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Public service pay cut?

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  • Options
    #3542
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    The last public finance mess caused by banks, their private sector auditors and building developers.

    emmm the last count the banks cost us about 40billion (minus what shares the government have in the banks currently) where did the other 160Billion come from? The truth is even if Anglo and the banker boys had behaved we were on this path to destruction anyway. So answer the question where did the other 160Billion of the 200Billion of debt the country was in after the last crash come from. Answers on the back of a postcard and send them in.

    We go snookered in the crash of 08.

    We ramped up spending to more than double what we were spending in 5/6 years pre 08. This is on record and the facts bear this out. Bertie bought 2 elections with bench marking (keeping the PS happy) and welfare rates (keeping the blue rinse brigade happy) that are like carlsberg probably the best rates in the world. He did this and based it on the gombeen idea that 8% stamp duty on buying a house would be a good solid base for a recurring tax. Enter the banks who also played a huge part but who was supposed to be the watchdog here for the country???. Then we had the property crash and even with our 8% on stamp duty coming in the reality that 8% of diddlysquat meant a huge hole in our finances. Dont get me wrong if I had the choice of giving money to the bankers or public sector I would give it to the public sector hands down. Unfortunately the country doesn't do white collar crime. One of the many inefficiencies in our PS. Add in the financial regulator was either bitten by a zombie or turned into Rip Van Winkle for the 3/4 years during the crash. Then you have the piste de resistance the 2 Brians (should be renamed the two Ronnies) were absolutely bamboozled by the banks and then later during the crash the nonsense of denying the troika were in town when they had a scheduled meeting with them. I would of been laughing if it was happening to another country but it was us.

    So this sh1te of the bankers did it doesn't wash and the facts bear that out. They had a 40Billion hand in it. But who allowed it and where did the other 160Billion of debt come from. When you answer those questions you will understand why a lot of people are annoyed at payrises in the public sector and with our welfare rates. As the debt has gone up since the crash and we are all on the hook to pay it.


  • Options
    #3543
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    I don't agree with the pay rises.

    And again you are just looking at the public sector as if it was a private business. It is not. A private business doesn't give a **** about staff and will cut them when it wants, it has zero obligations to them afterwards.

    Similarly the public sector should never try to emulate the private sector with their minimum wage zero hour contracts and hiding of top earners salaries.

    The government have obligations over and above what the private sector do and they operate completely differently. You need to start looking at these key differences rationally.


    Private business or not they are not immune to getting their house in order. Like I say we are worse off financially and borrowing as much and have more expensive problems to solve this time round as apposed to 08. There will be a reckoning. As I said the ERSI do not go out of their way to create reports such as the one they put out last week for no good reason. Its like the kite flying in Irish politics. They stick a finger out and see which way the wind is blowing.


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    #3544
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Treppen wrote: »
    I have a choice of tradesmen and they're all sh1t, and doubt they put half the jobs through the books.

    Sorry but thats a nonsense. You can actively ask for a tax receipt off any tradesman. If they dont give you one or say no your not getting one then you dont have to use them. Your gone full spin there now haven't you


  • Options
    #3545
    daithi7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭daithi7


    fliball123 wrote: »
    emmm the last count the banks cost us about 40billion (minus what shares the government have in the banks currently) where did the other 160Billion come from? The truth is even if Anglo and the banker boys had behaved we were on this path to destruction anyway. So answer the question where did the other 160Billion of the 200Billion of debt the country was in after the last crash come from. Answers on the back of a postcard and send them in.

    We go snookered in the crash of 08.

    We ramped up spending to more than double what we were spending in 5/6 years pre 08. This is on record and the facts bear this out. Bertie bought 2 elections with bench marking (keeping the PS happy) and welfare rates (keeping the blue rinse brigade happy) that are like carlsberg probably the best rates in the world. He did this and based it on the gombeen idea that 8% stamp duty on buying a house would be a good solid base for a recurring tax. Enter the banks who also played a huge part but who was supposed to be the watchdog here for the country???. Then we had the property tax and even with out 8% on stamp duty coming in the reality that 8% of diddlysquat meant a huge hole in our finances. Dont get me wrong if I had the choice of giving money to the bankers or public sector I would give it to the public sector hands down. Unfortunately the country doesn't do white collar crime. One of the many inefficiencies in our PS. Add in the financial regulator was either bitten by a zombie or turned into Rip Van Winkle for the 3/4 years during the crash. Then you have the piste de resistance the 2 Brians (should be renamed the two Ronnies) were absolutely bamboozled by the banks and then later during the crash the nonsense of denying the troika were in town when they had a scheduled meeting with them. I would of been laughing if it was happening to another country but it was us.

