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Public service pay cut?
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Totally agree, the government know this and I think have learned from last times cutbacks.
Sure , I kept my job, as I serve the public and it's needed. But I also stopped spending, mostly in private sector, coffees, lunches, restaurants, home improvements etc.
I think it's called biting off your nose to spite your face. Private sector demands cutbacks, then grand, us public sector are generally a frugal bunch, we can control our spending accordingly.
unfortunately this thinking is still deeply imbedded in society, including amongst our political class, many still havent coped onto this, so dont be surprised to hear 'tightening our belt' rhetoric post covid, if they do, i suspect ffg will be toast for good0 -
NovemberWren wrote: »a swamp Local Authority outside of BAC.
A Fine Gael Mafia town, and their loving partners Sinn Fein and Fianna Fail.
So imagination land then.0 -
NovemberWren wrote: »Have you tried to contact a Local Authority employee lately? by email, email, email and then by, email. Have they ever even answered anyone? And if this Covid is ever over, in some future time; their comfortable excuse will be - that they are "too" busy.
They are probably struggling with the eloquence of your written word and are searching for someone from "swampland" who can string more than 2 sentences together to issue a reply to you.0 -
They are probably struggling with the eloquence of your written word and are searching for someone from "swampland" who can string more than 2 sentences together to issue a reply to you.
The irony of using a number in place of a word while chastising someone about their written word may be lost on you.0 -
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BonnieSituation wrote: »Wow.
That's, well, that's quite something. That's a level of pedantry that I wouldn't have thought was possible in twenty-twenty-one. Wow.
It's 2021:):) That is pretty much standard. After that, depends on the audience:
https://www.scribendi.com/academy/articles/when_to_spell_out_numbers_in_writing.en.html
https://www.dcu.ie/sites/default/files/students_learning/docs/WC_Numbers-in-academic-writing.pdf0 -
It's 2021:):) That is pretty much standard. After that, depends on the audience:
https://www.scribendi.com/academy/articles/when_to_spell_out_numbers_in_writing.en.html
https://www.dcu.ie/sites/default/files/students_learning/docs/WC_Numbers-in-academic-writing.pdf
Are you for real?
Was the obvious joke not obvious enough for you?0 -
NovemberWren wrote: »yeah. that sounds about correct to me. That everyone receives the "Very humble, 1%".
The "1" sounds so very humble. It's when the "%" is added that you might begin to wonder, what exactly is the change. Except maybe some very minor national inflation.
So, the humble "1%" applied to E70,000 is an added E700.00,... and so on.
I'm unsure if you're being sarcastic (it can be quite difficult with the wide range of nutjobs you get on boards) but yes, 1% is quite humble. The median PS pay is about €48k, if I remember correctly. That's a raise of €480 over the year or an extra €9 per week in their pay. By definition, half the workers are getting less than that.NovemberWren wrote: »"carrying the weight and responsibility" - really?
Have you tried to contact a Local Authority employee lately? by email, email, email and then by, email. Have they ever even answered anyone? And if this Covid is ever over, in some future time; their comfortable excuse will be - that they are "too" busy.
They hug on to the Covid excuse, when all around them private building contractors are rapidly building private projects.
Is it glaringly obvious now, that they are mainly a cohort of Bought Votes.
Have you had to work in a hospital in the last year?
Been forced to stand in front of 30 kids sniffling and rubbing their noses?
Been working in a job that forced you to interact with the public on a daily basis with the threat of dying from a new disease hanging over you?
Been taken out of your job and forced to join a new organisation that found themselves shorthanded because of the demands associated with a pandemic?
I'm gonna guess the answer is no, to most if not all of them. So, final question:..........would you do all of the above for an extra two pints per week?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »I'm unsure if you're being sarcastic (it can be quite difficult with the wide range of nutjobs you get on boards) but yes, 1% is quite humble. The median PS pay is about €48k, if I remember correctly. That's a raise of €480 over the year or an extra €9 per week in their pay. By definition, half the workers are getting less than that.
Have you had to work in a hospital in the last year?
Been forced to stand in front of 30 kids sniffling and rubbing their noses?
Been working in a job that forced you to interact with the public on a daily basis with the threat of dying from a new disease hanging over you?
Been taken out of your job and forced to join a new organisation that found themselves shorthanded because of the demands associated with a pandemic?
