Are you prepared for UBI?

completedit

Life will be better overall. We'll grow up through maturity and character as opposed to basing growing up on getting on the corporate ladder.

Time to embrace it. AI is coming for all jobs sooner or later. We only have a short time on the planet, can't be wasting 40 hours a week in an office or in a shop or whatever else.

LeYouth

Eh?

Flavour Diaper

I am pro UBI. But watch carefully that they don't try to make it conditional on being the 'right' kind of citizen.

Your Face

So does everyone get the same?
Probably not.

Odhinn

completedit wrote: »

Life will be better overall. We'll grow up through maturity and character as opposed to basing growing up on getting on the corporate ladder.

Time to embrace it. AI is coming for all jobs sooner or later. We only have a short time on the planet, can't be wasting 40 hours a week in an office or in a shop or whatever else.

Universal Basic Income is what the above is on about.

completedit

Should we land grab all the property and put them in state control so that everyone starts off from the same level?

Lyan

completedit wrote: »

Life will be better overall. We'll grow up through maturity and character as opposed to basing growing up on getting on the corporate ladder.

Time to embrace it. AI is coming for all jobs sooner or later. We only have a short time on the planet, can't be wasting 40 hours a week in an office or in a shop or whatever else.

*Dons Che Guevara t-shirt and stubbly mustache

Hello fellow 16 year old

biko

It's USB, duh...

fryup

Odhinn wrote: »

Universal Basic Income is what the above is on about.

isn't that what half the country is getting at the moment with the covid payment

Thelonious Monk

I think it's a good idea, there must be another way

Ubbquittious

UBI and AI can fcuk right off

Badly Drunk Boy

Sit, UBI, sit...good dog!

mickdw

I think it would solve alot of problems.
Instantly, the welfare trap is gone - you can work one hour per week and still be better off than not workkng. That is better than what we have now.
It needs to be hard hitting though.
Everyone gets same amount. You cant have extra benefits for some where housing is paid etc.
I dont see it as an extra cost to government. Anyone working will have to pay pretty severe taxes to allow government to claw back the equivalent of the ubi from even low paid workers.
Should be lots of benefits in admin for government as well as fraud detection benefits etc.

Potential-Monke

I don't understand UBI fully, but I genuinely can't see how giving Irish people more money when not working will solve the issues. We already have a fairly hefty part of society that refuse to work because we make it financially viable for them to not work. Add another €150 or whatever on top of the dole, and this will apparently incentivise people to want to work? I just can't see it.

Would introducing it remove the social housing situation? Like, would we still give free houses to people? And if so, do we take a proper chunk of the UBI to pay for it, or will they continue to get them for free/pittance? What about all the other payments we currently give for no reason? Would they all be scrapped or kept on top of UBI?

I do want to know, as I still can't see how giving people more free money will make them want to work.

RandomViewer

They've been out about this for decades, I don't think it will happen anytime soon, the first time I heard about it was some priest in the early 90's, idea was that everyone got a set amount, it was then up to you whether yo earned more or not, country was truly broke at the time and it seemed like one of those silly notions , what we have at the moment needs tweaking but I think this is just someone jumping on the Covid payment bandwagon

RandomViewer

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I don't understand UBI fully, but I genuinely can't see how giving Irish people more money when not working will solve the issues. We already have a fairly hefty part of society that refuse to work because we make it financially viable for them to not work. Add another €150 or whatever on top of the dole, and this will apparently incentivise people to want to work? I just can't see it.

Would introducing it remove the social housing situation? Like, would we still give free houses to people? And if so, do we take a proper chunk of the UBI to pay for it, or will they continue to get them for free/pittance? What about all the other payments we currently give for no reason? Would they all be scrapped or kept on top of UBI?

I do want to know, as I still can't see how giving people more free money will make them want to work.

I think we would be building a lot of fairly basic social housing which could easily be rented at the new rate. It's not something that's going to happen,

completedit

RandomViewer wrote: »

They've been out about this for decades, I don't think it will happen anytime soon, the first time I heard about it was some priest in the early 90's, idea was that everyone got a set amount, it was then up to you whether yo earned more or not, country was truly broke at the time and it seemed like one of those silly notions , what we have at the moment needs tweaking but I think this is just someone jumping on the Covid payment bandwagon

At the end of the day, if we can work a system out that works better for society and the people who make that up, then we have to pursue it. There is no inherent reason why our life is comprised of 40-60 hour work weeks to 'pay for things we don't really need'(to use that apt but tiresome quote)

Now, my attitude is that there is something inherent in humanity that wants to work. I think we would feel odd if we didn't. It would just be better if our jobs could have more meaning and be less caught up in their own importance.

