Public service pay cut?

fliball123

runawaybishop wrote: »

Governments and the running of a country are not the same as a private business. This is basic stuff FFS.

Yet they both have to try and keep the lights on.

So do you think we can continue borrowing 17Billion+ on the never never? Why dont you read into the bailout we had to get after the last crash. Why does it take outsiders (the lenders of last resort) coming in to make us make the hard decisions? The answer is not one politician has a pair of balls between them more interested in lining their pockets and seeking power than actually running the country.

I do understand that running a country is not like running a private business as if it were Ireland Inc. would of hit the wall and disappeared off the map with how our finances are.

runawaybishop

salonfire wrote: »

So why do some countries run large surpluses? Are they doing it wrong?

If I thought for a second you could engage in unbiased debate I'd be happy to chat to you, but you have made it pretty clear that you froth at the mouth when the public service are mentioned.

fliball123

salonfire wrote: »

So why do some countries run large surpluses? Are they doing it wrong?

We actually had a surplus in 2019

runawaybishop

fliball123 wrote: »

Yet they both have to try and keep the lights on.

So do you think we can continue borrowing 17Billion+ on the never never? Why dont you read into the bailout we had to get after the last crash. Why does it take outsiders (the lenders of last resort) coming in to make us make the hard decisions? The answer is not one politician has a pair of balls between them more interested in lining their pockets and seeking power than actually running the country.

I do understand that running a country is not like running a private business as if it were Ireland Inc. would of hit the wall and disappeared off the map with how our finances are.

Amusingly enough in your last paragraph your attempt at a counter argument just confirms what I said. All we need to do is service debt, we don't have shareholders to placate with profit. We should be working towards a surplus but your constant comparison to private industry is just wrong.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Overall on average they are from 2019 from the CSO

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq42018finalq12019preliminaryestimates/

"overall on average" baaahaaahaaa.

Overall on average, Brown Thomas are more expensive than Penneys, but comparing overall on averages is fairly meaningless.

BonnieSituation

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

"overall on average" baaahaaahaaa.

Overall on average, Brown Thomas are more expensive than Penneys, but comparing overall on averages is fairly meaningless.

You have to appreciate the tenacity of them to keep peddling this crap.

fliball123

runawaybishop wrote: »

Amusingly enough in your last paragraph your attempt at a counter argument just confirms what I said. All we need to do is service debt, we don't have shareholders to placate with profit. We should be working towards a surplus but your constant comparison to private industry is just wrong.

So what happens when the debt gets rolled over at a higher interest (currently we are paying the interest on debt back at possibly the lowest interest there has ever been) and of course borrowing 17Billion + for the next few years means that the debt and interest repayments will be massive. Thats before a single penny is spent on the housing crisis or the additional billion needed each year for the HSE or for the next lot of public sector payrises.

So under normal circumstances I would agree with your contention that the deficit if its bridged we would be ok but unfortunately we are not in normal circumstances. In 2019 we were the third most indebted country in the world and with this as our starting point we have found ourselves in an economy with the following financial vulnerabilities:

240Billion in debt

Paying interest rates back on this debt is currently at the lowest rate it has ever been and as night follows day rates will go up

Having to pay out more for ps pay rises/HSE/ Housing issues.- Your talking a serious amount of money needed for this

Add in our corporation taxes are going to get cut by 2 - 6 billion over the next number of years

Now you only have to compare our finances now to after the last crash and you will come to the realization that we are way worse off financially now then when the troika road into town and forced us to cop ourselves on with our spending.

Covid has taken the attention away but when the world is back spinning we will be asked to be held accountable and to get our finances sorted out. Already the ERSI have shot an arrow across the bow with regards to increases in taxation. If everything is so hunkydory like you make out why are they going out of their way to publish this opinion?

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

"overall on average" baaahaaahaaa.

Overall on average, Brown Thomas are more expensive than Penneys, but comparing overall on averages is fairly meaningless.

At least you have the choice to shop in Pennys and ignore Brown Thomas the same cant be said about our public services. Sh1t or not you have no choice. Expensive or not you have no choice.

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

I will say it here now there is no way the public sector will be getting a pay rise in 2022. My prediction for next year lets see if it comes true.

