Public service pay cut?

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

The question was asked I gave an example of one cohort who didnt get put on PUP and got their full wage while doing god knows what.

So just to be clear, you have absolutely no idea what library staff are doing, but you're happy to spread scurrilous, false rumours without any foundation? Would you go talk to your local librarian and educate yourself for a start?

fliball123 wrote: »

Will your pension in the future be paid for by the current government spend at the time you start drawing down your pension ??? Yes is will, are you making a contribution to this now yes you are. So its a contribution to a defined benefit. There is a pot the only problem is the pot has been cleared out sure how can anything be saved when we are borrowing 17 Billion.

If we were to follow your model a lot of people are paying a lot of tax into your theoretical pot and getting zero services for it. At least you have your pension when you finish working

There is no contribution. The money saved by deducting from my salary doesn't go anywhere. It isn't saved.

We used to have a pension reserve fund but unfortunately that had to be spent in bailing out our private sector banks who very nearly pushed our whole economy down the toilet.

EddieN75 wrote: »

Do you put in the exact same amount that you get out?

No connection between deductions and future pension.

fliball123 wrote: »

Who told them/ brought in law to make sure they couldnt even leave the house for long periods of time, Who decided to pay them 350 a week??

Ladies and gentlemen I give to you Nphet and the government. What sector do they work in again?

No-one was stopped from leaving their house at any time. Is there any chance you could keep even a slight grip on reality on your posts?

fliball123 wrote: »

Well hows about this we even the playing field let the public sector cover the full costs of their own pension scheme and then you should be entitled to the OAP as well as not paying the pension levy. I bet this would not be accepted as a lot of public servants would lose a lot of value from their pensions.

Where did you get the idea the public sector staff should be paying for their future pensions? It's just one aspect of public expenditure. Do parents have to pay for the costs of teachers? Do sick people have to pay for the costs of doctors and nurses?

It's just silly.

EddieN75 wrote: »

The nurses were on the front line.
The pen pushers were at home with one eye on good morning Britain getting full whack pay

Don't confuse the two. Don't try ride their coat tails, I know enough people in the public sector to know exactly what has been going on the past year

Who do you think pays the front-line nurses their salary? Who do you think orders the medical supplies that the front-line nurses will be using? Who do you think builds and manages the ICT systems that the front-line nurses will be using?

Take your divide-and-conquer strategy somewhere else as it's not working here.

EddieN75

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So just to be clear, you have absolutely no idea what library staff are doing, but you're happy to spread scurrilous, false rumours without any foundation? Would you go talk to your local librarian and educate yourself for a start?


There is no contribution. The money saved by deducting from my salary doesn't go anywhere. It isn't saved.

We used to have a pension reserve fund but unfortunately that had to be spent in bailing out our private sector banks who very nearly pushed our whole economy down the toilet.


No connection between deductions and future pension.


No-one was stopped from leaving their house at any time. Is there any chance you could keep even a slight grip on reality on your posts?

Where did you get the idea the public sector staff should be paying for their future pensions? It's just one aspect of public expenditure. Do parents have to pay for the costs of teachers? Do sick people have to pay for the costs of doctors and nurses?

It's just silly.



Who do you think pays the front-line nurses their salary? Who do you think orders the medical supplies that the front-line nurses will be using? Who do you think builds and manages the ICT systems that the front-line nurses will be using?

Take your divide-and-conquer strategy somewhere else as it's not working here.

I didn't bring up the front line. One of the other posters tried to coat tail every public sector worker to the front line medical staff. That was seen for what it was fairly quickly.

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So just to be clear, you have absolutely no idea what library staff are doing, but you're happy to spread scurrilous, false rumours without any foundation? Would you go talk to your local librarian and educate yourself for a start?


There is no contribution. The money saved by deducting from my salary doesn't go anywhere. It isn't saved.

We used to have a pension reserve fund but unfortunately that had to be spent in bailing out our private sector banks who very nearly pushed our whole economy down the toilet.


No connection between deductions and future pension.


No-one was stopped from leaving their house at any time. Is there any chance you could keep even a slight grip on reality on your posts?

Where did you get the idea the public sector staff should be paying for their future pensions? It's just one aspect of public expenditure. Do parents have to pay for the costs of teachers? Do sick people have to pay for the costs of doctors and nurses?

It's just silly.



Who do you think pays the front-line nurses their salary? Who do you think orders the medical supplies that the front-line nurses will be using? Who do you think builds and manages the ICT systems that the front-line nurses will be using?