I'm gonna guess the answer is no, to most if not all of them. So, final question:..........would you do all of the above for an extra two pints per week?
Anyone working or living over the last 18 months have had to run the gauntlet of catching covid. The public sector are not special in that regard some in the PS had to deal with the public some didnt, same goes in the private sector.
A lot of people did do a good job during the pandemic on both sides. No one is arguing this. Its the affordability that has been brought into question.
240Billion in debt
17 Billion deficit last year
lots of companies going to the wall in the private sector.
A very high likelyhood of 6 billion being lost on corporation tax over the next couple of year.
Any increase in taxes will see high earners leave as WFH can now be easily implemented in both the Tech and Pharma industries with the advances of remote working
Add in we will need more for the HSE (yet again)
We will also need a sh1t tonne of dosh to solve the housing problem
We are also borrowing as a country at historically low rates - these will rise as they cannot go any lower than 0%
Can we afford all of this plus PS payrises and the add on effect to pensions.
Once covid is gone the tap of cheap credit will be switched off. Its at this point the IMF/Troika will ask us to get our sh1t together and the tough decisions will have to be made. I can see the current government not touching any of the above issues as they are on the way out.0 -
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fliball123 wrote: »Anyone working or living over the last 18 months have had to run the gauntlet of catching covid. The public sector are not special in that regard some in the PS had to deal with the public some didnt, same goes in the private sector.
There is a world of difference between working in a chipper/supermarket/coffee shop and working in a hospital/school/front facing public counter in a public sector job. There's a huge difference in "running the gauntlet" when your gauntlet is full of confirmed cases versus when its full of possible cases.
How many supermarket employees have been drafted from their regular roles into contact tracing? How many dominos employees share space with the public for hours at a time?
Anybody (from either side) who has had to do this while the alternative is a tax free 350 into your pocket per week deserves to be rewarded, not punished. It is a fcuking disgrace that 15 months ago these people were being applauded as they literally risked their lives to save others and now as we can see the light at the end of the tunnel and their work is mostly in the rearview mirror, that others are clamouring for a paycut for these "essential" public servants.
Eaten bread is soon forgotten. Wait and see what happens when there's a fourth wave next Christmas and everyone expects the nurses to start doing it again for less money. Imagine the chaos they could have caused by calling for a strike last April and demanding more money?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »There is a world of difference between working in a chipper/supermarket/coffee shop and working in a hospital/school/front facing public counter in a public sector job. There's a huge difference in "running the gauntlet" when your gauntlet is full of confirmed cases versus when its full of possible cases.
How many supermarket employees have been drafted from their regular roles into contact tracing? How many dominos employees share space with the public for hours at a time?
Anybody (from either side) who has had to do this while the alternative is a tax free 350 into your pocket per week deserves to be rewarded, not punished. It is a fcuking disgrace that 15 months ago these people were being applauded as they literally risked their lives to save others and now as we can see the light at the end of the tunnel and their work is mostly in the rearview mirror, that others are clamouring for a paycut for these "essential" public servants.
Eaten bread is soon forgotten. Wait and see what happens when there's a fourth wave next Christmas and everyone expects the nurses to start doing it again for less money. Imagine the chaos they could have caused by calling for a strike last April and demanding more money?
So the staff who stacked shelves in the super markets or had lines of people coming up beside them with cash or cards there was no risk for these people??. Regardless of if they knew people had the virus or not they still showed up to work and made sure the food chain (possibly the most important chain in the country) stayed intact. We all need to eat during the pandemic we all may not need medical care. Imagine the chaos they could of caused during the pandemic as well. They sure as hell spent an 8-10 hour shifts in the firing line public facing. To say otherwise is a slight on the people who did this. You sure as hell dont see them asking for an extra 10 days holidays because they did their job. As I say some people in both sectors did do a good job with regards to dealing with having to work through the pandemic
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/hse-says-there-s-intention-to-recognise-role-of-health-staff-during-pandemic-1.4514873
Teachers were not in the class room for the majority of the last year and a half. They did their work via seesaw and other remote techniques and hardly had to deal with positive cases.
The staff in the HSE are the only group who had to work with known cases. That is the nature of working in this area. I would have no bother with giving anyone who was public facing with positive covid cases the payrises.
