Public service pay cut?

JimmyVik

Geuze wrote: »

Just to be 100% clear.

PS hired after April 1995 pay normal PRSI and will receive the State Pension.

Yes, the State Pension is integrated into their work pension.

But they will actually get a State Pension from the DSP.

how does that work?
If I retire and have a pension of €30k then when im 67 or so i get the state pension of about €12K added to that, so im getting €42k.


If a PS employees pension is €30k is the state pension then added to it too?

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I didn't say that ps pensions, doctors, nurses and teachers are not paid for by taxes paid into the state.

I pointed out that the costs of running hospitals don't rest on sick people, just as the costs of running schools don't rest on the parents of students, just as the costs of public sector pensions don't rest on public sector staff.

These are all just aspects of public expenditure, paid from general taxation. The ASC isn't a pension contribution. There is no pension pot to contribute to. It is a cut in salary that reduces current public expenditure.

Tax payers pay into the public purse, all taxes with the exception of corporation tax is a derivative of personal income tax. This goes into an account (lets get away from pot as I think this may be upsetting you or confusing you). Now out of this account the running of the country has to be paid out. This includes servicing our debt, welfare and paying public sector pay and pensions along side many other things.

Now the idea of paying tax is that at some stage you will need access to certain services such as teachers/education nurses, doctors, hospitals/Health and some others like firemen which you may never need but are handy to have in case of emergencies. But to say that the costs of running these services take a hospital for example doesn't rest on sick people is not right, as if a sick person has paid any tax then they have paid into the cost of running that hospital and guess what everyone in the country pays tax even if its only VAT so your theory is flawed. The sick person might not pick up the tab on the way out of the hospital but they sure as hell will have been paying the tab throughout their working and spending life.

This levy that is imposed on you is in order to bring down what the tax payer has to pay as they are already over paying into a system that is broken in a lot of areas and not worth the cash that is been paid into it (take the HSE for example) and its also to bring the costs/burden of public sector pensions down, by you paying this ASC it means other tax payers (the private sector ones) who don't get a pension do not have to pay as much or borrow as much or the money saved by you and other public servants paying a small % of what it costs to fulfill the costs of those pensions means that the money saved can be used elsewhere or not borrowed at all.

This is simple the public sector employees get the benefit of the pensions therefore they should pay a much larger proportion of the expense that it costs to fund these pensions.

You believe that the money saved by the state from you paying the ASC goes nowhere which couldn't be further from the truth. It doesn't just go up in smoke in our current financial position it means we dont have to borrow that amount which has an added value of not having to pay interest on that borrowing either.

Geuze

Turtwig wrote: »

I've been following this thread off and on so please forgive me if this has already being answered.

Does this mean if a guard gets an annual pension of 35,000 the first 12,000 of that 35,000 is actually the DSP State Pension or do they get 35,000 plus the 12,000.

If I'm understanding you guys correctly I think it's the former. I wanted to confirm: My understanding from reading here is the calculation seems to adjust their pension somehow to incorporate the state pension to give the career average annual earnings e.g

Career earnings 25,000
Occ Pension is 13,000
State pension 12,000

PS final salary = 50k, full 40 years done.

Pension is 25k, made up of:

13k State Pension
12k work pension.

They get a max pension of 50% of final salary, including SPC.

Geuze

JimmyVik wrote: »

how does that work?
If I retire and have a pension of €30k then when im 67 or so i get the state pension of about €12K added to that, so im getting €42k.


If a PS employees pension is €30k is the state pension then added to it too?

No, the SPC is integrated / co-ordinated with the work pension.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

PS final salary = 50k, full 40 years done.

Pension is 25k, made up of:

13k State Pension
12k work pension.

They get a max pension of 50% of final salary, including SPC.

Whats the lump sum on top of this Geuze?

Pogue eile

Pogue eile wrote: »

Very interesting article in yesterdays Business Post by Aiden Corkery. Apparently Irelands share of the EU Covid Recovery Fund is to be slashed by over 80% in 2022 because our economy is doing so well compared to the EU 27 and our GDP is forecast to grow by 3.4% this year and 3.5% next year.