RandomViewer

Flavour Diaper wrote: »

I am pro UBI. But watch carefully that they don't try to make it conditional on being the 'right' kind of citizen.

Social rating will be here long before UBI, wouldn't be surprised if we see a version of that in the next government, the Children of the Quorn will call it an eco-rating or some such moniker

Potential-Monke

Oh I agree about the working 40+ hours per week, I think it should be far less than that, work life balance me bollix, more like work and just the minimum amount of life to make it legal balance. But I can't see how spending more money will save money in the long run. I had a quick Google, but shur Google wouldn't cover the nuances of the fickle Irish. But the main con to it seems to be that it will disincentivise work... So less people working (paying taxes) while we pay out more in free money to everyone just seems counter productive.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Flavour Diaper wrote: »

I am pro UBI. But watch carefully that they don't try to make it conditional on being the 'right' kind of citizen.

One thing is for sure... You won't be seen as the right kind of citizen. You're a wrong un', the owner of a diseased mind.

Flavour Diaper

Flavour Diaper.

Geuze

completedit wrote: »

AI is coming for all jobs sooner or later.

Is it?

There has never been as much automation in the world as there is now.

Yet employment is at high levels (until COVID-19).

For all this talk about AI and automation, employment simply keeps rising.

Sure, some boring jobs in factories are automated.

That's great, workers can move on to more interesting tasks.

Yes, there are costs for these workers, re-training, etc.

Remember, if productivity rises, real wages should rise.

So I say, bring it on, bring forth so much automation that labour productivity rises fast, and all the workers are rewarded with higher real wages.

The car plants of the world are full of robots, and well-paid staff.

Geuze

completedit wrote: »

AI is coming for all jobs sooner or later.

Please be specific, as there are many labour shortages in 2019, pre-COVID.

Employment rates are reaching record highs.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Employment_statistics#Highest_employment_rate_ever_recorded_since_2005

RandomViewer

completedit wrote: »

At the end of the day, if we can work a system out that works better for society and the people who make that up, then we have to pursue it. There is no inherent reason why our life is comprised of 40-60 hour work weeks to 'pay for things we don't really need'(to use that apt but tiresome quote)

Now, my attitude is that there is something inherent in humanity that wants to work. I think we would feel odd if we didn't. It would just be better if our jobs could have more meaning and be less caught up in their own importance.

Since the start of the lockdown I've been working 2 weeks on , 2 weeks off, I've got a lot of stuff done around the house but boredom sets in the second week, I have little interest in money ,I've always got by on whatever so it's not a money thing just a n occupy the mind thing, I make stuff might be different to people who shuffle paper or look at a screen all day,

RandomViewer

Geuze wrote: »

Is it?

There has never been as much automation in the world as there is now.

Yet employment is at high levels (until COVID-19).

For all this talk about AI and automation, employment simply keeps rising.

Sure, some boring jobs in factories are automated.

That's great, workers can move on to more interesting tasks.

Yes, there are costs for these workers, re-training, etc.

Remember, if productivity rises, real wages should rise.

So I say, bring it on, bring forth so much automation that labour productivity rises fast, and all the workers are rewarded with higher real wages.

The car plants of the world are full of robots, and well-paid staff.

Truth is someone has to watch the robots, they run to exacting standards, if something not exacting enters their sphere they run into problems.

completedit

Geuze wrote: »

Is it?

There has never been as much automation in the world as there is now.

Yet employment is at high levels (until COVID-19).

For all this talk about AI and automation, employment simply keeps rising.

Sure, some boring jobs in factories are automated.

That's great, workers can move on to more interesting tasks.

Yes, there are costs for these workers, re-training, etc.

Remember, if productivity rises, real wages should rise.

So I say, bring it on, bring forth so much automation that labour productivity rises fast, and all the workers are rewarded with higher real wages.

The car plants of the world are full of robots, and well-paid staff.

Except that productivity has skyrocketed and wages have fallen in the OECD.

Flavour Diaper

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

One thing is for sure... You won't be seen as the right kind of citizen. You're a wrong un', the owner of a diseased mind.

Btw, I got that little lockbox I was talking about Paddy.

RandomViewer

I don't think we'll see UBI in my lifetime (I'm 32, by the way!) but I can see the upsides for society as a whole. A flat-rate, given to everyone without rules or regulations, means that people who want to work, but would make less than the dole by working part time, get to go to work.

You'd likely end up with a lot more part time workers, and the major companies that are turning enormous profits year on year, but paying minimum wage to employees, would have to start to offer something that's actually attractive to potential employees.