As for the 350 paid to those in the private sector the government forced these people and companies to stop working the majority wanted to continue working and were FORCED to stop. A good % these companies have hit the wall already and some who may reopen now will never recover from the last year and a half. So dont you worry a lot of them will get their comeuppance as you so eagerly seem to want.
As for Eaten bread yeah you see it all depends on how far you go back. People say payrises or pay restoration. If your like me and remember the gombeen decision to benchmark (twice) per 08 what you guys are getting is a payrise. If you work in the PS its a pay restoration. Its all how its spun same goes with increments are not payrise according to the public sector and the pension levy is not a contribution to a defined benefit.
We can argue the merits of who worked doing what during the pandemic in both sectors. But the point is affordability. You have still not even bothered with arguing the affordability aspect of the situation the country finds itself in and the pay rises and general pay and pensions of public sector employees will have to be looked at going forward if our tax revenues are hit by the list of issues I outlined. As will all areas of spend.0 -
How small should the public sector be fliball?
What jobs do you think the private sector should do in palace of public servants?0 -
fliball123 wrote: »
240Billion in debt - GROSS DEBT end of April = 234.8bn
17 Billion deficit last year - YES
lots of companies going to the wall in the private sector. - IS THERE MUCH SIGN OF THIS HAPPENING SO FAR?
A very high likelyhood of 6 billion being lost on corporation tax over the next couple of year. - THIS IS A GENUINE CHALLENGE FOR US, YES
Any increase in taxes will see high earners leave as WFH can now be easily implemented in both the Tech and Pharma industries with the advances of remote working - Could this be a significant issue?
Add in we will need more for the HSE (yet again) - YES, the overspending on healthcare continues
We will also need a sh1t tonne of dosh to solve the housing problem
We are also borrowing as a country at historically low rates - these will rise as they cannot go any lower than 0% - Bond yields have already risen slightly
Although I don't agree with you on some points, most of your points here are true and fair0 -
fliball123 wrote: »So the staff who stacked shelves in the super markets or had lines of people coming up beside them with cash or cards there was no risk for these people??.
That's not what I said. You're arguing against a point that wasn't made. Have another read, there, and relax with the outrage, please.fliball123 wrote: »Regardless of if they knew people had the virus or not they still showed up to work and made sure the food chain (possibly the most important chain in the country) stayed intact. We all need to eat during the pandemic we all may not need medical care. Imagine the chaos they could of caused during the pandemic as well. They sure as hell spent an 8-10 hour shifts in the firing line public facing.
Again, there's a world of difference between sitting at a till or stacking shelves and being exposed to people who MAY have the disease for seconds/minutes at a time and emptying bedpans/giving primary healthcare to people who DEFINITELY HAVE the disease......keeping in mind also that people have been told to stay home if they DO have it, so it's even more unlikely they'll present themselves in supermarkets if they do.fliball123 wrote: »To say otherwise is a slight on the people who did this. You sure as hell dont see them asking for an extra 10 days holidays because they did their job. As I say some people in both sectors did do a good job with regards to dealing with having to work through the pandemic
I haven't said otherwise.........and I agree. You're taking me up wrong, but my point is aligned with your own. If people were clamouring for Dunnes or Tesco or Aldi to slash their workers' pay and conditions, I'd be on here saying the same thing.fliball123 wrote: »As for Eaten bread yeah you see it all depends on how far you go back. People say payrises or pay restoration. If your like me and remember the gombeen decision to benchmark (twice) per 08 what you guys are getting is a payrise. If you work in the PS its a pay restoration. Its all how its spun same goes with increments are not payrise according to the public sector and the pension levy is not a contribution to a defined benefit.
Plenty of people claimed that the cuts after the crash weren't cuts. They were.
Plenty claimed that the abolition of certain perks and allowances weren't cuts. They were.
When it came time to restore those cuts back to the previous levels, those same people claimed it was not a restoration, but a pay rise. It was not.
Those are the facts of the matter. Getting your pay reduced by between 5 and 20% is a paycut, no matter what way you look at it. Having it restored to those levels after a DECADE of misery is not a raise, it is a restoration......and that's before we get into inflation etc. It's not even a FULL restoration. No mention of the hours of work being restored, nor the reinstatement of other benefits that were removed out of spite and not for any real financial reasons.fliball123 wrote: »We can argue the merits of who worked doing what during the pandemic in both sectors. But the point is affordability. You have still not even bothered with arguing the affordability aspect of the situation the country finds itself in and the pay rises and general pay and pensions of public sector employees will have to be looked at going forward if our tax revenues are hit by the list of issues I outlined. As will all areas of spend.