Take your divide-and-conquer strategy somewhere else as it's not working here.

The money taken from your salary is used for our current expenditure, part of that is existing Public servant retirees. So your paying a contribution to a defined benefit that is all no more no less. So now you think PS employees shouldnt fund their own pension. Who gets the pension ??You do so why should you not be asked to make a contribution towards it?

Parents if they are working pay tax which goes towards paying teachers. Sick people who are working pay taxes on top of GP costs, on top of medical costs on top of private health insurance.

doctors , nurses and teachers last time I checked get paid for by taxes paid into the state or from borrowings which will have to be paid back by tax payers. To say that the tax payer does not pay for doctors, nurses and teachers is just incredible. Where does the money come from is there a magical money tree out the back?

Have you any facts that backs up your theory that ps pensions, doctors, nurses and teachers are not paid for by taxes paid into the state?

fliball123

beauf wrote: »

I think you'll find they are fully booked.

Yeah just reading that cool. I take it back about the librarians. Just to add I may come across as someone who is hell bent on a cut to PS pay and pensions but this is only in the face of our current financial predicament we cant afford the current rates let alone pay rises on top the incremental nature of the public service pay bill

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Have you any facts that backs up your theory that ps pensions, doctors, nurses and teachers are not paid for by taxes paid into the state?

Can you find anywhere that I actually came anywhere near saying that theory?

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So just to be clear, you have absolutely no idea what library staff are doing, but you're happy to spread scurrilous, false rumours without any foundation? Would you go talk to your local librarian and educate yourself for a start?


There is no contribution. The money saved by deducting from my salary doesn't go anywhere. It isn't saved.

We used to have a pension reserve fund but unfortunately that had to be spent in bailing out our private sector banks who very nearly pushed our whole economy down the toilet.


No connection between deductions and future pension.


No-one was stopped from leaving their house at any time. Is there any chance you could keep even a slight grip on reality on your posts?

Where did you get the idea the public sector staff should be paying for their future pensions? It's just one aspect of public expenditure. Do parents have to pay for the costs of teachers? Do sick people have to pay for the costs of doctors and nurses?

It's just silly.



Who do you think pays the front-line nurses their salary? Who do you think orders the medical supplies that the front-line nurses will be using? Who do you think builds and manages the ICT systems that the front-line nurses will be using?

Take your divide-and-conquer strategy somewhere else as it's not working here.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Can you find anywhere that I actually came anywhere near saying that theory?

IN bold

Hotblack Desiato

fliball123 wrote: »

Parents if they are working pay tax which goes towards paying teachers. Sick people who are working pay taxes on top of GP costs, on top of medical costs on top of private health insurance.

Do non-parents get a tax rebate for those schools and teachers they're not using?
Do healthy people who haven't used the health service get one?

What a ridiculous thing to say

Geuze

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Unless I'm missing something, there were no pay rises - pay scales are unchanged over that period.

1 and 3 on your list have been addressed. 4 has been partially addressed.

2 hasn't been addressed at all

2010-2014 = Croke Park Agreement = paycuts
2013-2016 Haddington road agreement = pay cuts
2015-2018 Lansdowne road Agreement = pay rises
2018-2020 PSSA = payrises

I will detail them here now:

2016 LRA = PRD threshold increased, twice
2017 LRA = +1,000 pa for salaries up to 65k

2018 PSSA = +1% + 1%
2019 PSSA = PRD threshold increased
2019 PSSA = +1.75%
2020 PSSA = PRD threshold increased
2020 PSSA = +2%


My point is that there has been pay restoration during the LRA and PSSA.

Now, to be fair, I can't swear that all PS are back to the pre-paycut situation.

Higher earners took bigger pay cuts, and the LRA/PSSA payrises will not have brought them back to 2008 levels.

I often though about building a spreadsheet to calculate all of this!!!

blanch152

fliball123 wrote: »

Well hows about this we even the playing field let the public sector cover the full costs of their own pension scheme and then you should be entitled to the OAP as well as not paying the pension levy. I bet this would not be accepted as a lot of public servants would lose a lot of value from their pensions.

You have no idea how pensions work in either the private or public sector.

