Company using up our leave days while receiving govt. scheme

Hooked

Hi all.

Small private company - approx 30 staff.

Company availing of the govt. covid scheme. Using it to pay all of our wages, backing it a little themselves in some cases.

So far they’ve closed for 3 days (one day / 3 different weeks), and we’ve been paid ‘as normal’ for a full week on each of those weeks. Covid 400 plus company top up...

The company are then taking these days out of our annual leave. Despite the govt. paying us the majority of our salaries... during that time?

Is this allowed? Legal?

scwazrh

What’s the issue with that? Why would it not be allowed ?

jimmycrackcorm

The company is allowed to dictate when your leave will be subject to ensuring that you can at least have two continuous weeks off at least.

But yes it is legal.

Hooked

scwazrh wrote: »

What’s the issue with that? Why would it not be allowed ?

Without sounding smart... If I knew that, I wouldn’t be asking the question.

The company has closed for 3 days, ‘holiday’ days I normally would have liked to have kept aside for other reasons.

The govt. are subsiding our wages... so the company is gaining 3, soon to be 4 days leave x 30 staff (120 days or 4 months salary), that they are not paying for themselves.

I’m curious as to whether it’s legal or not. If it’s perfectly fine, so be it. I just am unsure given the govt. scheme

Rayne Wooney

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The company is allowed to dictate when your leave will be subject to ensuring that you can at least have two continuous weeks off at least.

But yes it is legal.

They must give you a months notice of this which I’m guessing isn’t the case, retrospective annual leave.

Dodgy. There are free helplines on this sort of stuff OP you should contact if in doubt. Not sure if it’s worth rocking the boat over 3 days, but I don’t know the full picture.

Hooked

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The company is allowed to dictate when your leave will be subject to ensuring that you can at least have two continuous weeks off at least.

But yes it is legal.

Many Thanks for your reply.

Just one more question... we’ll soon be taking day 4 at their request, and have to keep 4 more days back at Christmas. To facilitate a shutdown. That’s 8 days out of our allotted 20.

They are now telling us, that we must take 5 more days on or before August, making it 13 total forced days leave in a year. Leaving us with only 7 of our own choosing.

Any of this not ‘allowed’ on their part?

Hooked

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

They must give you a months notice of this which I’m guessing isn’t the case, retrospective annual leave.

Dodgy. There are free helplines on this sort of stuff OP you should contact if in doubt. Not sure if it’s worth rocking the boat over 3 days, but I don’t know the full picture.

Cheers Rayne.

See my latest reply above...

It’s the ‘total’ heading toward 13 that’s annoying me...

scwazrh

Hooked wrote: »

so the company is gaining 3, soon to be 4 days leave x 30 staff (120 days or 4 months salary)

I assume this is your issue with it so?The scheme is there to help companies and benefit the employees by keeping their jobs.
If you’ve been paid for a day that you have not worked , then yes it is legal for the company to class this as an annual leave day .

Hooked

scwazrh wrote: »

I assume this is your issue with it so?The scheme is there to help companies and benefit the employees by keeping their jobs.
If you’ve been paid for a day that you have not worked , then yes it is legal for the company to class this as an annual leave day .

Thanks for the reply... as I’ve said... i wasn’t sure if they were colouring inside the lines. Considering we got a few days notice each time.., and day 4 is looming... coupled with 4 more held at Xmas, and another 5 being forced out of us before August... I am wondering where I stand legally. As I’ll only have 7 left to take.

Rayne Wooney

Hooked wrote: »

Cheers Rayne.

See my latest reply above...

It’s the ‘total’ heading toward 13 that’s annoying me...

That’s allowed yes, they can tell you to have X amount taken by certain date in the future.

Going backwards is taking the píss though.

Hooked

Hooked wrote: »

Many Thanks for your reply.

Just one more question... we’ll soon be taking day 4 at their request, and have to keep 4 more days back at Christmas. To facilitate a **** down. That’s 8 days out of our allotted 20.

They are now telling us, that we must take 5 more days on or before August, making it 13 total forced days leave in a year. Leaving us with only 7 of our own choosing.

Any of this not ‘allowed’ on their part?

You actually need to take a 2 week holiday at some stage AFAIK, so that additional 5 days before end of August is really 10 days. So you’ll have 2 days leave remaining along with the Christmas holiday reservation. As long as they let you have 2 weeks off in one go and give the required notice of when you will be off otherwise, it should all be perfectly legal. Crap when you’re not used to it working that way, but common enough for a lot of folks anyway for it to work that way.

scwazrh

Hooked wrote: »

Thanks for the reply... as I’ve said... i wasn’t sure if they were colouring inside the lines. Considering we got a few days notice each time.., and day 4 is looming... coupled with 4 more held at Xmas, and another 5 being forced out of us before August... I am wondering where I stand legally. As I’ll only have 7 left to take.

