Public service pay cut?

Treppen

fliball123 wrote: »

So how does that work in the private sector with a company not offering a pension. Employee : Sorry I only want the job if it comes with a pension? Employer - cant afford them or if I can afford them there is no certainty I can continue to afford them into the future. NEXT

Not saying your wrong by the way it would be great if the private sector got the same levels of reward for a life of working as the public sector while paying the amount the public sector pay for this reward. Yet its not affordable you cant expect the private sector to pay partially for the public sector pensions scheme and then pay again for their own on top of what they are paying in tax. Same goes with a lot of companies they cant afford it

Yous do know we have a ticking timebomb with regards to pensions.

https://www.iapf.ie/News/News/default.aspx?id=201

https://www.irishtimes.com/special-reports/pensions-focus-2018/public-sector-versus-private-sector-schemes-a-ticking-time-bomb-1.3249402

Public sector are forced to contribute to a pension scheme from day 1. In early twenties. Which is career average now. The new public sector pension scheme is cost neutral with barely anything extra, you get out what you put in.

Private sector can do as they wish. The problem with this "pension time bomb" is private sector relying on state pension to pick up the tab.

Nobody ever mentioned about how the public sector pension fund is managed either.... But yet we have a Canadian teachers pension fund owning our own national lottery. At least with a private pension you can manage it yourself and put company profits into it with tax relief, plus possibly have an employer contribute.

BonnieSituation

JimmyVik wrote: »

So if im getting the mood of this thread right.
All of us private sector workers will not be happy until public sector workers are
a) taxed more.
b) have their pensions removed
c) are fired.

As a private sector worker I cant see how any of that helps me in the slightest, unless i suffered from the 100% irish disease of wishing ill on others so i feel im doing better myself.

Are you sure you're really a private sector worker?

That sounds like public sector talk to me.

JimmyVik

Treppen wrote: »

What perks were they talking about?

Is it like the other public sector bashing thread about the guy counting the "free coffee" that all gardaí get as a perk :pac:

Thats not fair. I dont get free coffee where I work.


The only perks I get are

- Company car
- Meal allowance of €100 pm comes as a flat €100pm on my salary as a BIK

- Accommodation allowance €400pm comes as a flat €400pm on my salary as a BIK (i could live in a shed and still keep the €400)
- Club/gym membership of €800 per year
- Pension match
- Health insurance for my family

- Christmas party every year (hardly call that sh!te a perk though)
- An extra 2 days holidays for every 5 years im with the company
- Bonus of roughly 10% per year. None this year though.
- Salary increase guaranteed to match inflation, but usually far more.



But I dont get free coffee.

How do I get the free coffee?

Do I have to join the public sector? Or become a garda (fcuk that. ive seen inside the k).

JimmyVik

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Are you sure you're really a private sector worker?

That sounds like public sector talk to me.

If I dont like bullying and begrudgery i must not be a private sector worker?
Fukin hate that aspect of Ireland with a passion.

BonnieSituation

JimmyVik wrote: »

If I dont like bullying and begrudgery i must not be a private sector worker?
Fukin hate that aspect of Ireland with a passion.

It's a dose alright.

I wonder if fliball would have so much time to post on here if he had a civil service job?

salonfire

Treppen wrote: »

Public sector are forced to contribute to a pension scheme from day 1. In early twenties. Which is career average now. The new public sector pension scheme is cost neutral with barely anything extra, you get out what you put in.

The public sector paradox raises its head yet again. One one hand they shout about lowly paid 'yellow pack' new entrants. On the other hand they shout about having to contribute into pensions from Day 1.

If they are so lowly paid, how can they be earning enough to cross the thresholds below which no pension deduction is taken?

Plus you are forgetting the lumpsum.

I do agree though that pensions are probably cost neutral for the most part and it is not realistic to expect the employee to pay the full cost of the pension. The employer has to contribute.

salonfire

JimmyVik wrote: »

If I dont like bullying and begrudgery i must not be a private sector worker?
Fukin hate that aspect of Ireland with a passion.

All your perks but I sure hope you're not in a decision making position.

Eg you see a 200bn hole in your finances and you don't want to see any action taken lest it is seen as bullying.

fliball123

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's a dose alright.

I wonder if fliball would have so much time to post on here if he had a civil service job?

