Public service pay cut?

saabsaab

LillySV wrote: »

Well they are on less pay than they signed up for prior to 08, have way more deductions now that lowers their net pay to well below what they would’ve got in 08, they have three pension deductions in their wages each period, plus the prsi, paye, usc, and asc. They are losing all the money in the 12 years since and still with any future increase be on less net than they would in 2008. Ohh and did I forget , they work an extra half hour a day since then also... with no money or reward for it!! I’d like to see those conditions put forward in your company and see how many agree to it

No doubt the public sector got hammered in the last crash. So did many in the private sector but should we be setting the standard by the lowest common denominator? Anyway PS paycuts won't be possible this time.

Snow Garden

I worked in the public service pre 2008 and even then many of us knew that Bertie's benchmarking had made our pay, conditions and allowances excessively generous, all things considered. Especially since the actual services weren't improving and there were major performance issues, bureaucratic problems and chronic absenteeism. So perhaps returning to 2008 levels is not a fair comparison in terms of entitlement.

LillySV

almostover wrote: »

The public sector pay deals brought in under benchmarking were unsustainable. We can't go back to that practice. Public sector workers must contribute appropriately towards their pension also. The old system of meager contributions for an excellent pension scheme was also unsustainable. Surely you understand that?

I'm contracted for a 38 hour working week. I have never worked that. Usually 40-45 hours, but I want to progress my career and get yearly salary increases. If I was happy stagnating I'd do just what's required of me and no more. It's simple.

My point to you is that the old system is gone .... civil servants from 05 are paying more than their share, meanwhile their pension entitlement a lot less than those before them .

I think people in this country need to start venting their frustration at the tds , the ministers... they want details of their pay hidden, info on their massive pensions and expenses not being released . Their friends in rte and the indo not reporting or making any mention of all the extra incentives the ff/fg tds and ministers have been signing into law in recent years .( and its not cause of lazy reporting.. ).. and while we mention that ... what about the massive level of money been handed to their pals in legal system ... they were told by trouble to reform legal system in the last recession but the gravy train left there... free legal aid to lads.... massive blue collar crime going unpunished since then ... taxpayers pay for it all ...


And I’ll finish on this final point ... looks like we going to get ff/fg and the greens. Even though very little voted for greens and ff and fg got less votes than others .....so basically a system that puts in people that didn’t even get voted in


I suppose what I’m saying is the taxpayer in this country needs to start uniting and protesting against the real problems in this country ... cronyism being a big one

beauf

almostover wrote: »

The public sector pay deals brought in under benchmarking were unsustainable. We can't go back to that practice. Public sector workers must contribute appropriately towards their pension also. The old system of meager contributions for an excellent pension scheme was also unsustainable. Surely you understand that?

I'm contracted for a 38 hour working week. I have never worked that. Usually 40-45 hours, but I want to progress my career and get yearly salary increases. If I was happy stagnating I'd do just what's required of me and no more. It's simple.

That fine but you have to accept the consequences of that.

One would be all public services we use will be negatively effected.

Some might suggest it could all be automated, streamlined. Sure but it requires people to do that, and you won't attract them in to Public service with poor conditions. So contract it out and its gets milked as a cash cow, so you end up getting less for more.

You could argue, you need to cut down the bloat, get people to work more effectively. But you'll be battling the unions for years. Every try implement change in the public sector. Its like trying to sprint in glue.

Worthwhile and needed sure. But simple?

hardybuck

One thing that should be resolved immediately is the accelerated pensions for Gardai.

Service after the 20th year is doubled for pension purposes, so they can retire on a full pension with 30 years service.

Aside from this costing a fortune, it means that thousands of experienced Gardai are leaving as young men and women when they have loads more to offer. It made sense years ago when people didn't live as long, but that day is over.

purifol0

purifol0 wrote: »

You mean part time workers like public sector Teachers & Lecturers?

Nope because they still work after your precious toddles home.

I meant the weekend staff in restaurants, pubs, etc and add I said and you ignored, that baby companies consider 30 hours to be full-time now.

So again, can you produce a study that shows the average hourly rate and compares education level?

hardybuck

hardybuck wrote: »

One thing that should be resolved immediately is the accelerated pensions for Gardai.

Service after the 20th year is doubled for pension purposes, so they can retire on a full pension with 30 years service.