Would also be very interested to hear our resident economy experts views on this development or also his views on the Italian Prime Ministers plans on how to extract Italy from their economic crisis. PM Draghi has sought and got approval from Brussels to spend a total of €220bn as he quite correctly pointed out that the simplest way to ensure an economy recovers is to ensure that people actually have money to spend! The plan contains no plans to raise any personal taxes or any cuts to public service pay. For context Mr Draghi is the former President of the European Central Bank - but I am sure we have at least one poster here who is far more qualified in offering advice on how to run an economy :D

I see Eddie Hobbs is back!

Any thoughts on the above fliball, you seemed to disappear there for a few days when you were taking a beating!

JimmyVik

Pogue eile wrote: »

I see Eddie Hobbs is back!

Any thoughts on the above fliball, you seemed to disappear there for a few days when you were taking a beating!

If that he is back then a crash is surely just around the corner

Is he pimping property in the Azores yet?

Pogue eile

JimmyVik wrote: »

If that he is back then a crash is surely just around the corner

Is he pimping property in the Azores yet?

I was being slightly disingenuous Jimmy!

fliball123 fancies himself as a leading economist despite not even having a grasp on the most basic of principles!

salonfire

Pogue eile wrote: »

I was being slightly disingenuous Jimmy!

fliball123 fancies himself as a leading economist despite not even having a grasp on the most basic of principles!

So why don't you point out the errors he made?

Pogue eile

salonfire wrote: »

So why don't you point out the errors he made?

Are you serious?

They have been pointed out repeatedly - between not actually knowing who or what a public servant is, to willfully ignoring the fact that all public servants also pay tax, by somehow coming to the daft conclusion that the most effective way to stimulate an economy is by reducing peoples spending power, by claiming that all taxes derive from income tax etc. etc.

We have been over this a million times, and by taking a few days off and returning to rehash the same ill thought nonsense back of an envelope economics doesn't change any of that.

fliball123

Pogue eile wrote: »

I see Eddie Hobbs is back!

Any thoughts on the above fliball, you seemed to disappear there for a few days when you were taking a beating!

All countries have been impacted by covid.

Do we still need money from the RECOVERY FUND - yes we do, are we as bad off as other countries due to covid - No we are not. Just think of those words that I capitalized. RECOVERY FUND the fact that we need any money from it would show that we are in trouble there are some countries who are net contributors to this fund, Ireland will not be a nett contributor because our finances are all over the shop. This is also predicated on our GDP lets see how our GDP stands up when we lose 6 billion in corporation taxes in the next few years due to tax law changes. We will have to get money from this fund for the next number of years and if we do lose that 6 Billion we may need more than is currently predicted.

So just because others are worse off than we are now they are getting more of a share it doesn't mean that we are not in trouble. Far from it. Its funny you spinning a story about Ireland needing access to this fund and spinning it as a positive because in comparison to Italy and Spain and other countries that in a worse financial position we are we have had our share cut.



The fact is and what you should take away from that story is we have to look to Europe to help with our debts and deficit.

Hotblack Desiato

Turtwig wrote: »

Does this mean if a guard gets an annual pension of 35,000 the first 12,000 of that 35,000 is actually the DSP State Pension

Yes, unlike ANY other occupational pension it is not paid on top of the contributory OAP

Of course the media never point this out.

Pre-1995 public servants don't get the OAP (or the associated non-cash benefits) at all.

Specsavers must love me, I don't have a medical card or PRSI so when they give me a "free" eye test they have to swallow the cost themselves :pac: the youngfella filling in the form can't comprehend how someone can't either have medical card (not working) or PRSI (working)

SouthWesterly

Geuze wrote: »

Just to be 100% clear.

PS hired after April 1995 pay normal PRSI and will receive the State Pension.

Yes, the State Pension is integrated into their work pension.

But they will actually get a State Pension from the DSP.

So we're agreed, we pay into a pension and then get whatever the state pension will be deducted from it just so we can get a state pension unlike the private sector employee who gets it without having to pay anything additional to prsi to get it.


Public sector in the end loose out. Another pay cut.