They will be getting the 2022 rise I will confidently predict.

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

At least you have the choice to shop in Pennys and ignore Brown Thomas the same cant be said about our public services. Sh1t or not you have no choice. Expensive or not you have no choice.

Actually you do, for example you can choose to go private for medical care. You will more than likely be seen and treated in a public hospital even when going private, but that's just a misuse of public infrastructure that some like to ignore.

About the only public service that I can't see a way of not using if a person is honest is revenue. But plenty private sector workers do their best to do so.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They will be getting the 2022 rise I will confidently predict.

Is the pay restoration being strung out till then?

Cluedo Monopoly

fliball123 wrote: »

So what happens when the debt gets rolled over at a higher interest (currently we are paying the interest on debt back at possibly the lowest interest there has ever been) and of course borrowing 17Billion + for the next few years means that the debt and interest repayments will be massive. Thats before a single penny is spent on the housing crisis or the additional billion needed each year for the HSE or for the next lot of public sector payrises.

So under normal circumstances I would agree with your contention that the deficit if its bridged we would be ok but unfortunately we are not in normal circumstances. In 2019 we were the third most indebted country in the world and with this as our starting point we have found ourselves in an economy with the following financial vulnerabilities:

240Billion in debt

Paying interest rates back on this debt is currently at the lowest rate it has ever been and as night follows day rates will go up

Having to pay out more for ps pay rises/HSE/ Housing issues.- Your talking a serious amount of money needed for this

Add in our corporation taxes are going to get cut by 2 - 6 billion over the next number of years

Now you only have to compare our finances now to after the last crash and you will come to the realization that we are way worse off financially now then when the troika road into town and forced us to cop ourselves on with our spending.

Covid has taken the attention away but when the world is back spinning we will be asked to be held accountable and to get our finances sorted out. Already the ERSI have shot an arrow across the bow with regards to increases in taxation. If everything is so hunkydory like you make out why are they going out of their way to publish this opinion?

One thing is for absolute certain. The state pension will reduce significantly in relative terms. I am not sure how our public or state pensions will be paid. I agree inflation and interest/borrowing rates will start to rise too. Interesting times ahead. Fine as long as the multinationals stay.

Cluedo Monopoly

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

One thing is for absolute certain. The state pension will reduce significantly in relative terms. I am not sure how our public or state pensions will be paid. I agree inflation and interest/borrowing rates will start to rise too. Interesting times ahead. Fine as long as the multinationals stay.

You would be entitled to some form of ps pension from your time there wouldn't you. Obviously not a full one, but what ever you amassed during your time with them. Do you think that you won't get it?

KaneToad

NaFirinne wrote: »

I hope the paycuts start with the Government salaries and bonuses

What bonuses do the government get??

Geuze

A PS pay deal for 2021 and 2022 has already been done.

2021 = 1%
2022 = 1%

Plus a possible extra 1% local bargaining.

daithi7

Ah look to grant a payrise for the public sector in the middle of a covid pandemic, while close to a million people are out of work in Ireland, and we are borrowing to fund hugely inflated and unsustainable public sector pay & pensions and other current spending is both bizarre and perverse.

Any Gobsh@tes who think otherwise must either directly gain from such an increase (e.g. are public or civil servants or related to one) or have an agenda, or both.

Ireland is being mismanaged financially yet again. We saw this in the 80s, the 00s and now, and it always ends the same way. With undue financial hardship, and a sharp reduction in services. Truth is we massively overpay for poor public services in Ireland. Our grossly expensive health service with it's lousy outcomes versus OECD peers, with our younger population is a prototypical case in point.

We need to do better imho. The govenrment promised an independent commission on public sector pay when the IMF were here cleaning up the last public finances mess. Why is this not in place and vocal?!?
We deserve that much, at the very least!!

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

At least you have the choice to shop in Pennys and ignore Brown Thomas the same cant be said about our public services. Sh1t or not you have no choice. Expensive or not you have no choice.

Do you want two HSEs to choose from?

You make your choice when you drop your vote in the ballot box.