This was all explained to you several years ago in similar threads, yet here you are back again with the same nonsense.

blanch152

Geuze wrote: »

2010-2014 = Croke Park Agreement = paycuts
2013-2016 Haddington road agreement = pay cuts
2015-2018 Lansdowne road Agreement = pay rises
2018-2020 PSSA = payrises

I will detail them here now:

2016 LRA = PRD threshold increased, twice
2017 LRA = +1,000 pa for salaries up to 65k

2018 PSSA = +1% + 1%
2019 PSSA = PRD threshold increased
2019 PSSA = +1.75%
2020 PSSA = PRD threshold increased
2020 PSSA = +2%


My point is that there has been pay restoration during the LRA and PSSA.

Now, to be fair, I can't swear that all PS are back to the pre-paycut situation.

Higher earners took bigger pay cuts, and the LRA/PSSA payrises will not have brought them back to 2008 levels.

I often though about building a spreadsheet to calculate all of this!!!

https://www.ahcps.ie/Public_Service_Stability_Agreement_20182020/Default.774.html

This union website has the spreadsheet you are looking for in the case of Assistant Principla and Principal Officer scales. Up to €2,700 of a paycut is still applied to these grades. They will be getting this increase in July, which will start off the usual complaints about TD payrises.

For those earning more than this, the restoration won't happen until 2022.

There will be a glut of retirements when the restoration is over.

fliball123

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Do non-parents get a tax rebate for those schools and teachers they're not using?
Do healthy people who haven't used the health service get one?

What a ridiculous thing to say

Non-Parents where once in school themselves so they would be paying for their own education its like you now your paying for a small % of your pension now via a contribution to a defined benefit - your pension levy, but you wont be drawing it down till retirement and as for healthy people I am sure you will agree that a high % of people will contract some kind of illness before they die, we are living longer and diseases that were once killers are being treated with medical advances and people live longer and these people will have to use our health system which is a money pit and not fit for purpose

Your the one being ridiculous now..

fliball123

blanch152 wrote: »

You have no idea how pensions work in either the private or public sector.

This was all explained to you several years ago in similar threads, yet here you are back again with the same nonsense.

Go on blanch enlighten us ??

Answer these questions.

What % of private sector employees can afford a pension that is given to the public sector
Does the public sector even with a pension levy cover the full costs of their pension.

Geuze

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.ahcps.ie/Public_Service_Stability_Agreement_20182020/Default.774.html

This union website has the spreadsheet you are looking for in the case of Assistant Principla and Principal Officer scales. Up to €2,700 of a paycut is still applied to these grades. They will be getting this increase in July, which will start off the usual complaints about TD payrises.

For those earning more than this, the restoration won't happen until 2022.

There will be a glut of retirements when the restoration is over.

I really, really appreciate that spreadsheet.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Does the public sector even with a pension levy cover the full costs of their pension.

No, the staff contributions do not cover the full actuarial cost, and they should not.

The employer, like all employers, should contribute.

Geuze

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.ahcps.ie/Public_Service_Stability_Agreement_20182020/Default.774.html

This union website has the spreadsheet you are looking for in the case of Assistant Principla and Principal Officer scales. Up to €2,700 of a paycut is still applied to these grades. They will be getting this increase in July, which will start off the usual complaints about TD payrises.

For those earning more than this, the restoration won't happen until 2022.

There will be a glut of retirements when the restoration is over.

I am not familiar with this July pay restoration.

I saw something in the news about TD pay, out of sync with the dates of the PS pay changes. I was confused.

I think what is happening here refers only to high earners?

SouthWesterly

fliball123 wrote: »

I am after saying PS would be entitled to the OAP read it again

But we dont. It gets deducted from the pensions we pay into.

salonfire

Geuze wrote: »

No, the staff contributions do not cover the full actuarial cost, and they should not.

The employer, like all employers, should contribute.

I agree.

But the employee also needs to make fair contributions, not dress them up as pay cuts and not have the Government give in to slight of hand tricks of increasing thresholds while proclaiming how high the headline rates are.

kennethsmyth

Geuze wrote: »

No, the staff contributions do not cover the full actuarial cost, and they should not.

The employer, like all employers, should contribute.

Most private employers cannot take the cost to contribute and unless law will not.