The upside for the company is you'd get employees with a legitimate interest in working for you, and the upside for the employee is he isn't simply working a job to avoid being poor forever.


Like many arguments, though, I also can't understand how it would make sense for UBI to exist, from a national level of finance.


People argue that most people would be net contributors to the system, but I'm not sure that's true. You'd definitely save lots of money on administration and staffing costs in offices that deal with social welfare style payments. I think you'd then have to charge severe taxes on any incomes to cover the cost of giving everyone €200 without asking any questions.


There'd have to be a cut-off that didn't hurt poorer people (for example, like the real done; once you have X amount of money saved you can't get it). But in general I do think it's a good idea and should be supported, or at least have a proper government review of the suggestion and see is it workable.


I believe a few countries have already trialled it? How are they getting on?!

RandomViewer wrote: »

I have little interest in money ,I've always got by on whatever so it's not a money thing just a n occupy the mind thing

Yeah, but the only people that have 'little interest in money' are the ones who aren't stuck for it. Most people go to work simply to put food on the table and pay the mortgage.

lalababa

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I don't understand UBI fully, but I genuinely can't see how giving Irish people more money when not working will solve the issues. We already have a fairly hefty part of society that refuse to work because we make it financially viable for them to not work. Add another €150 or whatever on top of the dole, and this will apparently incentivise people to want to work? I just can't see it.

Would introducing it remove the social housing situation? Like, would we still give free houses to people? And if so, do we take a proper chunk of the UBI to pay for it, or will they continue to get them for free/pittance? What about all the other payments we currently give for no reason? Would they all be scrapped or kept on top of UBI?

I do want to know, as I still can't see how giving people more free money will make them want to work.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. UBI is basically a payment to everyone. There would be no more UA. Don't know bout UB...better gone aswell. And UBI would probably be a tad less than UA. ie the dole. So the only payment to everyone over 18 would be around 150 euros. The people declaring work tax would pay for it but get it straight back. A brilliant idea, but it would be fudged by our tds ...they would say 150 is not enough, and would still be paying out lumps in RA and family income support.

RandomViewer

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think we'll see UBI in my lifetime (I'm 32, by the way!) but I can see the upsides for society as a whole. A flat-rate, given to everyone without rules or regulations, means that people who want to work, but would make less than the dole by working part time, get to go to work.

You'd likely end up with a lot more part time workers, and the major companies that are turning enormous profits year on year, but paying minimum wage to employees, would have to start to offer something that's actually attractive to potential employees.


The upside for the company is you'd get employees with a legitimate interest in working for you, and the upside for the employee is he isn't simply working a job to avoid being poor forever.


Like many arguments, though, I also can't understand how it would make sense for UBI to exist, from a national level of finance.


People argue that most people would be net contributors to the system, but I'm not sure that's true. You'd definitely save lots of money on administration and staffing costs in offices that deal with social welfare style payments. I think you'd then have to charge severe taxes on any incomes to cover the cost of giving everyone €200 without asking any questions.


There'd have to be a cut-off that didn't hurt poorer people (for example, like the real done; once you have X amount of money saved you can't get it). But in general I do think it's a good idea and should be supported, or at least have a proper government review of the suggestion and see is it workable.


I believe a few countries have already trialled it? How are they getting on?!







Yeah, but the only people that have 'little interest in money' are the ones who aren't stuck for it. Most people go to work simply to put food on the table and pay the mortgage.

Not wealthy by any version of the word, just don't get worried about it anymore, bottomed out in 2008 and got a bit stressed about it.things levelled out ,said I'd never let the same happen again. Owe about 3k on a credit card, no other debts , don't have a mortgage, have no savings,

J. Marston

What is UBI exactly? The dole?

KungPao

Get a job ya no good hippie.

kowloon

RandomViewer wrote: »

Social rating will be here long before UBI, wouldn't be surprised if we see a version of that in the next government, the Children of the Quorn will call it an eco-rating or some such moniker

I've never heard that term before.

ILoveYourVibes

No get away from my urinary tract!

Guy:Incognito

fryup wrote: »

isn't that what half the country is getting at the moment with the covid payment

Yes, and I cant wait to get off it and back to work.

Pkiernan

J. Marston wrote: »

What is UBI exactly? The dole?

UBI

Unlimited layaBouts Income

Yurt2

The Frank Grimes of this world would be hostile to such a thing. Working a second job in the foundry at night and living in a single room above a bowling alley and below another bowling alley. Giving themselves ulcers thinking about the imaginary army of layabouts undermining the fabric of society.