    So this sh1te of the bankers did it doesn't wash and the facts bear that out. They had a 40Billion hand in it. But who allowed it and where did the other 160Billion of debt come from. When you answer those questions you will undersatnd why a lot of people are annoyed at payrises in the public sector and with our welfare rates. As the debt has gone up since the crash and we are all on the hook to pay it.

    This is the inconvenient truth that 'restore pubic pay' muppets simply do not want to acknowledge. It's the truly huge , expensive elephant in the room.

    I am depressed and despondent that only ~10 years after this country went horribly bust, we (through our muppet politicians & permanent government) are increasing public sector ( their own) pay, while borrowing to fund current expenditure.

    This is simply bonkers!! Unsustainable, irresponsible & stupid.

    It's like eating foie gras while wondering why you're getting heavier & heavier & even more unhealthy. That's Ireland's public finances in 2021 now.


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    #3546
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Not a chance the blue rinse brigade get cut as they would probably be the biggest voting block in the country. Not a chance any political party goes after them.

    The multinationals may stay but they will have the power to hire people from outside of Ireland (as they already do) to do work within Ireland but we will lose corporation tax revenue via the new OCED tax changes. This has been flagged as far back as 2015 and its now ramping up.

    Looks like you will just have to pay more tax then fliball. We all will.


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    #3547
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Looks like you will just have to pay more tax then fliball. We all will.

    Will I well I tell you if they up it I have the luxury of having a job that can be done anywhere in the world. So if its a lets just tax approach I wont be paying it and I can guarantee a lot of people will have the same option. One good thing to come out of the pandemic was working from home showed employers that employees did not have to be physically at their desk to do their work. There is going to be a tsunami of people running to avoid higher taxes along with the younger populous running as they cant afford a property. At some stage the powers that be will understand the nature of the laffer curve and in particular its association with taxation. It will force people to work less or not at all, to emigrate or to hide cash in the black market. The upping of taxes will mean less tax coming in via income tax.


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    #3548
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    They are not going to cut the nurses pay.


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    #3549
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Looks like you will just have to pay more tax then fliball. We all will.

    Looks like property taxes will be going up anyway. That's only one side of the equation though. Spending has to be brought under control as well.

    Maybe the lower paid will have to pay their fair share of income tax but how feasible is that going to be? Might be easier to target the low paid than public sector payroll.


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    #3550
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They are not going to cut the nurses pay.

    Well to be square with you I was arguing about simply stopping pay rises to the public sector while we have so many unknowns. Under the current pay scale and with everything else we are paying for we have to borrow 17 Billion this cannot be sustained.


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    #3551
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    salonfire wrote: »
    Looks like property taxes will be going up anyway. That's only one side of the equation though. Spending has to be brought under control as well.

    Maybe the lower paid will have to pay their fair share of income tax but how feasible is that going to be? Might be easier to target the low paid than public sector payroll.

    Neither of us will be deciding on those matters.


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    #3552
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Neither of us will be deciding on those matters.

    See this is the nub of the problem. Why shouldnt private sector income tax payers be allowed a voice? The powers that be are borrowing 17Billion (last year alone) and they want to give one cohort of employees 3 sets of pay rises and then ask everyone to pay more in tax. Can you not see how one sided this is. They have already impugned us with the most progressive income tax system in the world. How much more do they want?


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    #3553
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    fliball123 wrote: »
    See this is the nub of the problem. Why shouldnt private sector income tax payers be allowed a voice? The powers that be are borrowing 17Billion (last year alone) and they want to give one cohort of employees 3 sets of pay rises and then ask everyone to pay more in tax. Can you not see how one sided this is. They have already impugned us with the most progressive income tax system in the world. How much more do they want?

    You do have a voice, you can vote. One vote per person.

    Btw you have no more right to a say in how this country is run than a public servant or a retired person.


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    #3554
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You do have a voice, you can vote. One vote per person.

    Btw you have no more right to a say in how this country is run than a public servant or a retired person.

    Don't get me started on voting, until politicians can be reprimanded financially for lying for getting into power I don't think I will be voting again (as there is no point). You can say anything to get into power and once they are in they do everything to remain there. There is absolutely no accountability. The worst thing that can happen to them is they get voted out in 4 years with a huge pension and a cushy job elsewhere in government to keep them in the lifestyle they have come acclimatized to. Why would you bother keeping your promise when you can fill your pockets and live out your life on the tax payers dime.

