened by flocking pigeons or individual stalks being bent over by the thousands by crows. These are the same people who have our geese seasons way out of wack. Most of the crops are harvested before the geese arrive and I certainly didn't see feck all so far on the report about the thousands of geese that land in around Dublin and destroy every green space with stinking goose sh1t.
Then bizarrely they seem to add in dates that frankly I haven't seen since I started to print off the derogations

The species on the General Declaration in Ireland with respect to livestock, forests, fisheries and water are listed for agricultural reasons. There are currently five species on the General Declaration for the reasons identified below. The allowable periods of control are restricted to those when the
likelihood of damage is greatest:
· Damage to livestock: Magpie, Hooded Crow. Control is between December and May, during the peak lambing and calving period.
· Damage cereal crops: Woodpigeon, Jackdaw, Rook. Control is between November and May, during the early growth phases of the crop.
· Damage livestock feedlots: Jackdaw, Rook. Control is between November and May, during the period when livestock are housed and/ or fed large amounts of supplementary meal

As discussed above, there is very little evidence globally that informs on the extent to which bird give rise to these issues. Based on the responses received on the questionnaire (See Section 3.3), there was no objection to these listed species. However, Magpie was implicated in causing damage
to livestock feedlots.

See highlighted text, ref damage to cereal crops, where did they get these dates from. The 2019/2020 derogation gives the dates 1 May 2019 to 30 April 2020 inclusive.

They then (page 52) say this :

Recommendation that the grain growers section of the IFA should be included as major stakeholder.

.......so the very farmers effected by pigeons at that very particular time of year are only being recommended to be major stake holder. What the f#ck who did they ask, was it the tomato growers in North County Dublin.


If you read through the document there are alarm bells sounding and a lot of ref to UK reports saying things like...

In the UK, raptors generate considerable concerns in relation to the predation of game stocks, livestock and pigeon racers (Kenward et al. 2001, Park et al. 2008). Corvid predation has also been reported on, and one study in the UK demonstrated that Red Foxes Vulpes vulpes and corvids were the most important nest predators, accounting for at least half of all predation events (Draycott et al. 2008), particularly of nests and chicks. Other studies have shown the impacts of corvids to be relatively low, especially in comparison with other predators (Park et al. 2008). Furthermore, in their review of 42 studies, the large majority from the UK, it was shown that there is little evidence that suggests there is a positive effect on resulting game stocks when corvids are controlled (Madden et al. 2015).

Just enough contradictory evidence or bumf to swing an argument either way...... but eh lets err on the side of caution and take the covids off as well just in case some one some where is doing something wrong!

cookimonster

Reduction in numbers ha, ha!
Has any body actually seen the migration of pigeon down towards the Pyrenees? It is an unbelievable sight the sky is full of thousands and thousands of birds heading down to Spain and that would be only one sighting.
Even though pigeon hunting is an addiction, known as the 'maladie de la bleue" or 'fièvre bleue' the blue fever or blue sickness, where men will disappear into the woods for day after day of a six week season ignoring work and family, the French are strict on how they conduct themselves with wildlife rangers on the lookout for any infractions to each regions hunting regulations and styles.

I belive the increase in numbers here and the decline in other areas is to do with farming practice. Along the east coast there is an abundance of grain farmers as well as the relatively new investment into rape seed crops. As seen in France the Western region not only features grape but also grain and maize (good for the boar as well) a good diet for the pigeon as they make thier way south. There is evidence that we also get a certain amount of pigeon migrating here to Ireland from the UK as they make thier way down the UK land mass towards warmer climates as the winter rolls in. The UK boasted the largest concentration of pigeons in Europe with their figures increasing annualy.

Mellor

Got him! wrote: »

'shooting with rifle or shotgun' Is this not a contradiction to the 1976 WILDLIFE ACT which states that it is an offense to shoot any protected bird with a rifle?

The derogation itself is a temporary regulation 1976 WILDLIFE ACT. Superseding the general on-going rules.

cookimonster wrote: »

It is obvious from reading through social media that many of us actually shooting crows and pigeons have no idea as to the law or regulations. It is why I have been downloading a hard copy of the derogation in the past and keeping it with me while out decoying etc etc , incase joe or josephine dogooder has a melt down.

That's a really good idea.
Many shooters simply do what they always done, and are unaware that the rules exist.

If you notice that feral pigeon is still on the derogation for the year but only in relation to threat to public heath, so decoying them or just flight shooting them over crops is not legal.