AndrewJRenko

daithi7 wrote: »

Ah look to grant a payrise for the public sector in the middle of a covid pandemic, while close to a million people are out of work in Ireland, and we are borrowing to fund hugely inflated and unsustainable public sector pay & pensions and other current spending is both bizarre and perverse.

Any Gobsh@tes who think otherwise must either directly gain from such an increase (e.g. are public or civil servants or related to one) or have an agenda, or both.

Ireland is being mismanaged financially yet again. We saw this in the 80s, the 00s and now, and it always ends the same way. With undue financial hardship, and a sharp reduction in services. Truth is we massively overpay for poor public services in Ireland. Our grossly expensive health service with it's lousy outcomes versus OECD peers, with our younger population is a prototypical case in point.

We need to do better imho. The govenrment promised an independent commission on public sector pay when the IMF were here cleaning up the last public finances mess. Why is this not in place and vocal?!?
We deserve that much, at the very least!!

The last public finance mess caused by banks, their private sector auditors and building developers.

runawaybishop

fliball123 wrote: »

So what happens when the debt gets rolled over at a higher interest (currently we are paying the interest on debt back at possibly the lowest interest there has ever been) and of course borrowing 17Billion + for the next few years means that the debt and interest repayments will be massive. Thats before a single penny is spent on the housing crisis or the additional billion needed each year for the HSE or for the next lot of public sector payrises.

So under normal circumstances I would agree with your contention that the deficit if its bridged we would be ok but unfortunately we are not in normal circumstances. In 2019 we were the third most indebted country in the world and with this as our starting point we have found ourselves in an economy with the following financial vulnerabilities:

240Billion in debt

Paying interest rates back on this debt is currently at the lowest rate it has ever been and as night follows day rates will go up

Having to pay out more for ps pay rises/HSE/ Housing issues.- Your talking a serious amount of money needed for this

Add in our corporation taxes are going to get cut by 2 - 6 billion over the next number of years

Now you only have to compare our finances now to after the last crash and you will come to the realization that we are way worse off financially now then when the troika road into town and forced us to cop ourselves on with our spending.

Covid has taken the attention away but when the world is back spinning we will be asked to be held accountable and to get our finances sorted out. Already the ERSI have shot an arrow across the bow with regards to increases in taxation. If everything is so hunkydory like you make out why are they going out of their way to publish this opinion?

I don't agree with the pay rises.

And again you are just looking at the public sector as if it was a private business. It is not. A private business doesn't give a **** about staff and will cut them when it wants, it has zero obligations to them afterwards.

Similarly the public sector should never try to emulate the private sector with their minimum wage zero hour contracts and hiding of top earners salaries.

The government have obligations over and above what the private sector do and they operate completely differently. You need to start looking at these key differences rationally.

runawaybishop

daithi7 wrote: »

, and we are borrowing to fund hugely inflated and unsustainable public sector pay & pensions

Current pension and pay are no where near hugely inflated. There is a huge recruitment issue in many section of the PS, especially around IT.

daithi7

daithi7 wrote: »

Ah look to grant a payrise for the public sector in the middle of a covid pandemic, while close to a million people are out of work in Ireland, and we are borrowing to fund hugely inflated and unsustainable public sector pay & pensions and other current spending is both bizarre and perverse.

Any Gobsh@tes who think otherwise must either directly gain from such an increase (e.g. are public or civil servants or related to one) or have an agenda, or both.

Ireland is being mismanaged financially yet again. We saw this in the 80s, the 00s and now, and it always ends the same way. With undue financial hardship, and a sharp reduction in services. Truth is we massively overpay for poor public services in Ireland. Our grossly expensive health service with it's lousy outcomes versus OECD peers, with our younger population is a prototypical case in point.

We need to do better imho. The govenrment promised an independent commission on public sector pay when the IMF were here cleaning up the last public finances mess. Why is this not in place and vocal?!?
We deserve that much, at the very least!!

I'm getting a very pay rise in the middle of a pandemic why shouldn't the public service have their pay restored.

Also the last crash was due to financial mismanagement by private sector financial companies who still got their bonuses.

I don’t think people appreciate the quality of public servants we have here.

daithi7

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The last public finance mess caused by banks, their private sector auditors and building developers.