Far more of the ps on here than private sector so do you want to be pot or kettle there ..you can also see a drop off at lunch time from the PS side must be out getting coffee and not at their desk watching the clock

Geuze

I am the first to admit that past PS pensions were generous.

Pre 1995.

Pay 6.5% of salary, straight, no integration with State Pension.

Receive 150% lump-sum and 50% pension, and survivors pension.

BonnieSituation

fliball123 wrote: »

Far more of the ps on here than private sector so do you want to be pot or kettle there ..you can also see a drop off at lunch time from the PS side must be out getting coffee and not at their desk watching the clock

I work in the private sector.

Oh noes.

salonfire

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I work in the private sector.

Oh noes.

Not quite telling the full story here now are you.

growleaves

fliball123 wrote: »

Far more of the ps on here than private sector so do you want to be pot or kettle there ..you can also see a drop off at lunch time from the PS side must be out getting coffee and not at their desk watching the clock

I don't work in the public sector.

I am simply objecting to PS wage cuts as a solution to low wages in the private sector.

fliball123

growleaves wrote: »

I don't work in the public sector.

I am simply objecting to PS wage cuts as a solution to low wages in the private sector.

How about as a solution to our 17billion deficit and 240Billion debt maybe the powers that be should hold off giving payrises above the increments that are going on

BonnieSituation

fliball123 wrote: »

How about as a solution to our 17billion deficit and 240Billion debt maybe the powers that be should hold off giving payrises above the increments that are going on

You really seem personally put out about government spending. It's a bit unhealthy.

JimmyVik

salonfire wrote: »

All your perks but I sure hope you're not in a decision making position.

Eg you see a 200bn hole in your finances and you don't want to see any action taken lest it is seen as bullying.

Tell the truth.
You want someone else to pay the tax instead of you.
Dont be afraid to admit it. I would rather everyone else was taxed more if it saved me paying the tax too.

growleaves

fliball123 wrote: »

How about as a solution to our 17billion deficit and 240Billion debt maybe the powers that be should hold off giving payrises above the increments that are going on

The deficits are too big to paid down, they should be defaulted on.

The deficits will create a deflationary drag on the economy as so much money is diverted away from productive economic activity and into debt servicing. We'll never see another (real) boom with this debt millstone hanging around our necks.

That is the case with or without austerity (imposed on the PS, or another part of society) as the principal debt is now so large.

salonfire

JimmyVik wrote: »

Tell the truth.
You want someone else to pay the tax instead of you.
Dont be afraid to admit it. I would rather everyone else was taxed more if it saved me paying the tax too.

You're clearly not a manager or in any decision making authority if you do not consider all possible actions that can be taken to tackle a problem.

I have no problem paying tax, I supported the water charges and people in Ireland in general have no problem paying tax. Yet we're still overspending and digging a deeper hole.

fliball123

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not perks. Increments are part of the pay scale and many private sector employers have pay scales too, pretty stupid to pay someone just in the door the same as an experienced employee tbh.

The only reason there is job security in the public sector (for those not on temporary or rolling contracts) is because Dept of Finance won't pay redundancy. But when the banks crashed how many did they make involuntarily redundant?

Pension is part of the T&C for the job so it's not a perk either and you really haven't been paying attention if you think it's guaranteed, either.

Three swings, three misses.




Allowances. If they are to compensate for genuine expenses associated with the job e.g. uniform then they are not a perk. Most of them are tiny and not increased in decades. They only apply to certain grades and usually only with small numbers in those grades qualifying for them. The vast majority of public sector workers don't get them.

But really is two sensationalist newspaper articles from nine years ago the best you can do?

Another swing and a miss.

There is a very low % of people in the private sector on an any kind of incremental system. If you get a payrise in the private sector its for doing a good job and your company has made a profit, there are too many clock watchers and people who make very serious mistakes in the public sector who get increments no matter what. Dont get me wrong lots in there who deserve pay increments and even the pay rises but while you cant weed out the bad and everyone gets increments the good, bad and ugly the system should be stopped and overhauled.

There is zero people currently in the private sector getting a payrise while the people who pay their wage is borrowing 17Billion or 240Billion in debt. See how that works?