Did you know retirees even got a pension cut the last 10 years. In the form of Public service pension reductions. A pension which they had paid into.

salonfire

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yes, unlike ANY other occupational pension it is not paid on top of the contributory OAP

Of course the media never point this out.

Pre-1995 public servants don't get the OAP (or the associated non-cash benefits) at all.

More lies and myths by our glorious public servants. How do you people even get past the interview stage.

Pre-1995 public servants pay a much smaller PRSI deduction so why would they get the OAP?

Of course YOU never point this out.

EddieN75

fliball123 wrote: »

All countries have been impacted by covid.

Do we still need money from the RECOVERY FUND - yes we do, are we as bad off as other countries due to covid - No we are not. Just think of those words that I capitalized. RECOVERY FUND the fact that we need any money from it would show that we are in trouble there are some countries who are net contributors to this fund, Ireland will not be a nett contributor because our finances are all over the shop. This is also predicated on our GDP lets see how our GDP stands up when we lose 6 billion in corporation taxes in the next few years due to tax law changes. We will have to get money from this fund for the next number of years and if we do lose that 6 Billion we may need more than is currently predicted.

So just because others are worse off than we are now they are getting more of a share it doesn't mean that we are not in trouble. Far from it. Its funny you spinning a story about Ireland needing access to this fund and spinning it as a positive because in comparison to Italy and Spain and other countries that in a worse financial position we are we have had our share cut.



The fact is and what you should take away from that story is we have to look to Europe to help with our debts and deficit.

"An electronic system for sharing medical records, a centralised data centre and the retrofitting of state buildings are among the projects that the government plans to invest Ireland’s share of the €750 billion EU recovery fund in"

Sunday business post


The CCP would be proud.

AndrewJRenko

EddieN75 wrote: »

"An electronic system for sharing medical records, a centralised data centre and the retrofitting of state buildings are among the projects that the government plans to invest Ireland’s share of the €750 billion EU recovery fund in"

Sunday business post


The CCP would be proud.

Critical Care Paramedic?

Yeah, they probably would be proud of the better job they can do, saving more lives, if they can access medical history out on the road, with appropriate checks and controls of course.

Hotblack Desiato

salonfire wrote: »

More lies and myths by our glorious public servants. How do you people even get past the interview stage.

Pre-1995 public servants pay a much smaller PRSI deduction so why would they get the OAP?

Of course YOU never point this out.

I see you go straight to personal abuse :rolleyes:

Look up the employee PRSI rates and get back to me.

Also the pre-1995 pay scales are lower across the board.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

This is simple the public sector employees get the benefit of the pensions therefore they should pay a much larger proportion of the expense that it costs to fund these pensions.

.

I don't have time to go through all the mistakes in your post (all taxes are derivatives of income tax - haaaahaaha).

So let's just focus on your "get the benefit" principle you set out above.

Hospital patients get the benefit of hospital staff and infrastructure, so they should pay a much larger proportion of the expense of funding these hospitals, right?

Parents of schoolkids get the benefits of schools and teachers and child benefit payments so they should pay a much larger proportion of the expense of funding these schools and welfare payments, right?

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I don't have time to go through all the mistakes in your post (all taxes are derivatives of income tax - haaaahaaha).

So let's just focus on your "get the benefit" principle you set out above.

Hospital patients get the benefit of hospital staff and infrastructure, so they should pay a much larger proportion of the expense of funding these hospitals, right?

Parents of schoolkids get the benefits of schools and teachers and child benefit payments so they should pay a much larger proportion of the expense of funding these schools and welfare payments, right?

A lot of people have private health care as well and as far as I am aware we pay a lot in personal taxation in order to cover the expense of hospital staff and infrastructure, every time you go to a GP you also get charged 50/70Euro, same goes with a hospital visit not to mention having to pay out more for any medication to the pharmacist and dont get me started on the car park fees within hosptials. Is that not enough for you. How much is the HSE consuming in spend every year. You really picked the worst offenders when it comes to spend and value for money within the HSE. This group is hardly a bastion of shrewd spending. We are among the highest countries in the OCED when it comes to spend per person and we are paying about 1/3rd more than average.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/state-among-highest-spenders-on-health-per-person-in-oecd-1.3547256#:~:text=operation%20and%20Development.-,Ireland%20spends%20%E2%82%AC4%2C706%20per%20head%20of%20population%20on%20healthcare,per%20person%20in%20the%20OECD.