I have. I spoke about servicing the debt. If you (meaning Ireland) are comfortably able to service those debts, then there's no problem with affording increased expenditure in other areas.
You made up a load of rubbish about corporation tax and cheap credit drying up and having to borrow to fund the housing crisis, none of which are guarantees. You're ignoring the fact that, on an international scale, it is BETTER to be in debt and using borrowed money to improve the fortunes of the country than it is to be debt free and not have any cashflow to fund the projects you deem worthwhile.0 -
BonnieSituation wrote: »How small should the public sector be fliball?
What jobs do you think the private sector should do in palace of public servants?
We will probably need more workers in the PS going forward our population has grown by 1/2 a million in the last decade.
But the dynamics have changed with regards to affordability with the issues I have listed.
Back per 08 the private sector were on average earning more than their public sector counter parts, like the majority of all countries all over the world and which is why the hair brained scheme of benchmarking was done twice to bring public sector pay up to meet the private sector. Fast Forward to 2021 after 2 rounds of benchmarking and a crash in 08 that decimated the private sector we now have the public sector paid well over 30% more these days then their private sector counterparts. If we compare to our nearest neighbour the UK the private sector are still ahead of their private sector counter part by .3%
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/private-sector-pay-rising-faster-than-public-sector-but-wages-are-still-lower-38155326.html
now they are getting 3 payrises at a time where a lot of private sector jobs will not be coming back.0 -
Although I don't agree with you on some points, most of your points here are true and fair
240billion was the projected debt by the end of the year. As for people who can use remote working environments to relocate will this be an issue with regards to an eroding tax base. I work with 8 other lads all were based in Dublin. 2 has gone back home (to Poland and Brazil) as they can do his job from there. It means the taxes our company and these employees would of paid has gone down as well as them not spending in Ireland either so the knock on for VAT etc. I know its a small sample size but you can bet your a$$ that people who can work remotely will do so and will get out of Ireland if taxes increase any more than they are at and the government who ever is in when the sh1t hits the fan and its coming will not get away with trying to engineer another direct tax as can be seen by the water charges or by additional taxes on working as they already got away with one with the USC (a supposed temporary tax at the time).
The lad in Brazil keeps sending me videos of him in the sunshine working away and telling me I am crazy for not heading to somewhere with a better climate.
As for private companies going to the wall. Already 2 banks are pulling out and high profile companies like car phone warehouse/Debinhams/Arcadia among others have already hit the skids during the lockdown. I think the perfect storm of the pandemic, Brexit , buying online will hit a lot of the traditional walk-in stores around the country and will lead to more job losses.
https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2018/1016/1003447-why-do-so-many-shops-going-out-of-business/
https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-40046600.html0 -
fliball123 wrote: »Fast Forward to 2021 after 2 rounds of benchmarking and a crash in 08 that decimated the private sector we now have the public sector paid well over 30% more these days then their private sector counterparts. If we compare to our nearest neighbour the UK the private sector are still ahead of their private sector counter part by .3%
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/private-sector-pay-rising-faster-than-public-sector-but-wages-are-still-lower-38155326.html
The bit in bold is wrong and demonstrates your lack of reading comprehension again. Have another read of the link you posted, try to see the differences between what you wrote and what the article says.
Here's a clue: The word "counterparts" doesn't appear anywhere in the article. It uses average pay as the yardstick to measure everything, but anybody with any mental acuity knows that using averages is simplistic, and doesn't paint the real picture.
How much does the average Google employee earn?
And how much does the average Supermacs employee earn?
Why is the discrepancy so large, and why don't we feel that this is unfair that one earns multiples of the other? Because we recognise that the types of work are completely different and we cannot accurately compare them.
But that goes out the window when we're talking about the Public Service. People comparing Guards' wages and people who work in Starbucks claiming they shouldn't be paid as much. Gimme a break.
There is very little direct comparison between the types of work carried out by the Public sector vs the private sector.........and that's before we get into other factors, such as length of service, quality of work, level of qualifications etc.