No harm in asking them not to pay you the annual leave as you want to let it build up.

tina1040

Employers are trying to remain in business. This has been and still is an uncertain time for everyone. You are lucky to have your job and be paid in full. So I think you should be supporting your employer with this and for this year take you annual leave as required in the best interest of the future of the business.

Hooked

JayZeus wrote: »

You actually need to take a 2 week holiday at some stage AFAIK, so that additional 5 days before end of August is really 10 days. So you’ll have 2 days leave remaining along with the Christmas holiday reservation. As long as they let you have 2 weeks off in one go and give the required notice of when you will be off otherwise, it should all be perfectly legal. Crap when you’re not used to it working that way, but common enough for a lot of folks anyway for it to work that way.

I guess it’s never been an issue, and I’ve always only has the Xmas ‘4’ forced on me... which I had no problem with - as it’s great to be closed on say the 23rd then not back till the new year.

It’s just the 4 singles, the 5 before August and the Xmas 4 (13) are only leaving me with 5 of my own choosing.

Thanks for the input

Hooked

JayZeus wrote: »

You actually need to take a 2 week holiday at some stage AFAIK, so that additional 5 days before end of August is really 10 days. So you’ll have 2 days leave remaining along with the Christmas holiday reservation. As long as they let you have 2 weeks off in one go and give the required notice of when you will be off otherwise, it should all be perfectly legal. Crap when you’re not used to it working that way, but common enough for a lot of folks anyway for it to work that way.

JayZeus wrote: »

You actually need to take a 2 week holiday at some stage AFAIK, so that additional 5 days before end of August is really 10 days. So you’ll have 2 days leave remaining along with the Christmas holiday reservation. As long as they let you have 2 weeks off in one go and give the required notice of when you will be off otherwise, it should all be perfectly legal. Crap when you’re not used to it working that way, but common enough for a lot of folks anyway for it to work that way.

I guess it’s never been an issue, and I’ve always only has the Xmas ‘4’ forced on me... which I had no problem with - as it’s great to be closed on say the 23rd then not back till the new year.

It’s just the 4 singles, the 5 before August and the Xmas 4 (13) are only leaving me with 7 of my own choosing.

Thanks for the input

Rayne Wooney

tina1040 wrote: »

Employers are trying to remain in business. This has been and still is an uncertain time for everyone. You are lucky to have your job and be paid in full. So I think you should be supporting your employer with this and for this year take you annual leave as required in the best interest of the future of the business.

The lucky to have a job line is always going to be complete nonsense unless you know the circumstances.

A small company could have millions built up in reserves, there are thousands of opportunistic companies in the country who we’ll be bankrolling for the foreseeable future.

If the company is genuinely struggling and I had no previous gripes with them, yes, I’d let the 3 days slide in these circumstances as they have been paid for one way or another, if the company is known for pulling this stuff and chancing their arm I’d pull them up on it.

It’s written in the law that you must be given a months notice for forced annual leave as far as I remember

radiotrickster

Hooked wrote: »

It’s just the 4 singles, the 5 before August and the Xmas 4 (13) are only leaving me with 5 of my own choosing.

Your employer can legally decide when you use all of your leave throughout the year, so it could be a case where they’ll dictate this for the entire year for you.

From Citizen’s Information:

“It is for your employer to decide when annual leave may be taken, but this is subject to a number of conditions. Your employer must take into account your family responsibilities, opportunities for rest and recreation that are available to you and to consult with you (or your union) at least one month before the leave is to be taken.”

If you need a specific day or want a specific time off for those five days, make sure to get agreement from your employer now as you never know what’s going to happen.

splinter65

Hooked wrote: »

I guess it’s never been an issue, and I’ve always only has the Xmas ‘4’ forced on me... which I had no problem with - as it’s great to be closed on say the 23rd then not back till the new year.

It’s just the 4 singles, the 5 before August and the Xmas 4 (13) are only leaving me with 7 of my own choosing.

Thanks for the input

It’s an illusion really that you ever had control over when you took your A/L (“my own choosing”).
You are entitled to your A/L but it is in your employers control when you take it. Once you accept that then you can move forward.
You can off course, if you have a very specific reason to want particular dates, ask your employer if he will allow you to take the dates he has specified as unpaid leave and then allow you to have holidays when you want them, but of course he doesn’t have to agree to this and he’d be leaving himself wide open to all the other employees demanding the same, so the answer would be no.

Hooked

tina1040 wrote: »

Employers are trying to remain in business. This has been and still is an uncertain time for everyone. You are lucky to have your job and be paid in full. So I think you should be supporting your employer with this and for this year take you annual leave as required in the best interest of the future of the business.

Not everyone lives to work... I don’t count myself ‘lucky’ to have this job... sure, I’m grateful that I’ve no real worries but I’m also a very hard worker, and see it as a 2 way street.

And trust me... I’m very much aware that I’m only getting paid in full because our govt. are subsidising it. It’d be a very different story if that scheme wasn’t introduced.