The kid gets the benefit of the education and school and when they grow up they will over time pay back what was spent in order to get them through our educational system. The parents get the benefit of not having to babysit and can go to work where they are taxed through the nose when they dare earn any more than the AIW.. Is this not enough for you.If not then just to throw a little petrel on the fire

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-to-have-highest-debt-per-head-in-europe-this-year-1.4503652

Now read the link and ask yourself the question.

Do you not think we are paying and borrowing enough to fund what you outlined above?

I think we are I think a blind man looking at the figures of what we are paying in personal taxation and borrowing would see this.

So what tax beside corporation tax is not originating from Personal taxation? I guess you can argue CGT and CAT as well

Pogue eile

fliball123 wrote: »

All countries have been impacted by covid.

Do we still need money from the RECOVERY FUND - yes we do, are we as bad off as other countries due to covid - No we are not. Just think of those words that I capitalized. RECOVERY FUND the fact that we need any money from it would show that we are in trouble there are some countries who are net contributors to this fund, Ireland will not be a nett contributor because our finances are all over the shop. This is also predicated on our GDP lets see how our GDP stands up when we lose 6 billion in corporation taxes in the next few years due to tax law changes. We will have to get money from this fund for the next number of years and if we do lose that 6 Billion we may need more than is currently predicted.

So just because others are worse off than we are now they are getting more of a share it doesn't mean that we are not in trouble. Far from it. Its funny you spinning a story about Ireland needing access to this fund and spinning it as a positive because in comparison to Italy and Spain and other countries that in a worse financial position we are we have had our share cut.



The fact is and what you should take away from that story is we have to look to Europe to help with our debts and deficit.

I know you love a good link so here, educate yourself a small bit before spouting utter garbage -

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_21_1870

https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/recovery-coronavirus/recovery-and-resilience-facility_en

fliball123

Pogue eile wrote: »

I know you love a good link so here, educate yourself a small bit before spouting utter garbage -

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_21_1870

https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/recovery-coronavirus/recovery-and-resilience-facility_en

Are we a nett contributor to this fund yes or no. ?

Regardless of what the fund is used for or who is taken what amount. We are taking money from it and that has to be paid back as well by the way its not a free lunch.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/eu-recovery-fund-how-the-750bn-plan-will-work-1.4310067

Read how its paid back. Your still trying to spin us being a nett taker of this money as being positive.

Now if interest rates rise in any meaningful the next 5/10 years we will have the IMF back in here currently they are at zero (cant see them going lower ). If we lose 6 billion of corporation tax in the
next 3/5 years we will have the IMF back in here as well.

So answer the question please do you think it shows our finances positively that we are nett takers from the Euro recovery Fund??

Pogue eile

Right I'm out, this lad is beyond help!

Let's hope for fliball's sake they don't introduce a 'stupid tax' poor fcuker will be bankrupt overnight :rolleyes:

SouthWesterly

SouthWesterly wrote: »

You mean unlike the thousands of private sector workers who don't pay into a pension and will get a state pension. Unlike civil servants who are paying towards their pensions and have the state pension amount deducted from their work pension.

Don't say private sector pay prsi and contribute that way. Public sector pay it as well. Plus pension contributions plus asc which is just a tax by a different name

It is a bit annoying that you don't get a state pension.

Take that 13k (?) out of your public sector pension. Add up your PRSI contributions and pay deductions and it's not that great a pension.



My Guinness pension would have hammered the public as I would also get state pension

fliball123

Pogue eile wrote: »

Right I'm out, this lad is beyond help!

Let's hope for fliball's sake they don't introduce a 'stupid tax' poor fcuker will be bankrupt overnight :rolleyes:

I asked you to answer one simple question and because the answer to the question blows your take on our finances out of the water your attacking me.

Pogue eile

fliball123 wrote: »

I asked you to answer one simple question and because the answer to the question blows your take on our finances out of the water your attacking me.