I'd disagree with that tbh.
Yes, the reason for their inclusion is public health. But the method is controlling population. The scenario by which the population is controlled is irrelevant.
There might not be a threat to health in the field, but culling ferals as they pass a field means the numbers are controlled at the destination.

Obvious needs to be a a built up area withing reasonable distance, but that should cover anywhere ferals exist en mass.

6. YES you can shoot over stubble as part of crop protection, this was proven through several court case between individuals and the NPWS and is backed by the NARGC.

Agreed. The stubble doesn't need protecting, but controlling the population there protects the next field.

7. As has been suggested elsewhere, there has been no change to legislation, there is no need for Dail approval for any changes etc.The annual derogation has to be signed every year by the Minister and prior to that there is a review or consultation process before its release.

Correct. The default state is they can't be shot.
They haven't taken away a permission, they've decided to not grant it this year. Subtle difference

ohh forgein hunting tourists are coming in'. For feck sake makes me sick when you get so called hunters stirring the pot.

But I bet those lads would jump at the chance to hunt wild boar in the Black Forrest. Typical NIMBY attitude that's still too common.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Germany has them on a season from Nov to Feb.Due to their "rarity".

They've had an open season in Ireland for years too, listed along aside pheasant and the like.
Anybody know when that was introduced?

J.R.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Over 400 signitures in 4 hours!!! .

924 signatures at 9 o'clock this morning

Grizzly 45

[QUOTE=Mellor;113471365

They've had an open season in Ireland for years too, listed along aside pheasant and the like.
Anybody know when that was introduced?[/QUOTE]

Around 1985/86 I remember reading it in the farmers journal up in Gurteen Ag college.

Grizzly 45

J.R. wrote: »

924 signatures at 9 o'clock this morning

Gone past 1100 at 12.35!!! Impressive for somthing not 24 hours old!:eek::D

Vizzy

Before the petition was done up I emailed all the local TD's and County Councillors.
At least one of the TD's is a farmer and I think 3 or 4 of the Councillors are also farmers ( at least one of them is a huge grain farmer and FG to boot)

Have received a reply from one TD so far and 4 of the Councillors rang me (including the grain farmer), none of them had a clue that, firstly, this had been signed into law, and more importantly, that it had any effect on farmers.

Hopefully the IFA are on the case big time because I fear that the NARGC, even thought they are probably the biggest "hunters association", will not have the necessary political clout to get this rescinded.

J.R.

It was mentioned in an article on Friday last in "The Farmer's Journal" so hopefully many tillage farmers are now aware and get onto the IFA.


https://www.farmersjournal.ie/gun-association-and-department-lock-horns-over-pigeon-shooting-546302

ldc

i understand that a decision was made this evening to agree to reverse the Pigeon Derogation for the 20/21 season and an official announcement should be made over the next few days. Hopefully correct so lets wait and see

Cass

I see lads are saying on social media that it is deferred and reversed. It seems, other than rumor, that the basis of this thinking is coming from Matt MCCarthys website message where he says that the lack of derogation, intended to start on May 31st, is a serious problem.

Either some are not understanding what he is saying or don't understand derogation itself. Derogation is an exemption. So derogation for pigeon shooting means you can shoot them outside of their season (and we've been saying for years for people to read the acts listed/stickied at the top of the hunting forum regarding season).

Some think his message means the derogation is deferred until next year. Its not, and his message does not say that. So if this is the source of the rumor there are two problems:

• Its doesn't say that its deferred
• The message is from Friday, meaning its in response to the news of the lack of derogation.

The worse thing that can happen now is for people to think this is sorted and stop signing the petition and stop pressuring their TD for answers.

270WIN

It was always going to happen once the farmers got on to it. The problem for us now is if they sneak in a ban on woodcock shooting or snipe..who do we have to back us up then?

berettaman

ldc wrote: »

i understand that a decision was made this evening to agree to reverse the Pigeon Derogation for the 20/21 season and an official announcement should be made over the next few days. Hopefully correct so lets wait and see

Nothing announced yet but Ireland is too small a country for anything to be kept quiet for long.:rolleyes:


We will soon know. I wont count chickens but fair play to hunters and farmers for getting on this in a big way.


Can't take your eye off the Government from now on , Greens among them or not.
Our sport is always going to be in the firing line, we have to stand up for it.

Grizzly 45

berettaman wrote: »

Can't take your eye off the Government from now on , Greens among them or not.
Our sport is always going to be in the firing line, we have to stand up for it.

THAT is the price we will always pay here.Eternal vigilance and suspicion of any elected rep or body that starts getting ideas about gun control or hunting. We paid too much and too dearly in 1972 and in 2008,and that was thru our own short sightedness and inter organisation fighting.NEVER AGAIN!