DOF not paying redundancies really?? So no on took voluntary redundancies after the last crash. The PS are like l'oriel when it comes to redundancies

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/no-more-golden-handshakes-civil-servants-wave-goodbye-to-generous-severance-payments-26790067.html

https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/hse/2010/11.pdf

https://www.inmo.ie/tempDocs/Q%20and%20A%20VSR.pdf

https://www.siptu.ie/bulletin/pdf/1288626775Circular%207-2010.pdf

Just a few of the many lines of voluntary redundancies offered back after the last crash. The DOF dont do compulsory redundancy but they do voluntary and usually a nice little golden handshake to see you on your merry way.

The pension is a perk its something that those in the private sector would have to pay a lot of money to have. So it a perk saying that its not is just lying. Everyone knows its a perk. A small % who work in the private sector have this perk as well.

The majority of the 1.5billion paid out for the allowances/perks back in 2012 are still in play Howlers saved about 3 million on perks. So if you have any evidence to the contrary I would like to hear it?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/no-mr-howlin-we-wont-cut-perks-for-our-own-workers-26896253.html

There were over 800 Allowances for all kinds of reasons (some valid and some not so valid) a lot of them are still in place. Look the question was asked what perks/allowances are in the PS and there are lots of them.

fliball123

Treppen wrote: »

Public sector are forced to contribute to a pension scheme from day 1. In early twenties. Which is career average now. The new public sector pension scheme is cost neutral with barely anything extra, you get out what you put in.

Private sector can do as they wish. The problem with this "pension time bomb" is private sector relying on state pension to pick up the tab.

Nobody ever mentioned about how the public sector pension fund is managed either.... But yet we have a Canadian teachers pension fund owning our own national lottery. At least with a private pension you can manage it yourself and put company profits into it with tax relief, plus possibly have an employer contribute.

You forget that what they pay into their pensions does not cover the full cost of their pension so the tax payer has to pay in tax or the state has to borrow to cover the rest of the money needed for these pensions and as your correctly pointed out from day 1 this happens.

We pay PRSI for our pension, we pay income tax but the money seems to be spent else where.

What happened the private pension pot after the last crash? It got raided by the state and you think that after that they are going to trust the govenement again?

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/pensions/outrage-over-plan-to-raid-workers-pensions-26729898.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-40059338.html

https://www.fiannafail.ie/theft-tuesday-as-government-raid-pension-funds-for-another-e140m-mcgrath/

That dog wont hunt and you cant blame people for not wanting to pay into a scheme that at the drop of a hat the government can raid. Now considering how precarious the countries financial position is in any cash that is in or going into private sector pensions in the future will be up for grabs again . Already the troika are starting to shoot arrows across about our sustainability on current spend

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cabinet-to-be-warned-public-spending-levels-are-unsustainable-1.4548376?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fcabinet-to-be-warned-public-spending-levels-are-unsustainable-1.4548376

This is going to be a lot worse than 08 if our spend is not brought under control

fliball123

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You really seem personally put out about government spending. It's a bit unhealthy.

Why wouldn't I be put out. I will have to pay it back along with every other tax payer and we are literally borrowing for foolish decisions now and our kids and grandkids will have to pay it back.

fliball123

growleaves wrote: »

The deficits are too big to paid down, they should be defaulted on.

The deficits will create a deflationary drag on the economy as so much money is diverted away from productive economic activity and into debt servicing. We'll never see another (real) boom with this debt millstone hanging around our necks.

That is the case with or without austerity (imposed on the PS, or another part of society) as the principal debt is now so large.

Do you mean default on the debt. I mean I dont think we could close a 17Billion gap that we are currently borrowing to keep the lights on.

How would you close the deficit? If your talking about defaulting on the debt.

KaneToad

Treppen wrote: »

What perks were they talking about?

Is it like the other public sector bashing thread about the guy counting the "free coffee" that all gardaí get as a perk :pac:

My ears are burning!

I complain about the guards getting free stuff because it's unethical. Not because it's a perk.

growleaves

fliball123 wrote: »

Do you mean default on the debt. I mean I dont think we could close a 17Billion gap that we are currently borrowing to keep the lights on.

How would you close the deficit? If your talking about defaulting on the debt.

Yes debt.

I don't have an answer to your question.

fliball123

growleaves wrote: »

Yes debt.

I don't have an answer to your question. I don't know.