Aside from this costing a fortune, it means that thousands of experienced Gardai are leaving as young men and women when they have loads more to offer. It made sense years ago when people didn't live as long, but that day is over.

Years ago the minimum age was 50. Now it's 55 so it's already been addressed to match longer life

55 ain't young for that kind of physical work. You try chasing a Criminal and wrestling him at 55 after 30 years shift work.

saabsaab

hardybuck wrote: »

One thing that should be resolved immediately is the accelerated pensions for Gardai.

Service after the 20th year is doubled for pension purposes, so they can retire on a full pension with 30 years service.

Aside from this costing a fortune, it means that thousands of experienced Gardai are leaving as young men and women when they have loads more to offer. It made sense years ago when people didn't live as long, but that day is over.

It might be back. I'd say that average lifespan is set to decrease in the next while.

almostover

beauf wrote: »

That fine but you have to accept the consequences of that.

One would be all public services we use will be negatively effected.

Some might suggest it could all be automated, streamlined. Sure but it requires people to do that, and you won't attract them in to Public service with poor conditions. So contract it out and its gets milked as a cash cow, so you end up getting less for more.

You could argue, you need to cut down the bloat, get people to work more effectively. But you'll be battling the unions for years. Every try implement change in the public sector. Its like trying to sprint in glue.

Worthwhile and needed sure. But simple?

Correct, simple in theory. Here's a easy one. The Gardai have ANPR software that recognises your number plate as you drive by. It tells them if your tax is paid up or not. Yet there are people employed in the public sector to print off tax discs and send them out. Their job is obsolete and were paying for it unnecessarily with our tax euros.

Snow Garden

almostover wrote: »

The public sector pay deals brought in under benchmarking were unsustainable. We can't go back to that practice. Public sector workers must contribute appropriately towards their pension also. The old system of meager contributions for an excellent pension scheme was also unsustainable. Surely you understand that?

I'm contracted for a 38 hour working week. I have never worked that. Usually 40-45 hours, but I want to progress my career and get yearly salary increases. If I was happy stagnating I'd do just what's required of me and no more. It's simple.

When I worked in the public service there were never any performance appraisals (not even as a box ticking exercise) and your band increments were automatic. Hard to believe but I think it's still the case.

hardybuck

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Years ago the minimum age was 50. Now it's 55 so it's already been addressed to match longer life

55 ain't young for that kind of physical work. You try chasing a Criminal and wrestling him at 55 after 30 years shift work.

Who says you have to be chasing and wrestling anyone? Let the young lads do that and let the older guys stay longer to pass on their experience and work on complex investigations.

almostover

almostover wrote: »

Correct, simple in theory. Here's a easy one. The Gardai have ANPR software that recognises your number plate as you drive by. It tells them if your tax is paid up or not. Yet there are people employed in the public sector to print off tax discs and send them out. Their job is obsolete and were paying for it unnecessarily with out tax euros.

Will considering anpr is only in a couple of cars, no it's not obsolete. Anpr costs money to install and maintain. You are still spending the money just but in people but then those people will be in the dole so that's not a good plan

hardybuck

saabsaab wrote: »

[/B]


It might be back. I'd say that average lifespan is set to decrease in the next while.

The average age of the Civil Service is about 47 at the moment. If the Garda rules applied a huge volume would be out the gap in 3-5 years.

Public Servants can now work to 70 if they choose to.

radiotrickster

PARlance wrote: »

It's not that hard to see why nurses are getting the most kudos, is it. Front line, in the firing line. I know 2 and both got it, one got it very bad and they wasn't far away from having to be put in an induced coma. Back to work a few weeks later as well.

I know a hospital security guard who ended up in ICU with the coronavirus. He wasn’t the only sick guard from there.

A lot more people are frontline staff, getting close to patients and helping them than just the nurses.

hardybuck

hardybuck wrote: »

Who says you have to be chasing and wrestling anyone? Let the young lads do that and let the older guys stay longer to pass on their experience and work on complex investigations.

So have a top heavy organisation of people in offices unable to perform their full function?

Policing is a young man's game. There's enough senior heads under 50 that can teach them

almostover

LillySV wrote: »

My point to you is that the old system is gone .... civil servants from 05 are paying more than their share, meanwhile their pension entitlement a lot less than those before them .