If I’m grafting day in day out, contributing hugely to the companies image and turnover, and making zero mistakes.., then I’m entitled to check if I’m getting a similar level of ‘respect’ back from those I work for.

Hooked

Cheers everyone

It seems for the last number of years that my employer has been very good to me, always granting leave when I wanted it.

And I’m only now feeling ‘forced’ to take certain days... when in fact - this could’ve been the case all along.

Guess I’ll have to make the most of it...

tina1040

Hooked wrote: »

Not everyone lives to work... I don’t count myself ‘lucky’ to have this job... sure, I’m grateful that I’ve no real worries but I’m also a very hard worker, and see it as a 2 way street.

And trust me... I’m very much aware that I’m only getting paid in full because our govt. are subsidising it. It’d be a very different story if that scheme wasn’t introduced.

If I’m grafting day in day out, contributing hugely to the companies image and turnover, and making zero mistakes.., then I’m entitled to check if I’m getting a similar level of ‘respect’ back from those I work for.

I absolutely agree that your employer should respect an appreciate your hard work and commitment but things like legal entitlements to notice for annual leave have to be dispensed with to a certain extent for this year.

Phil and Holly were speaking to an 8 year old girl this morning. She lives with her little sisters and her single mother who has covid 19. She is bathing her sisters, cooking pasta for dinner and helping her mother with washing as the mother has breathing difficulties. I was thankful to be healthy and not suffering too much financially. I told my teenagers about her to give them a reality check which is somrthing we all need from time to time at the moment.

splinter65

Hooked wrote: »

Cheers everyone

It seems for the last number of years that my employer has been very good to me, always granting leave when I wanted it.

And I’m only now feeling ‘forced’ to take certain days... when in fact - this could’ve been the case all along.

Guess I’ll have to make the most of it...

As you say it’s a two way street. They appreciate your input so they are flexible with AL, you may be on an incremental wage scale, theres probably a sick pay scheme, compassionate leave, flexibility with parental leave etc ( none of these things are mandated by law) so this time they need you to take a hit with your annual leave options.
Not too many of us will want to fly off anywhere or even travel very far in Ireland anyway so they’re probably thinking it’s not going to be that awkward at all.

kennethsmyth

tina1040 wrote: »

I absolutely agree that your employer should respect an appreciate your hard work and commitment but things like legal entitlements to notice for annual leave have to be dispensed with to a certain extent for this year.

Phil and Holly were speaking to an 8 year old girl this morning. She lives with her little sisters and her single mother who has covid 19. She is bathing her sisters, cooking pasta for dinner and helping her mother with washing as the mother has breathing difficulties. I was thankful to be healthy and not suffering too much financially. I told my teenagers about her to give them a reality check which is somrthing we all need from time to time at the moment.

Legal entitlements should never be dispensed with. Never unless of your own choosing. They are there to protect the vulnerable.

LegacyUser

Many companies of different sizes availing of the scheme and in terms of pay, an annual leave day is the same as a working day.

Just to give some context from a business rather than individual perspective; holiday balances could become an issue for businesses that aren't trying to tackle them, particularly smaller businesses. Hardly anyone wants to take holidays at the moment with some working from home and potentially benefiting from more flexible hours than they are used too and having no real option either home or abroad for traditional holidays. The idea that everyone should be entitled to keep their holiday balances to use when all the options reopen just isn't practical. Imagine the holidays people would be accruing over the crisis and then the majority of an office/etc looking to all use the majority of their allowance over a short timeframe or carrying forward into future periods, all while the business is presumably trying to recover its loss of business in a potentially shaky economy.

My partner works for a smaller business than the size you mention and they agreed to take a holiday day one week with a few days notice. I work for a small site of a large business where we are planning a block of holidays and individuals have been advised to provide their line manager an indication on when we plan to use up our remaining allowance. I have worked on two manufacturing sites for a medium size firm where 15 days were fixed blocks during the year at both.

I realise that a lot of people are used to flexibility in choosing their leave dates but there's been some sound advice given with regards to flexibility.

Strumms

tina1040 wrote: »

I absolutely agree that your employer should respect an appreciate your hard work and commitment but things like legal entitlements to notice for annual leave have to be dispensed with to a certain extent for this year.

Legal entitlement has to be dispensed with ? According to who ? Exactly ? The law and entitlements set out in the Organization Of Working Time Act 1997 haven’t been and are not going to be dispensed with. Under the circumstances it’s necessary for both employers and indeed employees to show some flexibility as to how it’s both administered and utilized but getting in to the realms of disregarding the laws of this country to facilitate the money men isn’t going to happen.

Mrs OBumble

The employee is still getting all the required leave. It's just at a different time than they would have preferred.

VanHalen

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The employee is still getting all the required leave. It's just at a different time than they would have preferred.

This precisely. Imagine what would happen of in 6 months time we were told "everything's back to normal" and all of a sudden everyone takes their annual leave at the same time leaving businesses high and dry?