Well think about it, say something on a more personal basis. If you were earning say 100 Euros a month and you had outgoings of 200 a month and you were borrowing for this 100 off your bank and you have built up a year of this debt and had a debt of 1200 at the end of the year. If you turn around and say feck that 1200 I aint paying it and oh by the way can I have the next 100 please?? Your not going to get the next 100 or away with not paying your debt and no one else will give it to you either as your likely to do the same to them.

Which is why the deficit for me is vital we get this under control and if we dont have to borrow then you could renege on the debt but the next time you borrow there will be a hefty interest return.

growleaves

fliball123 wrote: »

There is a very low % of people in the private sector on an any kind of incremental system. If you get a payrise in the private sector its for doing a good job and your company has made a profit, there are too many clock watchers and people who make very serious mistakes in the public sector who get increments no matter what. Dont get me wrong lots in there who deserve pay increments and even the pay rises but while you cant weed out the bad and everyone gets increments the good, bad and ugly the system should be stopped and overhauled.

There is zero people currently in the private sector getting a payrise while the people who pay their wage is borrowing 17Billion or 240Billion in debt. See
how that works?

I doubt that very much. Woeful if true. Can nobody in booming sectors like pharma, medical devices, large food manufacturers etc. negotiate a pay rise even as their companies are seeing unheard-of large profits?

Many companies have done extremely well out of covid and lockdown. Many of their small competitors are literally barred from trading. Not to mention that the monetary system inflates assets (including company shares).

fliball123

growleaves wrote: »

I doubt that very much. Woeful if true. Can nobody in booming sectors like pharma, medical devices, large food manufacturers etc. negotiate a pay rise even as their companies are seeing unheard-of large profits?

Many companies have done extremely well out of covid and lockdown. Many of their small competitors are literally barred from trading. Not to mention that the monetary system inflates assets (including company shares).

Look at what I wrote. I said there are zero people in the private sector getting a payrise while the people who pay their wage are 240billion in debt and borrowing 17billion a year to keep the lights on.

growleaves

fliball123 wrote: »

Well think about it, say something on a more personal basis. If you were earning say 100 Euros a month and you had outgoings of 200 a month and you were borrowing for this 100 off your bank and you have built up a year of this debt and had a debt of 1200 at the end of the year. If you turn around and say feck that 1200 I aint paying it and oh by the way can I have the next 100 please?? Your not going to get the next 100 or away with not paying your debt and no one else will give it to you either as your likely to do the same to them.

Which is why the deficit for me is vital we get this under control and if we dont have to borrow then you could renege on the debt but the next time you borrow there will be a hefty interest return.

I agree with you entirely here. I simply don't know enough about the country borrowings and expenditures to give an opinion about where savings could be made.

Wage decline and job insecurity seem to me to be the biggest driver of personal austerity and frustration for most people, so I would be looking to cut something else where possible.

fliball123

growleaves wrote: »

I agree with you entirely here. I simply don't know enough about the country borrowings and expenditures to give an opinion about where savings could be made.

Wage decline and job insecurity seem to me to be the biggest driver of personal austerity and frustration for most people, so I would be looking to cut something else where possible.

Anywhere that cuts are implemented people are going to moan and say why me. its a hard thing to do. Whats sure is the government will not get away with increasing personal taxation as we are already over egging that pudding and the supposed temporary USC tax was imposed on us so that little stunt will not be entertained again either and with WFH now available in a lot of tech and pharma jobs, people dont need to live in Ireland and we could see people running out of here if they keep pushing up taxes on those on the middle and higher incomes. Same goes with indirect taxes the water charges have shown that if the government try the same trick they will be put back in their box. So the room to maneuver now is very slight this time around as apposed to 08

BonnieSituation

fliball123 wrote: »

Why wouldn't I be put out. I will have to pay it back along with every other tax payer and we are literally borrowing for foolish decisions now and our kids and grandkids will have to pay it back.

That's how sovereign debt works.

JimmyVik

salonfire wrote: »

You're clearly not a manager or in any decision making authority if you do not consider all possible actions that can be taken to tackle a problem.

I have no problem paying tax, I supported the water charges and people in Ireland in general have no problem paying tax. Yet we're still overspending and digging a deeper hole.

I doubt you are an expert in public finances yourself.