Public service pay cut?

fliball123

Treppen wrote: »

In general workers in the public sector have higher qualifications. So why would it be any surprise that someone delivering pizzas or flipping burgers are on the lower end!

Its a surprise as its not the norm globally that the public sector wage is on average more than the private sector and over 30% more is just barmy. Not to mention 20 years ago the public sector were behind the private sector so that has been some turn around in 20 odd years.

jimwallace197

Treppen wrote: »

In general workers in the public sector have higher qualifications. So why would it be any surprise that someone delivering pizzas or flipping burgers are on the lower end!

Do you have any source for this? This is always the same tired line trotted out by the public sector to justify the ridiculous gap in wages between private & public sector.

Last time I checked, there was a serious amount of admin/clerical/ staff in the HSE amongst many other areas of the PS. You don't need to have particularly high qualifications to get positions such as these.

Not particularly difficult qualification wise to become a gard either. You wouldn't meet many with degrees or masters. More of a case of who you know with them.

Nurses & teachers, fairly bog standard degrees, yes some will have masters but that's the exception rather than the rule. Many people have degree's nowadays.

So please tell us whats so special about the public sector that will justify their obscene wages and pensions at the expense of ordinary private sector full time working citizens.

Also, those people often delivering pizzas or flipping burgers in the private sector as you like to put it usually are foreigners who speak numerous languages and often have degrees & masters from their own country that would put many of our so called highly qualified public sector servants to shame.

BonnieSituation

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Do you have any source for this? This is always the same tired line trotted out by the public sector to justify the ridiculous gap in wages between private & public sector.

Last time I checked, there was a serious amount of admin/clerical/ staff in the HSE amongst many other areas of the PS. You don't need to have particularly high qualifications to get positions such as these.

Not particularly difficult qualification wise to become a gard either. You wouldn't meet many with degrees or masters. More of a case of who you know with them.

Nurses & teachers, fairly bog standard degrees, yes some will have masters but that's the exception rather than the rule. Many people have degree's nowadays.

So please tell us whats so special about the public sector that will justify their obscene wages and pensions at the expense of ordinary private sector full time working citizens.

Also, those people often delivering pizzas or flipping burgers in the private sector as you like to put it usually are foreigners who speak numerous languages and often have degrees & masters from their own country that would put many of our so called highly qualified public sector servants to shame.

They should get a job in the public sector then and show them what's what.

growleaves

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Do you have any source for this? This is always the same tired line trotted out by the public sector to justify the ridiculous gap in wages between private & public sector.

Last time I checked, there was a serious amount of admin/clerical/ staff in the HSE amongst many other areas of the PS. You don't need to have particularly high qualifications to get positions such as these.

Not particularly difficult qualification wise to become a gard either. You wouldn't meet many with degrees or masters. More of a case of who you know with them.

Nurses & teachers, fairly bog standard degrees, yes some will have masters but that's the exception rather than the rule. Many people have degree's nowadays.

So please tell us whats so special about the public sector that will justify their obscene wages and pensions at the expense of ordinary private sector full time working citizens.

There are a lot of competition for these roles far as I know.

The wages of most of these positions aren't obscene as against consumer prices and the cost of living (including housing).

Private sector workers have gotten played by their employers completely imo. Boasting about not being in a trade union (the emptiest boast of all time?), taking wage cuts left and right and calling it the will of 'impersonal market forces'. Uh huh. Even as an artificial labour surplus is magic'd in existence (oh wait I forgot that's because surplus workers do the jobs Americans Irish won't do).

Of course an individual in the private sector can do quite well running a soft auction during their salary negotiation.

Start-ups can do well if they ignore large chunks of conventional business advice (impossible for the many people who take everything at face value and get offended when asked not to.)

In the aggregate though many private sector workers get a raw deal then demand wage cuts across the board to make themselves feel better.