You clearly didn't read the links if you are talking about net contributors and recovery funds that need to be paid back - educate yourself before you get up on that high horse, it a long way down.

Enjoy your misery, I'm off to spend my outrageously generous pension on coke and hookers :D:D

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

A lot of people have private health care as well and as far as I am aware we pay a lot in personal taxation in order to cover the expense of hospital staff and infrastructure, every time you go to a GP you also get charged 50/70Euro, same goes with a hospital visit not to mention having to pay out more for any medication to the pharmacist and dont get me started on the car park fees within hosptials. Is that not enough for you. How much is the HSE consuming in spend every year. You really picked the worst offenders when it comes to spend and value for money within the HSE. This group is hardly a bastion of shrewd spending. We are among the highest countries in the OCED when it comes to spend per person and we are paying about 1/3rd more than average.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/state-among-highest-spenders-on-health-per-person-in-oecd-1.3547256#:~:text=operation%20and%20Development.-,Ireland%20spends%20%E2%82%AC4%2C706%20per%20head%20of%20population%20on%20healthcare,per%20person%20in%20the%20OECD.



The kid gets the benefit of the education and school and when they grow up they will over time pay back what was spent in order to get them through our educational system. The parents get the benefit of not having to babysit and can go to work where they are taxed through the nose when they dare earn any more than the AIW.. Is this not enough for you.If not then just to throw a little petrel on the fire

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-to-have-highest-debt-per-head-in-europe-this-year-1.4503652

Now read the link and ask yourself the question.

Do you not think we are paying and borrowing enough to fund what you outlined above?

I think we are I think a blind man looking at the figures of what we are paying in personal taxation and borrowing would see this.

So what tax beside corporation tax is not originating from Personal taxation? I guess you can argue CGT and CAT as well

Excuse me, I'm a little confused now.

Have you changed your position of earlier today that those who get the most benefit should fund any particular scheme?

fliball123

Pogue eile wrote: »

You clearly didn't read the links if you are talking about net contributors and recovery funds that need to be paid back - educate yourself before you get up on that high horse, it a long way down.

Enjoy your misery, I'm off to spend my outrageously generous pension on coke and hookers :D:D

Ireland is not a net contributor to this the link I set out here

https://www.thejournal.ie/eu-recovery-fund-ireland-5155487-Jul2020/

The actual question of is Ireland a nett contributor to the 750Billion that is the fund and the answer is NO. I did read your links it outlines the countries involved and how it works. It doesnt go into which countries are nett receivers or net contributor to this fund. If it does can you show me?

in the below link it outlines how this money taken from the fund is paid back

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/eu-recovery-fund-how-the-750bn-plan-will-work-1.4310067

You stick to your spin you still have not answered the questions and once again when things are not staking up you attack the poster

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Excuse me, I'm a little confused now.

Have you changed your position of earlier today that those who get the most benefit should fund any particular scheme?

What are you on about can you link the post in question?

EddieN75

fliball123 wrote: »

Ireland is not a net contributor to this the link I set out here

https://www.thejournal.ie/eu-recovery-fund-ireland-5155487-Jul2020/

The actual question of is Ireland a nett contributor to the 750Billion that is the fund and the answer is NO. I did read your links it outlines the countries involved and how it works. It doesnt go into which countries are nett receivers or net contributor to this fund. If it does can you show me?

in the below link it outlines how this money taken from the fund is paid back

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/eu-recovery-fund-how-the-750bn-plan-will-work-1.4310067

You stick to your spin you still have not answered the questions and once again when things are not staking up you attack the poster

On another note EU contributions are worked out by the GDP of countries.
Ireland because of its leprechaun economics with multinationals inflating the figures ends up paying a substantial amount more than an economy its size should.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

What are you on about can you link the post in question?

Is your memory that bad that you don't remember saying:

"This is simple the public sector employees get the benefit of the pensions therefore they should pay a much larger proportion of the expense"

If that's your principled position, then you would also be in favour of sick people, who get the benefit of the hospitals, paying a larger proportion of the expense of running hospitals?