Trying to compare the two is ridiculous. Misunderstanding what that comparison actually means, and using it as a stick with which to beat the PS workers and claim they're being paid too much is beyond retarded.0 -
In other words, the same old Indo bullshít got trotted out yet again. :rolleyes:
© 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd
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Deleted User wrote: »That's not what I said. You're arguing against a point that wasn't made. Have another read, there, and relax with the outrage, please.
Again, there's a world of difference between sitting at a till or stacking shelves and being exposed to people who MAY have the disease for seconds/minutes at a time and emptying bedpans/giving primary healthcare to people who DEFINITELY HAVE the disease......keeping in mind also that people have been told to stay home if they DO have it, so it's even more unlikely they'll present themselves in supermarkets if they do.
I haven't said otherwise.........and I agree. You're taking me up wrong, but my point is aligned with your own. If people were clamouring for Dunnes or Tesco or Aldi to slash their workers' pay and conditions, I'd be on here saying the same thing.
Plenty of people claimed that the cuts after the crash weren't cuts. They were.
Plenty claimed that the abolition of certain perks and allowances weren't cuts. They were.
When it came time to restore those cuts back to the previous levels, those same people claimed it was not a restoration, but a pay rise. It was not.
Those are the facts of the matter. Getting your pay reduced by between 5 and 20% is a paycut, no matter what way you look at it. Having it restored to those levels after a DECADE of misery is not a raise, it is a restoration......and that's before we get into inflation etc. It's not even a FULL restoration. No mention of the hours of work being restored, nor the reinstatement of other benefits that were removed out of spite and not for any real financial reasons.
I have. I spoke about servicing the debt. If you (meaning Ireland) are comfortably able to service those debts, then there's no problem with affording increased expenditure in other areas.
You made up a load of rubbish about corporation tax and cheap credit drying up and having to borrow to fund the housing crisis, none of which are guarantees. You're ignoring the fact that, on an international scale, it is BETTER to be in debt and using borrowed money to improve the fortunes of the country than it is to be debt free and not have any cashflow to fund the projects you deem worthwhile.
I never said anything about cutting PS pay I have been arguing payrises shouldnt be paid until the true extent of our economy can be gauged after covid.
I have said that there will come a breaking point in the future like after 08 were our lenders will look at the 30%+ pay gap between public and private sector, along with what we spend on welfare and ask us to get our house in order with what we are spending. Its not just Public sector spend, our welfare spend is off the charts as well. As government after government instead of dealing with issues choose to buy votes from vested interest groups.
I wasnt in outrage at all. I thought I was fairly measured.
So can I spin this and say lets go back to pre benchmarking and say the cuts the public sector took in 08 was a pay restoration to before benchmarking?? As I say its all how it is spun. Your getting pay rises not restoration (thats how I see it) at the moment. One of the cuts was a contribution to your pension which is also spun as a cut as well.
So when do I get my USC temporary tax back in my pocket?? answers on a post card. Where is my pay restoration? What about the 400k people who lost their job during the last crisis you seem to forget the PS was largely cushioned in the last recession not one forced redundancy to a full time PS employee.
So you think the corporation tax is made up there are numerous reports of losing anywhere from 2 to 6 Billion a year
https://www.thejournal.ie/corporation-tax-loss-ireland-2-4845522-Oct2019/
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/corporation-tax-shock-could-leave-6bn-hole-in-public-finances-1.4044417
https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0114/1189720-changes-to-corporate-tax-rules-will-reduce-revenue/
Do you also think we will be able to borrow at near zero interest rates on the never never. We are in a pandemic hense the low interest rates these will rise once covid is gone. They cant go much lower.
We are not better in debt or running a 17billion deficit. I dont see why a government should be allowed borrow at such rates and have things like the housing crisis going on at the same time. We had our finances back turning a profit pre-covid so like I say if we can get back there thats where we need to be. So just to put in context. We are in a pandemic (hopefully coming to the end of it) we are more in debt and have as much of a deficit as 08. Lets see how long the troika let us get away with the current borrowing before they come back into town.
Look if the economy takes off like a rocket and we are back to pre-covid employment rates as well as us not losing 6billion a year on our corporation taxes and we no longer have to borrow as a country I have no bother with people in the ps getting payrises who deserve them.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »The bit in bold is wrong and demonstrates your lack of reading comprehension again. Have another read of the link you posted, try to see the differences between what you wrote and what the article says.