Pkiernan

Yurt! wrote: »

The Frank Grimes of this world would be hostile to such a thing. Working a second job in the foundry at night and living in a single room above a bowling alley and below another bowling alley. Giving themselves ulcers thinking about the imaginary army of layabouts undermining the fabric of society.

What are you doing up in the morning?

Yurt2

Pkiernan wrote: »

What are you doing up in the morning?

Morning Grimey.



It's not morning where I am btw. And gainfully employed, thanks for your concern.

ILoveYourVibes

Pkiernan wrote: »

UBI

Unlimited layaBouts Income

oh id like that!

Pkiernan

Yurt! wrote: »

Morning Grimey.



It's not morning where I am btw. And gainfully employed, thanks for your concern.

No need for personal attacks just because I don't agree with your opinion.

Yurt2

Pkiernan wrote: »

No need for personal attacks just because I don't agree with your opinion.

Because your response to my initial post wasn't a personal attack right? Give over.

biko

Clickbait title. "Prepared"? It's not coming.

Besides, we already have a version of UBI, but we call it "dole".

ILoveYourVibes

I want 70,000 a year please.

JohnnyFlash

Be great to get a few quid back in the form of UBI. I’d save it up and spend it on new golf clubs or maybe use it for the Cheltenham war chest.

storker

completedit wrote: »

Life will be better overall. We'll grow up through maturity and character as opposed to basing growing up on getting on the corporate ladder.

Time to embrace it. AI is coming for all jobs sooner or later. We only have a short time on the planet, can't be wasting 40 hours a week in an office or in a shop or whatever else.

I think UBI is a good idea, but I'd be careful of assuming that its arrival is even close to imminent, and I don't see what it would change about the corporate ladder. It's meant as more efficient safety net that encourages rather than discourages participation in the workplace by removing the welfare trap aspect. It's not intended to be a replacement for what someone would earn if they were pursing a career.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I don't understand UBI fully, but I genuinely can't see how giving Irish people more money when not working will solve the issues. We already have a fairly hefty part of society that refuse to work because we make it financially viable for them to not work.

It's more a case of UBI making it viable to accept work, even a small amount, because someone would always be better off by doing so.

biko wrote: »

Clickbait title. "Prepared"? It's not coming.

Besides, we already have a version of UBI, but we call it "dole".

They're two very different things so no, we don't already have a version of it.



.

storker

mickdw wrote: »

Everyone gets same amount. You cant have extra benefits for some where housing is paid etc.
I dont see it as an extra cost to government. Anyone working will have to pay pretty severe taxes to allow government to claw back the equivalent of the ubi from even low paid workers.
Should be lots of benefits in admin for government as well as fraud detection benefits etc.

Asl long as it's done properly and everyone, working and unemployed, is paid directly and not by means of tax credits, etc. If UBI needs the same, or an extra level of bureaucracy to administer it, it's already half failed.


.

u140acro3xs7dm

I can't see it working. The lazy in society will figure out a way to not work while keeping their seat on the gravy train. We will see a huge spike in the amount of people unable to work and going on "the sick', their partners will become registered carers. All the while, the state will have to house them all.

Capra

I think it's an absolutely nonsense concept that hasn't been thought through by many of its proponents.

Some people will receive €300 a week and live very frugally and comfortably. Other people, through poor life choices, will waste the entire €300 and still end up in poverty. I just think the exact same people who waste the majority of their wages now will waste it when they get €300 they haven't even had to earn. It will also make us highly dependent on the state who will obviously use it as leverage over the population. Do people really think the state will just give free money away and expect nothing in return?

I think it's total insanity.

corsav6

Considering we're the most intelligent species on the planet it's a major Fu*k up on our part that we have to slave away for 40/60 hours per week just to survive, all while destroying the planet.
If any other species had this intelligence they'd have made a far better job of things.

storker

Capra wrote: »

I think it's an absolutely nonsense concept that hasn't been thought through by many of its proponents.

I think it's total insanity.

There may be problems with it, but it's far from being "nonsense" or "insanity". There would be no more reaqson for someone in work to jack in their job to get their UBI because, as with going in the dole, UBI by itself would be a major income-drop and also, anyone in employment would already be getting UBI anyway. This is the point.

Unemployed person income: UBI+nothing

Unemployed person doing a few hours a week: UBI + some extra pin money

Part time employed person's income: UBI+part-time salary

Full time employ-persons income: UBI+full-time salary

Advantage to the individual: You're always better off working, and if employed, there's no need do apply for assistance if suddenly unemployed and then wait for ages until it comes through, as its already being received.

Advantage to the state: Much much cheaper to administer. More people in at least some work than 100% out of it.

The biggest question around it, and which doesn't appear to have been asked in this thread yet, is how it's financed.


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