I think people in this country need to start venting their frustration at the tds , the ministers... they want details of their pay hidden, info on their massive pensions and expenses not being released . Their friends in rte and the indo not reporting or making any mention of all the extra incentives the ff/fg tds and ministers have been signing into law in recent years .( and its not cause of lazy reporting.. ).. and while we mention that ... what about the massive level of money been handed to their pals in legal system ... they were told by trouble to reform legal system in the last recession but the gravy train left there... free legal aid to lads.... massive blue collar crime going unpunished since then ... taxpayers pay for it all ...


And I’ll finish on this final point ... looks like we going to get ff/fg and the greens. Even though very little voted for greens and ff and fg got less votes than others .....so basically a system that puts in people that didn’t even get voted in


I suppose what I’m saying is the taxpayer in this country needs to start uniting and protesting against the real problems in this country ... cronyism being a big one

Firstly FF got the most seats. Secondly we have a PR STV electoral system so it is irrelevant who got the most seats or the most votes. Whatever goverment can come together with an overall majority based on policy agreements is one with a mandate to govern. We're going to get FF/FG/Greens and that's what could be put in place based on the election results. Guessing you voted SF or Soc Dems.....the eternal hurlers from the ditch?

All of the groups you've mentioned are part of the public service. TDs are in a unique position because every 5 years their job is up for review. I've no problem with what they're paid, if their not doing their job we can get rid of them. Shane Ross is a good example.

I'm against bureaucracy and cronyism in all sectors,public and private. But customers in the private sector don't pay for bureaucracy for long. All of us as citizens and taxpayers should demand a more efficient public sector.

Maybe this was said earlier but is it not more likely rather than politically sensitive pay cuts to PS workers, that we just see a COVID levy applied to everybody in the state? Maybe in 2 or 3 broad income bands (including those on social)

purifol0

[Deleted User] wrote: »

^ this is our bastion of respectful discourse in the thread folks


walk into a warehouse and talk to some big lad working there like that because "customers pay his wages"

itll be a public servant treating you an hour later id say

If you want to be treated an hour later you had better have bought private health insurance

LillySV

thomasdylan wrote: »

Anyone working half an hour extra a day wasn't working full time hours before. You weren't doing 39 or 40 hours a week. There's little to moan about there.

What’s full time hours to u? I’m sure current emergency services personnel might consider your hours like a half day...

Lots of Staff in c service working well over their hours at moment to keep the country running and losing the hours... not getting paid for them or gettin to keep the hours for a later period as flexi hours system gone...

thomasdylan

thomasdylan wrote: »

Anyone working half an hour extra a day wasn't working full time hours before. You weren't doing 39 or 40 hours a week. There's little to moan about there.

Why is it such a source of pride to work longer hours. What is wrong with a 35 hr week. Instead of lambasting a 35 or 37 hr week for public servants why not push for it in the private sector. Are we big supposed to be more efficient and productive with technology in 2020.

khalessi

purifol0 wrote: »

If you want to be treated an hour later you had better have bought private health insurance

Private health care is open to everyone and does not get you seen any faster in casualty. Triage is based on severity of illness not whether you have vhi or whatever

Charles Babbage

almostover wrote: »

Correct, simple in theory. Here's a easy one. The Gardai have ANPR software that recognises your number plate as you drive by. It tells them if your tax is paid up or not. Yet there are people employed in the public sector to print off tax discs and send them out. Their job is obsolete and were paying for it unnecessarily with our tax euros.

Motor tax is almost completely automated, it is one of the worst examples is use of inefficiency.

While ANPR seems like the solution in the UK abolishing tax discs lead to a lot more evasion.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/nov/16/untaxed-vehicles-uk-trebles-tax-disc-abolition-vehicle-excise-duty-dvla

almostover

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Motor tax is almost completely automated, it is one of the worst examples is use of inefficiency.

While ANPR seems like the solution in the UK abolishing tax discs lead to a lot more evasion.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/nov/16/untaxed-vehicles-uk-trebles-tax-disc-abolition-vehicle-excise-duty-dvla

Let's not conflate correlation and causation.

blanch152

addaword wrote: »

There are plenty of other tough jobs in the economy, and virtually none in the private sector where you can retire after 30 years with a pension pot worth 1.8 million, as the Irish times research shows.

That pension pot worth 1.8 million is nonsense, as it is an individual calculation which takes no account of the fact that a Garda is in a collective pension scheme.

It is like comparing apples and oranges.