Here's a clue: The word "counterparts" doesn't appear anywhere in the article. It uses average pay as the yardstick to measure everything, but anybody with any mental acuity knows that using averages is simplistic, and doesn't paint the real picture.
How much does the average Google employee earn?
And how much does the average Supermacs employee earn?
Why is the discrepancy so large, and why don't we feel that this is unfair that one earns multiples of the other? Because we recognise that the types of work are completely different and we cannot accurately compare them.
But that goes out the window when we're talking about the Public Service. People comparing Guards' wages and people who work in Starbucks claiming they shouldn't be paid as much. Gimme a break.
There is very little direct comparison between the types of work carried out by the Public sector vs the private sector.........and that's before we get into other factors, such as length of service, quality of work, level of qualifications etc.
Trying to compare the two is ridiculous. Misunderstanding what that comparison actually means, and using it as a stick with which to beat the PS workers and claim they're being paid too much is beyond retarded.
Yet the private and public sector were compared (twice) when it suited back before the last crash pre-08 funny how that works isnt it. It seems the comparison can only be made when the people doing the exercise are gaining from the comparison.
If the public sectors line of argument is that the sectors cannot be compared then banchmarking was a fraud and as a tax payer I would kindly ask that ps pay and pensions be cut by the amount given in the 2 rounds of bench marking. Then I will agree they cant be compared.
https://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/benchmark.pdf0 -
fliball123 wrote: »I never said anything about cutting PS pay I have been arguing payrises shouldnt be paid until the true extent of our economy can be gauged after covid.
I have said that there will come a breaking point in the future like after 08 were our lenders will look at the 30%+ pay gap between public and private sector, along with what we spend on welfare and ask us to get our house in order with what we are spending. Its not just Public sector spend, our welfare spend is off the charts as well. As government after government instead of dealing with issues choose to buy votes from vested interest groups.
I wasnt in outrage at all. I thought I was fairly measured.
Fair enough points above, in the most part. You're still banging on about this 30% difference, though, that's basically a made up figure that someone in the Indo pulled out of their hole.
Ask yourself this: How much is an entry level Garda paid. And how much is a private sector Garda paid? Oh, there's no such thing as a private Garda? How about a private Planning Inspector? Or a train driver? Or a Chief Economist?
How can you compare something to another thing that literally doesn't exist? How can you be overpaid in a job which had no valid counterpart?fliball123 wrote: »So can I spin this and say lets go back to pre benchmarking and say the cuts the public sector took in 08 was a pay restoration to before benchmarking?? As I say its all how it is spun. Your getting pay rises not restoration (thats how I see it) at the moment. One of the cuts was a contribution to your pension which is also spun as a cut as well.
You could, but you'd be breaking the law. A CO starting salary in 2005 was just over €20k. With the now mandatory 40hr week, that's only €9.70 per hour so you'd end up in court. The whole point of benchmarking was to encourage people to apply for jobs that others didn't want, because the pay was so low. There was mad money to be made in the private sector. Anybody with any cop on or ambition would balk at the wages being paid (€380 per week when labourers were clearing €800+ on sites?). I joined in 2003 and I was told by two of the lads I needed my head checked, and should get into the building trade. I opted for the better job security for lower wages, thanks. They're both living in Australia now because they had to leave the country and are dying to get back home.fliball123 wrote: »So when do I get my USC temporary tax back in my pocket?? answers on a post card. Where is my pay restoration? What about the 400k people who lost their job during the last crisis you seem to forget the PS was largely cushioned in the last recession not one forced redundancy to a full time PS employee.
You get it back when I do. Public workers get hit with that as well, chief. Also, this isn't a zero sum game. Would you have preferred that 400k public employees lost their job as well? How many should have been forced to retire? and what state would the public services be if they'd been chopped off at the knees in 2008? You're also forgetting that the crash was caused by the private sector. If you can't do the time......fliball123 wrote: »So you think the corporation tax is made up there are numerous reports of losing anywhere from 2 to 6 Billion a year
Yep, pure conjecture. It even says so in each of your first two links......THE PUBLIC PURSE could lose between €1 billion and €6 billion a yearThis could result in a permanent budgetary gap of €6 billion by 2021 relative to current expectations.
The third one says....