As discussed in the covid forums, booming industries like pharma and medical devices were trying to introduce wage cuts last year even as they were seeing their profits climb into the stratosphere.

runawaybishop

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Do you have any source for this? This is always the same tired line trotted out by the public sector to justify the ridiculous gap in wages between private & public sector.

Last time I checked, there was a serious amount of admin/clerical/ staff in the HSE amongst many other areas of the PS. You don't need to have particularly high qualifications to get positions such as these.

Not particularly difficult qualification wise to become a gard either. You wouldn't meet many with degrees or masters. More of a case of who you know with them.

Nurses & teachers, fairly bog standard degrees, yes some will have masters but that's the exception rather than the rule. Many people have degree's nowadays.

So please tell us whats so special about the public sector that will justify their obscene wages and pensions at the expense of ordinary private sector full time working citizens.

Also, those people often delivering pizzas or flipping burgers in the private sector as you like to put it usually are foreigners who speak numerous languages and often have degrees & masters from their own country that would put many of our so called highly qualified public sector servants to shame.

Every single gardai will have a qualification, as will every single nurse and every single teacher. On average, the PS employs more people with qualifications than the private sector. Info available from CSO if you can be bothered to educate yourself.

The wages are also hardly obscene, in fact they are massively lagging behind the private sector when you compare like for like. Clerical officers start on 24k, hardly a fortune.

Happily the public sector does not just pay minimum wage, doesn't employ people on 0 hour contracts and publishes all its employees earnings. Same cant be said for the private sector.

Treppen

fliball123 wrote: »

Its a surprise as its not the norm globally that the public sector wage is on average more than the private sector and over 30% more is just barmy. Not to mention 20 years ago the public sector were behind the private sector so that has been some turn around in 20 odd years.

Logic would tell you qualifications bring more money. Look at most in public sector... Middle class.

In saying that I worked with a few working class folk in public sector (hospital porters / domestics / laundry / kitchen) and they were on great money and pension (that was back a couple of decades though) but the work was no walk in the park and they did work hard.

Private sector 20 years ago was the tech pharma boom and American multinationals, which fueled building boom + many more private sector services.

Hotblack Desiato

Treppen wrote: »

domestics / laundry / kitchen

outsourced now to private sector on minimum wage or not much more

AndrewJRenko

Treppen wrote: »

Logic would tell you qualifications bring more money. Look at most in public sector... Middle class.

In saying that I worked with a few working class folk in public sector (hospital porters / domestics / laundry / kitchen) and they were on great money and pension (that was back a couple of decades though) but the work was no walk in the park and they did work hard.

Public sector was very notable for giving a chance to smart people who didn't have the financial resources or family support to go through traditional university degree courses. People got in at lower grades, were supported to educated themselves through evening and part-time courses, and climbed the latter. It wasn't unusual to meet people with strong Dub working class accents operating at very senior level.

It seems to be a it less of an issue now with broader access to third level.

Treppen

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

outsourced now to private sector on minimum wage or not much more

..and I'm sure the public sector bashers on here are delighted with that outcome, solidarity for their private sector employees and all that :pac:

fliball123

Treppen wrote: »

Logic would tell you qualifications bring more money. Look at most in public sector... Middle class.

In saying that I worked with a few working class folk in public sector (hospital porters / domestics / laundry / kitchen) and they were on great money and pension (that was back a couple of decades though) but the work was no walk in the park and they did work hard.

Private sector 20 years ago was the tech pharma boom and American multinationals, which fueled building boom + many more private sector services.

So where is the logic when looking at other countries all over the globe the same disparity and the amount of the disparity between the two sectors in pay is not seen throughout the rest of the world when it comes to public and private sector pay, your theory would hold weight if it was the world wide norm but its not. So logic would tell me that the 30%+ disparity means that what we pay for our public sector employees is us overpaying

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

So logic would tell me that the 30%+ disparity means that what we pay for our public sector employees is us overpaying

Lower paid PS are slightly overpaid, relative to the private sector.