Roger the cabin boy

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe this was said earlier but is it not more likely rather than politically sensitive pay cuts to PS workers, that we just see a COVID levy applied to everybody in the state? Maybe in 2 or 3 broad income bands (including those on social)

Yup

A covid levy is coming.

Do we still have the Irish insurance levy, and the post 2008 levy as well?


lol

blanch152

LillySV wrote: »

My point to you is that the old system is gone .... civil servants from 05 are paying more than their share, meanwhile their pension entitlement a lot less than those before them .

I think people in this country need to start venting their frustration at the tds , the ministers... they want details of their pay hidden, info on their massive pensions and expenses not being released . Their friends in rte and the indo not reporting or making any mention of all the extra incentives the ff/fg tds and ministers have been signing into law in recent years .( and its not cause of lazy reporting.. ).. and while we mention that ... what about the massive level of money been handed to their pals in legal system ... they were told by trouble to reform legal system in the last recession but the gravy train left there... free legal aid to lads.... massive blue collar crime going unpunished since then ... taxpayers pay for it all ...


And I’ll finish on this final point ... looks like we going to get ff/fg and the greens. Even though very little voted for greens and ff and fg got less votes than others .....so basically a system that puts in people that didn’t even get voted in


I suppose what I’m saying is the taxpayer in this country needs to start uniting and protesting against the real problems in this country ... cronyism being a big one

More nonsense. I saw a calculation that showed that the net household income for Violet Anne-Wynne's family was higher on social welfare than a single person as a TD would get in take-home because of the way that the social welfare system encourages families not to work and the tax system penalises single people who do work.

Reform needs to start with the social wefare system. One of the key lessons from this crisis is that the shock of losing a job causes an immediate loss that is higher than the long-term loss. A rebalancing of the social welfare system away from the long-term slackers and towards the recently unemployed would be a very good development.

Snow Garden

blanch152 wrote: »

More nonsense. I saw a calculation that showed that the net household income for Violet Anne-Wynne's family was higher on social welfare than a single person as a TD would get in take-home because of the way that the social welfare system encourages families not to work and the tax system penalises single people who do work.

Reform needs to start with the social wefare system. One of the key lessons from this crisis is that the shock of losing a job causes an immediate loss that is higher than the long-term loss. A rebalancing of the social welfare system away from the long-term slackers and towards the recently unemployed would be a very good development.

Fine Gael had a golden opportunity to reform in 2011 and blew it. Made it worse in fact. What makes you think Leo and MM will do it now?

hardybuck

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

So have a top heavy organisation of people in offices unable to perform their full function?

Policing is a young man's game. There's enough senior heads under 50 that can teach them

No you're jumping to conclusions there. They don't have to be senior to not be out chasing lads - and that's the case right now.

blanch152

saabsaab wrote: »

[/B]


It might be back. I'd say that average lifespan is set to decrease in the next while.

Given the number of deaths this year, I do wonder will we see a decrease in life expectancy. As far as I know, there hasn't been a decrease in over 100 years.

LillySV

almostover wrote: »

Firstly FF got the most seats. Secondly we have a PR STV electoral system so it is irrelevant who got the most seats or the most votes. Whatever goverment can come together with an overall majority based on policy agreements is one with a mandate to govern. We're going to get FF/FG/Greens and that's what could be put in place based on the election results. Guessing you voted SF or Soc Dems.....the eternal hurlers from the ditch?

All of the groups you've mentioned are part of the public service. TDs are in a unique position because every 5 years their job is up for review. I've no problem with what they're paid, if their not doing their job we can get rid of them. Shane Ross is a good example.

I'm against bureaucracy and cronyism in all sectors,public and private. But customers in the private sector don't pay for bureaucracy for long. All of us as citizens and taxpayers should demand a more efficient public sector.

I’ve watched fg constantly hit the middle income taxpayer since getting In ... no proper projects have been finished to an acceptable standard ... children’s hospital.... going to cost billions more and take years longer to finish .,supposed bypasses and road improvements throughout the country... all parked up... money flowing out to legal eagles, numerous advisers and consultant pals who d f all other than charge for projects that probably won’t even run yet cost us millions ... housing crisis - no one can afford rent anymore ... what are the govt and their pals doing for the public... nothing . Nama doing cosy deals with pension funds to give the pension funds houses for f all that they can then charge a fortune to the public

And you are happy with all that and think the problem is the ordinary guy on the frontline gettin 20-30 k....