Treppen

EddieN75 wrote: »

The nurses were on the front line.
The pen pushers were at home with one eye on good morning Britain getting full whack pay

Don't confuse the two. Don't try ride their coat tails, I know enough people in the public sector to know exactly what has been going on the past year

You'd swear you were hiding behind their curtains watching them

Treppen

Geuze wrote: »

2010-2014 = Croke Park Agreement = paycuts
2013-2016 Haddington road agreement = pay cuts
2015-2018 Lansdowne road Agreement = pay rises
2018-2020 PSSA = payrises

I will detail them here now:

2016 LRA = PRD threshold increased, twice
2017 LRA = +1,000 pa for salaries up to 65k

2018 PSSA = +1% + 1%
2019 PSSA = PRD threshold increased
2019 PSSA = +1.75%
2020 PSSA = PRD threshold increased
2020 PSSA = +2%


My point is that there has been pay restoration during the LRA and PSSA.

Now, to be fair, I can't swear that all PS are back to the pre-paycut situation.

Higher earners took bigger pay cuts, and the LRA/PSSA payrises will not have brought them back to 2008 levels.

I often though about building a spreadsheet to calculate all of this!!!

It's not a "pay rise" for nothing btw.
The T&C of employment were changed.
Don't forget to put that into the spreadsheet.

fliball123

Treppen wrote: »

It's not a "pay rise" for nothing btw.
The T&C of employment were changed.
Don't forget to put that into the spreadsheet.

As has your employers finances dont forget to put that in the spreedsheet also

kennethsmyth

Treppen wrote: »

It's not a "pay rise" for nothing btw.
The T&C of employment were changed.
Don't forget to put that into the spreadsheet.

Has "benchmarking" been mentioned at all?

Treppen

Geuze wrote: »

No, the staff contributions do not cover the full actuarial cost, and they should not.

The employer, like all employers, should contribute.

Trident report states that new entrants will barely make back what they contribute to the new career average pension... and that's assuming they start on full pay and have full service.

Necro

Folks can we play the ball not the man - discuss the topic of the thread or don't post here, cheers

Vizzy

fliball123 wrote: »

Some have what exactly have the likes of Librarians being doing??

You will be glad to hear that you can walk in to any Library on 10th May and ask them.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

IN bold

I didn't say that ps pensions, doctors, nurses and teachers are not paid for by taxes paid into the state.

I pointed out that the costs of running hospitals don't rest on sick people, just as the costs of running schools don't rest on the parents of students, just as the costs of public sector pensions don't rest on public sector staff.

These are all just aspects of public expenditure, paid from general taxation. The ASC isn't a pension contribution. There is no pension pot to contribute to. It is a cut in salary that reduces current public expenditure.

salonfire

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There is no pension pot to contribute to. It is a cut in salary that reduces current public expenditure.

And that's your contribution! The reduction in current expenditure.

Glad that's all cleared up for now.

Geuze

SouthWesterly wrote: »

But we dont. It gets deducted from the pensions we pay into.

Just to be 100% clear.

PS hired after April 1995 pay normal PRSI and will receive the State Pension.

Yes, the State Pension is integrated into their work pension.

But they will actually get a State Pension from the DSP.

Turtwig

Geuze wrote: »

Just to be 100% clear.

PS hired after April 1995 pay normal PRSI and will receive the State Pension.

Yes, the State Pension is integrated into their work pension.

But they will actually get a State Pension from the DSP.

I've been following this thread off and on so please forgive me if this has already being answered.

Does this mean if a guard gets an annual pension of 35,000 the first 12,000 of that 35,000 is actually the DSP State Pension or do they get 35,000 plus the 12,000.

If I'm understanding you guys correctly I think it's the former. I wanted to confirm: My understanding from reading here is the calculation seems to adjust their pension somehow to incorporate the state pension to give the career average annual earnings e.g

Career earnings 25,000
Occ Pension is 13,000
State pension 12,000

JimmyVik

Geuze wrote: »

2010-2014 = Croke Park Agreement = paycuts
2013-2016 Haddington road agreement = pay cuts
2015-2018 Lansdowne road Agreement = pay rises
2018-2020 PSSA = payrises

I will detail them here now:

2016 LRA = PRD threshold increased, twice
2017 LRA = +1,000 pa for salaries up to 65k

2018 PSSA = +1% + 1%
2019 PSSA = PRD threshold increased
2019 PSSA = +1.75%
2020 PSSA = PRD threshold increased
2020 PSSA = +2%


My point is that there has been pay restoration during the LRA and PSSA.

Now, to be fair, I can't swear that all PS are back to the pre-paycut situation.

Higher earners took bigger pay cuts, and the LRA/PSSA payrises will not have brought them back to 2008 levels.

I often though about building a spreadsheet to calculate all of this!!!

Jesus thats shocking.
My salary has increased about 20% since 2016.
I still do the same job and the same amount of work.