Higher paid PS are underpaid, relative to the private sector.


https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/publicprivatesectorpaydifferential/

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

So logic would tell me that the 30%+ disparity means that what we pay for our public sector employees is us overpaying

There is no 30% disparity.



https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

Results from the OLS Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential ranging from 6.8% in 2015 to -0.3% in 2018, for the model which includes size of enterprise as a determining factor.

Results for the OLS model which deducts the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential ranging from 1.4% to -3.4%. See Table 4.1.

Summary results from the Quantile Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential in 2018 ranging from 12.7% at the 10th percentile to -17.3% at the 90th percentile for the model which deducts the pension levy and includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. See Figure 4.1 and Table 8.8.

The corresponding model which makes no adjustment for the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential in 2018 ranging from 17.6% at the 10th percentile to -13.7% at the 90th percentile. See Table 8.4.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

There is no 30% disparity.



https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

Results from the OLS Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential ranging from 6.8% in 2015 to -0.3% in 2018, for the model which includes size of enterprise as a determining factor.

Results for the OLS model which deducts the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential ranging from 1.4% to -3.4%. See Table 4.1.

Summary results from the Quantile Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential in 2018 ranging from 12.7% at the 10th percentile to -17.3% at the 90th percentile for the model which deducts the pension levy and includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. See Figure 4.1 and Table 8.8.

The corresponding model which makes no adjustment for the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential in 2018 ranging from 17.6% at the 10th percentile to -13.7% at the 90th percentile. See Table 8.4.

It also doesnt take into account pensions or other perks that public sector employees are afforded.

The weekly figures here still has the differential of 913 for public sector vs 669 for the private sector

So 27% (without taking pensions or other perks into the equation)

Brief summary here
http://www.joe.ie/news/average-weekly-earnings-ireland-589751

Detailed analysis here

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq42016finalq12017preliminaryestimates/

Hotblack Desiato

Tell me what these "other perks" are please?

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Tell me what these "other perks" are please?

Go ask someone who's livelihood was cut off by covid. If you have the balls to be so glib and play dumb when faced with someone who spent the last year on welfare that is. Or someone who spent the recession years on welfare.

fliball123

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Tell me what these "other perks" are please?

Well on top of guaranteed pension, pay increments and job security

here is a list from 2012. I know there was an attempt to get rid of some when we were in the sh1tter back after the last crash but the government didnt seem to be able to get rid of many

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/list-of-public-service-allowances-1.742417

Brendan Howler Howlin made a teeny weeny dent in them

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/75m-joke-12-public-sector-perks-the-government-wont-cut-28811725.html

Be interesting how many are still existing in 2021 I know some may have been negotiated away after 2012.

growleaves

fliball123 wrote: »

Well on top of guaranteed pension, pay increments and job security

here is a list from 2012. I know there was an attempt to get rid of some when we were in the sh1tter back after the last crash but the government didnt seem to be able to get rid of many

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/list-of-public-service-allowances-1.742417

How would job insecurity in the PS enhance society or your personal situation?

You're not going to get a tax refund if they crash the standard of living for public workers.

We should be putting the squeeze on private employers to introduce pay increments, pensions etc. Some MNCs in Ireland have pay increments for permanent employees.

fliball123

growleaves wrote: »

How would job insecurity in the PS enhance society or your personal situation?

You're not going to get a tax refund if they crash the standard of living for public workers.

We should be putting the squeeze on private employers to introduce pay increments, pensions etc. Some MNCs in Ireland have pay increments for permanent employees.

I was asked what are some of the benefits and job security is one and it was this benefit that was used back in the 80s/90s to employ PS employees when their pay was a lot less than those working in the private sector.

Some MNCs do have increments but the majority of private sector employees do not.

You see this is where your so wrong private companies in the majority of cases cannot afford increments/payrises/penisons and they sure as hell cannot borrow 17Billion a year or go 240Billion in debt to keep the lights on. This is the reality that the bog standard public sector employee is cushioned from

LillySV

salonfire wrote: »

Go ask someone who's livelihood was cut off by covid. If you have the balls to be so glib and play dumb when faced with someone who spent the last year on welfare that is. Or someone who spent the recession years on welfare.