And why did you omit to add the out of control public sector pay and pensions?!

Government & the public sector unions were gorging themselves on unsustainable property transaction taxes, and became massively complicit in inflating the property bubble that was funding their hyper pay increases.

This was a massive factor in the last financial crisis in Ireland and is one of the main reasons we and our children will still be paying for it , long into the future.

That's what baking in compounding public sector pay & pensions increases can do to a small countries finances.

To be doing so again, less than 10 years later is totally irresponsible & disgraceful imho.

Treppen

fliball123 wrote: »

At least you have the choice to shop in Pennys and ignore Brown Thomas the same cant be said about our public services. Sh1t or not you have no choice. Expensive or not you have no choice.

I have a choice of tradesmen and they're all sh1t, and doubt they put half the jobs through the books.

JimmyVik

No pay rise for me last year (for the first time in over 10 years) but just got told whole company is getting between 5 and 10% pay rise at the end of July. Happy days.

fliball123

DubInMeath wrote: »

Actually you do, for example you can choose to go private for medical care. You will more than likely be seen and treated in a public hospital even when going private, but that's just a misuse of public infrastructure that some like to ignore.

About the only public service that I can't see a way of not using if a person is honest is revenue. But plenty private sector workers do their best to do so.

So pay more for a service that you have already paid for in tax ..Yeah great choice.

Treppen

daithi7 wrote: »

And why did you omit to add the out of control public sector pay and pensions?!

Government & the public sector unions were gorging themselves on unsustainable property transaction taxes, and became massively complicit in inflating the property bubble that was funding their hyper pay increases.

This was a massive factor in the last financial crisis in Ireland and is one of the main reasons we and our children will still be paying for it , long into the future.

That's what baking in compounding public sector pay & pensions increases can do to a small countries finances.

To be doing so again, less than 10 years later is totally irresponsible & disgraceful imho.

Ohhh the old 'public sector were to blame for the bust' nonsense.
Let's be realistic , tech and pharma boom in late 90s fuelled the economy, and the resultant spin offs from spending... Cue over-lending to people in private sector with insecure employment (not public sector obviously). That all came tumbling down when banks were shown to have crap liquidity ratio and the tide went out.

Enough of the revisionism, its overplaying of a bad hand. It wasn't caused by public sector increase in pay.

ratracer

daithi7 wrote: »

And why did you omit to add the out of control public sector pay and pensions?!

Government & the public sector unions were gorging themselves on unsustainable property transaction taxes, and became massively complicit in inflating the property bubble that was funding their hyper pay increases.

This was a massive factor in the last financial crisis in Ireland and is one of the main reasons we and our children will still be paying for it , long into the future.

That's what baking in compounding public sector pay & pensions increases can do to a small countries finances.

To be doing so again, less than 10 years later is totally irresponsible & disgraceful imho.

How much do you think the average outdoor worker in the PS gets paid, how much do you think nurses get paid? Because from your posts, I'd say they are getting millions!!
Why do local authorities struggle to recruit and retain IT professionals and why am I constantly seeing engineering roles pop up on publicjobs.ie? If it's so good, why are there so many jobs, if they were so good, surely there would be little staff turnover?
What am I missing here?

fliball123

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

One thing is for absolute certain. The state pension will reduce significantly in relative terms. I am not sure how our public or state pensions will be paid. I agree inflation and interest/borrowing rates will start to rise too. Interesting times ahead. Fine as long as the multinationals stay.

Not a chance the blue rinse brigade get cut as they would probably be the biggest voting block in the country. Not a chance any political party goes after them.

The multinationals may stay but they will have the power to hire people from outside of Ireland (as they already do) to do work within Ireland but we will lose corporation tax revenue via the new OCED tax changes. This has been flagged as far back as 2015 and its now ramping up.

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you want two HSEs to choose from?

You make your choice when you drop your vote in the ballot box.

No I would like a decent service for the money you pay is that ok with you. I was obviously highlighting the case that public services have no pressure on them to be good bad or indifferent and there is absolutely no pressure to make the service efficient. Private sector you have a bad service or if the company is run inefficiently you will find your self out of work as the company you work for will go bust.