...............................so, well short of the €6bn you're bandying about. Even just now you doubled down and revised your claim from €6 billion down to "between 2 to 6 billion" when the sources you posted contradict those claims.between €800m and €2 billion a year.fliball123 wrote: »Do you also think we will be able to borrow at near zero interest rates on the never never. We are in a pandemic hense the low interest rates these will rise once covid is gone. They cant go much lower.
Again, the interest rates don't matter too much as long as you can service the debt. You're surmising that these rates are going to shoot up once Covid disappears (which may never happen, but anyway). We're not going back to the TROIKA/IMF level of interest any time soon.fliball123 wrote: »We are not better in debt or running a 17billion deficit. I dont see why a government should be allowed borrow at such rates and have things like the housing crisis going on at the same time. We had our finances back turning a profit pre-covid so like I say if we can get back there thats where we need to be. So just to put in context. We are in a pandemic (hopefully coming to the end of it) we are more in debt and have as much of a deficit as 08. Lets see how long the troika let us get away with the current borrowing before they come back into town.
This entire paragraph demonstrates an astounding lack of knowledge of how economics and international finances operate. You are much better off being in debt and being able to service that debt, than being debt free and having no cash to run the place.0 -
fliball123 wrote: »Yet the private and public sector were compared (twice) when it suited back before the last crash pre-08 funny how that works isnt it. It seems the comparison can only be made when the people doing the exercise are gaining from the comparison.
If the public sectors line of argument is that the sectors cannot be compared then banchmarking was a fraud and as a tax payer I would kindly ask that ps pay and pensions be cut by the amount given in the 2 rounds of bench marking. Then I will agree they cant be compared.
That's partly the point being made here. There are a huge cohort of PS staff who are still on less money than they were in 2008, and working longer hours, with fewer staff to assist them.
How much have your wages gone up since 2008, out of interest?0 -
fliball123 wrote: »Yet the private and public sector were compared (twice) when it suited back before the last crash pre-08 funny how that works isnt it. It seems the comparison can only be made when the people doing the exercise are gaining from the comparison.
If the public sectors line of argument is that the sectors cannot be compared then banchmarking was a fraud and as a tax payer I would kindly ask that ps pay and pensions be cut by the amount given in the 2 rounds of bench marking. Then I will agree they cant be compared.
https://www.ictu.ie/download/pdf/benchmark.pdfDeleted User wrote: »Fair enough points above, in the most part. You're still banging on about this 30% difference, though, that's basically a made up figure that someone in the Indo pulled out of their hole.
Ask yourself this: How much is an entry level Garda paid. And how much is a private sector Garda paid? Oh, there's no such thing as a private Garda? How about a private Planning Inspector? Or a train driver? Or a Chief Economist?
How can you compare something to another thing that literally doesn't exist? How can you be overpaid in a job which had no valid counterpart?
You could, but you'd be breaking the law. A CO starting salary in 2005 was just over €20k. With the now mandatory 40hr week, that's only €9.70 per hour so you'd end up in court. The whole point of benchmarking was to encourage people to apply for jobs that others didn't want, because the pay was so low. There was mad money to be made in the private sector. Anybody with any cop on or ambition would balk at the wages being paid (€380 per week when labourers were clearing €800+ on sites?). I joined in 2003 and I was told by two of the lads I needed my head checked, and should get into the building trade. I opted for the better job security for lower wages, thanks. They're both living in Australia now because they had to leave the country and are dying to get back home.
You get it back when I do. Public workers get hit with that as well, chief. Also, this isn't a zero sum game. Would you have preferred that 400k public employees lost their job as well? How many should have been forced to retire? and what state would the public services be if they'd been chopped off at the knees in 2008? You're also forgetting that the crash was caused by the private sector. If you can't do the time......
Yep, pure conjecture. It even says so in each of your first two links......
The third one says....
...............................so, well short of the €6bn you're bandying about. Even just now you doubled down and revised your claim from €6 billion down to "between 2 to 6 billion" when the sources you posted contradict those claims.
Again, the interest rates don't matter too much as long as you can service the debt. You're surmising that these rates are going to shoot up once Covid disappears (which may never happen, but anyway). We're not going back to the TROIKA/IMF level of interest any time soon.
This entire paragraph demonstrates an astounding lack of knowledge of how economics and international finances operate. You are much better off being in debt and being able to service that debt, than being debt free and having no cash to run the place.