On 350 while many people were going to work for the same or barely more ... go cry to someone else ... if you not happy with your situation and think the civil service is great, handy and well paid , then go apply for job in it

I’m sick to the teeth of the continuous attempts by govt and our public media to create a rift between the public and private workers throughout the years... and watching fools fall for it.

When you see the Great average pay for a ps worker, they have included your politicians, tds and senators pay, which distorts the true figure .

The biggest waste of money used up by the state anyways is this public private ventures....private consultants, legal eagles etc get paid millions for very little . Look at the all the special advisors the tds have now hired themselves .... basically spin doctors and hr gurus... a joke! And then look at the minister for health bein offered a fortune more for a job that’s supposed to be filled on a benchmarked salary... why is he offered more ? They couldn’t fill the it post in Hse for over a year as they offered a paltry salary for such a demanding role... yet offer the same increase to the minister for nothing


Get thick with your govt for the ridiculous mess goin on at present ... not your local clerical officer on 400 a week ...

growleaves

fliball123 wrote: »

I was asked what are some of the benefits and job security is one and it was this benefit that was used back in the 80s/90s to employ PS employees when their pay was a lot less than those working in the private sector.

Some MNCs do have increments but the majority of private sector employees do not.

You see this is where your so wrong private companies in the majority of cases cannot afford increments/payrises/penisons and they sure as hell cannot borrow 17Billion a year or go 240Billion in debt to keep the lights on. This is the reality that the bog standard public sector employee is cushioned from

That is not true. I don't understand how these companies can get away with putting on the poor mouth. Its their negotiating position which is fine but why are people on the receiving end of this spin running with it? Real inflation is massive, especially asset inflation (i.e. the shares of any publicly floated company) yet supposedly the only thing which can't keep up with inflation is wages, which must stagnate or even go backwards. Consumer prices up, asset prices up, wages down.. sorry there's no money, it all disappeared down a black hole.

But yeah lets bid down wages across the board then perhaps we can feel better about our losing hand.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

You see this is where your so wrong private companies in the majority of cases cannot afford increments/payrises/penisons and they sure as hell cannot borrow 17Billion a year or go 240Billion in debt to keep the lights on. This is the reality that the bog standard public sector employee is cushioned from

Perhaps off-topic, but I often think that many firms can well afford to contribute to staff pensions, but they prefer higher profits for the owners.

I read the Business section of Sunday newspapers, plenty of firms making plenty of profit.

There is a pub chain in Ireland with 80% gross margins on beer. Business plans for new pubs in Dublin include plans for 30% net margins.

Landlords are charging huge rents, so they can well afford to contribute to staff pensions.

Well over 50% of all the income generated in Ireland is profit.

I think auto-enrolment, and firms contributing, should start sooner rather than later.

Hotblack Desiato

salonfire wrote: »

Go ask someone who's livelihood was cut off by covid. If you have the balls to be so glib and play dumb when faced with someone who spent the last year on welfare that is. Or someone who spent the recession years on welfare.

It's a genuine question, they have totally failed to back up their other claims but there is always hope.

The aggression in your post speaks volumes.

Oh and the public sector was not responsible for either the virus, or the 2007-onwards financial crash

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Well on top of guaranteed pension, pay increments and job security

Yes, the PS pensions are DB pensions, which is good.

But note, the new Single PS pension scheme since 2013, is less generous than previous schemes.

I think the solution is for all workers to have a work pension.

JimmyVik

So if im getting the mood of this thread right.
All of us private sector workers will not be happy until public sector workers are
a) taxed more.
b) have their pensions removed
c) are fired.

As a private sector worker I cant see how any of that helps me in the slightest, unless i suffered from the 100% irish disease of wishing ill on others so i feel im doing better myself.