As for this "reversal".Until I see that on paper and reported in the news. We keep lobbying and writing and making this public.

Birdnuts

270WIN wrote: »

It was always going to happen once the farmers got on to it. The problem for us now is if they sneak in a ban on woodcock shooting or snipe..who do we have to back us up then?

Tourist shooting may be an issue in the Departments eyes here too - which is why we need the likes of the NARGC to put clear blue water between local GC lads and outfitters taking tourists to various locations and shooting large bags

Grizzly 45

Would it not be better getting a code of practise and standards in for the outfitters? This is a seriously underdeveloped tourist branch here,and if done right would bring in some proper money to rural areas? Kind of time that farmers realise that a good trophy stag shot on their land could be worth more than 3 bullocks at the mart at current prices.
Not saying it will be simple and easily done,but "we" all should be looking at this for a future.

Invincible

ldc wrote: »

i understand that a decision was made this evening to agree to reverse the Pigeon Derogation for the 20/21 season and an official announcement should be made over the next few days. Hopefully correct so lets wait and see

I heard the same, formal announcement tomorrow or Wednesday.

Mellor

Cass wrote: »

Either some are not understanding what he is saying or don't understand derogation itself. Derogation is an exemption. So derogation for pigeon shooting means you can shoot them outside of their season (and we've been saying for years for people to read the acts listed/stickied at the top of the hunting forum regarding season).

Doesn't help that you have incorrect terms thrown out by sites that should know better. https://www.fieldsportschannel.tv/ireland-imposes-pigeon-season/

But you are correct, many people simply don't know or understand the laws. But I've heard people in the past insist that pigeon's have no open season, based on the fact that they've always shot them all year round. Obviously on a forum like this, people are going to be better informed in general, I'm not referring to here.

270WIN wrote: »

It was always going to happen once the farmers got on to it. The problem for us now is if they sneak in a ban on woodcock shooting or snipe..who do we have to back us up then?

Woodcock and snipe are already protected under law, as are all birds, including piegons. Changing the open seasons or other laws is a different process to removing protection temporarily, thankfully.

But I would expect the open seasons will be reviewed at some point. Have they ever been revised significantly?

ldc wrote: »

i understand that a decision was made this evening to agree to reverse the Pigeon Derogation for the 20/21 season and an official announcement should be made over the next few days. Hopefully correct so lets wait and see

If the derog is reversed, or struck out, the window to shoot piegon would reduce further to winter months, same as pheasant.

Birdnuts wrote: »

which is why we need the likes of the NARGC to put clear blue water between local GC lads and outfitters taking tourists to various locations and shooting large bags

I think that's the exact same sort of in-fighting that Grizzly is referring to.

I don't get why it's an all or nothing approach. If there are concerns about numbers taken, then bag limits will be far better than bans.

6.5x55

Hopefully the rumors are correct and the derogation is going to be granted . However I think it would be a good idea to keep the pressure up on local TD's and by asking your local tillage farmers to raise it with their IFA rep and TD's as well. We might have managed to get a derogation for this year, but you can be sure if our Green party friends get into Government that you won't see one being granted next year .

Grizzly 45

6.5x55 wrote: »

Hopefully the rumors are correct and the derogation is going to be granted . However I think it would be a good idea to keep the pressure up on local TD's and by asking your local tillage farmers to raise it with their IFA rep and TD's as well. We might have managed to get a derogation for this year, but you can be sure if our Green party friends get into Government that you won't see one being granted next year .

"IF" By some chance the water melons get that post or anything Agricultural related. Too important a position to the national economy to let those lot near it.Then we come back again and do it all again.This time harder,no minister who values their position and a quiet life will stick their nose in this trap again.
Its not like this is a game bird species or deer or a minority aspect of shooting.This was a strike into the heartland of Fudd country too,like the UK last year.It affected alot of hunters and farmers and livelihoods.

Reading the comments in change .org it is mostly farmers and growers that are supporting us on this.
So it is obvious that we are appreciated by them.Remember to thank them somehow when we can get out on the fields again.

Vizzy

Reply from Ministers secretary to one of the County Councillors I wrote to, which was received this morning

"Dear ,

Thank you for your email. I have raised it with officials.

The Minister signs a derogation every year to allow for the shooting of certain birds. This year the National Parks and Wildlife Service did not include the wood pigeon in the derogation, however I am hopeful that there will be a resolution to this situation in the coming days. I will be able to update you once the details are finalised.

Kind regards,"