I refer you to my previous post about the public / private sector comparison debate. As for lack of knowledge about the economy. You could be a blind man and still be able to see that we cant sustain the current spend/debt levels we will be a lot more in debt than in 08, with the potential of losing some corporation tax (akin to what happened when the stamp duty tax income stream that disappeared back in 08) along with different forces at work this time that mean working from home no longer means not just working away from the office, you don't have to be in the country. We are borrowing at the same rate than in 08 and at present the interest rate is lower. (the only upside currently)
We are already the third most indebted country in the world. Lets see if we move up the ranks to 2nd or why not go for fecking gold while we are at it, when our housing crisis needs money (billions), HSE needs more money (billions), more public sector payrises (billions) and sure lets see if the ECB will lend us cash at near zero interest rates for the never never. Wait till the debt has to be rolled over on a higher interest rate which is coming down the track. Its you who doesn't understand how badly off we are and its like head in the sand stuff lets give payrises while all of the above has to be sorted out.
You dont have to be an economist to see if one or a combination of the above don't go our way the troika will be back in putting manners back on us.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »That's partly the point being made here. There are a huge cohort of PS staff who are still on less money than they were in 2008, and working longer hours, with fewer staff to assist them.
How much have your wages gone up since 2008, out of interest?
I took a cut in 09 and got about 1/4 of it back in 2015. my company barely made any profit in those years. So they couldn't pay payrises.0 -
fliball123 wrote: »I took a cut in 09 and got about 1/4 of it back in 2015. my company barely made any profit in those years. So they couldn't pay payrises.
Mine gave a 10% cut in 2009.
Now Im probably up about 50% on what I was earning then. Same position, same rank. Didnt get a raise or a bonus this years though which is annoying, but understandable.0 -
Mine gave a 10% cut in 2009.
Now Im probably up about 50% on what I was earning then. Same position, same rank. Didnt get a raise or a bonus this years though which is annoying, but understandable.
yeah mine was 15% it was that or take statutory redundancy and join the dole queue or book a flight to somewhere else at the time. I made the decision to stay as I had a parent who was diagnosed as being terminally ill back then and wanted to stay around until they had gone. He lingered for another 5/6 years so by that time the state of the country had changed and I got the benefit of working from home back in 2015 which really helped with raising my 2 kids.
Contrary to some here in the PS there are some others in the private sector on the lower end of wage spectrum.0 -
fliball123 wrote: »yeah mine was 15% it was that or take statutory redundancy and join the dole queue or book a flight to somewhere else at the time. I made the decision to stay as I had a parent who was diagnosed as being terminally ill back then and wanted to stay around until they had gone. He lingered for another 5/6 years so by that time the state of the country had changed and I got the benefit of working from home back in 2015 which really helped with raising my 2 kids.
Contrary to some here in the PS there are some others in the private sector on the lower end of wage spectrum.
In general workers in the public sector have higher qualifications. So why would it be any surprise that someone delivering pizzas or flipping burgers are on the lower end!0 -
Mine gave a 10% cut in 2009.
Now Im probably up about 50% on what I was earning then. Same position, same rank. Didnt get a raise or a bonus this years though which is annoying, but understandable.
Imagine how annoying it would be if you only got back about 8% of that 10% cut.fliball123 wrote: »yeah mine was 15% it was that or take statutory redundancy and join the dole queue or book a flight to somewhere else at the time. I made the decision to stay as I had a parent who was diagnosed as being terminally ill back then and wanted to stay around until they had gone. He lingered for another 5/6 years so by that time the state of the country had changed and I got the benefit of working from home back in 2015 which really helped with raising my 2 kids.
Contrary to some here in the PS there are some others in the private sector on the lower end of wage spectrum.
There are plenty in the PS on low wages, trust me.
You are a model for a civil service position with their vastly superior approach to betterment of work/life balance, shorter working year scheme, flexi time etc.
My condolences on your loss.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Imagine how annoying it would be if you only got back about 8% of that 10% cut.
There are plenty in the PS on low wages, trust me.
You are a model for a civil service position with their vastly superior approach to betterment of work/life balance, shorter working year scheme, flexi time etc.
My condolences on your loss.
Im with you on this.
It saddens me the way Irish people who think someone else has something better than what they have immediately want it taken off them. Even if they are wrong about it. Its a trait that is very unique to Ireland.0
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