Treppen

salonfire wrote: »

Go ask someone who's livelihood was cut off by covid. If you have the balls to be so glib and play dumb when faced with someone who spent the last year on welfare that is. Or someone who spent the recession years on welfare.

What's their qualifications?
I know people who sat on their asses last recession and moaned about public sector and waited for things to pick up. I also know people who didn't sit around and did a year springboard course and now on descent money in pharma...

Plus... not forgetting about all the supposed handy jobs with loads of "perks" in the public sector.

fliball123

growleaves wrote: »

That is not true. I don't understand how these companies can get away with putting on the poor mouth. Its their negotiating position which is fine but why are people on the receiving end of this spin running with it? Real inflation is massive, especially asset inflation (i.e. the shares of any publicly floated company) yet supposedly the only thing which can't keep up with inflation is wages, which must stagnate or even go backwards. Consumer prices up, asset prices up, wages down.. sorry there's no money, it all disappeared down a black hole.

But yeah lets bid down wages across the board then perhaps we can feel better about our losing hand.

So how does that work in the private sector with a company not offering a pension. Employee : Sorry I only want the job if it comes with a pension? Employer - cant afford them or if I can afford them there is no certainty I can continue to afford them into the future. NEXT

Not saying your wrong by the way it would be great if the private sector got the same levels of reward for a life of working as the public sector while paying the amount the public sector pay for this reward. Yet its not affordable you cant expect the private sector to pay partially for the public sector pensions scheme and then pay again for their own on top of what they are paying in tax. Same goes with a lot of companies they cant afford it

Yous do know we have a ticking timebomb with regards to pensions.

https://www.iapf.ie/News/News/default.aspx?id=201

https://www.irishtimes.com/special-reports/pensions-focus-2018/public-sector-versus-private-sector-schemes-a-ticking-time-bomb-1.3249402

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's a genuine question, they have totally failed to back up their other claims but there is always hope.

The aggression in your post speaks volumes.

Oh and the public sector was not responsible for either the virus, or the 2007-onwards financial crash

That person might be able to convey one of perks you have face to face better than people on a discussion forum can. Sure seems like you are struggling to understand one of the perks.

Treppen

salonfire wrote: »

That person might be able to convey one of perks you have face to face better than people on a discussion forum can. Sure seems like you are struggling to understand one of the perks.

What perks were they talking about?

Is it like the other public sector bashing thread about the guy counting the "free coffee" that all gardaí get as a perk :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

salonfire wrote: »

That person might be able to convey one of perks you have face to face better than people on a discussion forum can. Sure seems like you are struggling to understand one of the perks.

So what? Whatever job you choose it has its upsides and its downsides. I'm not responsible for the consequences of other people's choice of career.

Hotblack Desiato

fliball123 wrote: »

Well on top of guaranteed pension, pay increments and job security

Not perks. Increments are part of the pay scale and many private sector employers have pay scales too, pretty stupid to pay someone just in the door the same as an experienced employee tbh.

The only reason there is job security in the public sector (for those not on temporary or rolling contracts) is because Dept of Finance won't pay redundancy. But when the banks crashed how many did they make involuntarily redundant?

Pension is part of the T&C for the job so it's not a perk either and you really haven't been paying attention if you think it's guaranteed, either.

Three swings, three misses.

here is a list from 2012. I know there was an attempt to get rid of some when we were in the sh1tter back after the last crash but the government didnt seem to be able to get rid of many

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/list-of-public-service-allowances-1.742417

Brendan Howler Howlin made a teeny weeny dent in them

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/75m-joke-12-public-sector-perks-the-government-wont-cut-28811725.html

Be interesting how many are still existing in 2021 I know some may have been negotiated away after 2012.

Allowances. If they are to compensate for genuine expenses associated with the job e.g. uniform then they are not a perk. Most of them are tiny and not increased in decades. They only apply to certain grades and usually only with small numbers in those grades qualifying for them. The vast majority of public sector workers don't get them.

But really is two sensationalist newspaper articles from nine years ago the best you can do?

Another swing and a miss.