    I believe that until a politician can be financially sanctioned for their job performance after getting voted in for various promises we will not see any change in how the country is run. Sinn Fein will be voted in next time watch how many promises they row back on . Houses for all haha lets see them do this with a 17Billion hole in their pocket and of course it should be now that they are asked to explain where they will get the billions for this promise but no one seems to care.


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    #3555
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Don't get me started on voting, until politicians can be reprimanded financially for lying for getting into power I don't think I will be voting again (as there is no point). You can say anything to get into power and once they are in they do everything to remain there. There is absolutely no accountability. The worst thing that can happen to them is they get voted out in 4 years with a huge pension and a cushy job elsewhere in government to keep them in the lifestyle they have come acclimatized to. Why would you bother keeping your promise when you can fill your pockets and live out your life on the tax payers dime

    They are accountable every 5 yrs. Usually less. You won't be earning a "cushy pension" after one term as a TD - even if you are a govt minister.

    TDs contribute towards their pensions too. You might argue that it's not enough...

    Personally, I don't think the compensation for a TD is high enough. I admire (although don't vote for) a lot of TDs who could easily make more money in another profession...e.g. Pascal O'Donoghue, Simon Coveney, Michael McGrath, Leo Varadkar, Michael Healy Rae...


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    #3556
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    KaneToad wrote: »
    They are accountable every 5 yrs. Usually less. You won't be earning a "cushy pension" after one term as a TD - even if you are a govt minister.

    TDs contribute towards their pensions too. You might argue that it's not enough...

    They should walk away with nothing if they have not kept to their promise its that simple, they should not be allowed another public sector job afterward either. Imagine having to actually live up to what you say and knowing their is no safety net. You only have to do a bit of research to see where ex-TDs are I can guarantee there are few if any on the bread line the majority are back in some other public service related handy number or retired on their pensions.


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    #3557
    Traumadoc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭Traumadoc


    Huge recruitment crisis in the health service at the moment and someone wants to cut pay?


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    #3558
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Will I well I tell you if they up it I have the luxury of having a job that can be done anywhere in the world. So if its a lets just tax approach I wont be paying it and I can guarantee a lot of people will have the same option. One good thing to come out of the pandemic was working from home showed employers that employees did not have to be physically at their desk to do their work. There is going to be a tsunami of people running to avoid higher taxes along with the younger populous running as they cant afford a property. At some stage the powers that be will understand the nature of the laffer curve and in particular its association with taxation. It will force people to work less or not at all, to emigrate or to hide cash in the black market. The upping of taxes will mean less tax coming in via income tax.

    You'll be missed.

    Ireland is such a hole now, why haven't you left already?


  • Options
    #3559
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,384 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    fliball123 wrote: »
    They should walk away with nothing if they have not kept to their promise its that simple, they should not be allowed another public sector job afterward either. Imagine having to actually live up to what you say and knowing their is no safety net. You only have to do a bit of research to see where ex-TDs are I can guarantee there are few if any on the bread line.

    Their "promises" are what they intend to do. But I think most people realise that what you want to do and what you actually can do won't be the same.

    For starters, once we have a coalition govt there are a heap of "promises" that conflict and have to be discounted.

    Also, we don't operate in a vacuum. Things change, budgets grow/shrink. Priorities shift, new challenges emerge.


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    #3560
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    fliball123 wrote: »
    See this is the nub of the problem. Why shouldnt private sector income tax payers be allowed a voice? The powers that be are borrowing 17Billion (last year alone) and they want to give one cohort of employees 3 sets of pay rises and then ask everyone to pay more in tax. Can you not see how one sided this is. They have already impugned us with the most progressive income tax system in the world. How much more do they want?

    You're the sort that probably admired William Martin Murphy. Such anger for so early in the week. And you didn't take the opportunity of a weekend to do any reading at all.


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    #3561
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Such anger for so early in the week.

    That anger has been vented for a decade now. Have to admire the focus and dedication to the cause.


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    #3562
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    You'll be missed.

    Ireland is such a hole now, why haven't you left already?

    I havent left yet as they have not raised taxes yet. I would be careful as if a significant number do what I plan to do it will not end well for paying the bill when the money is running to another country


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    #3563
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    daithi7 wrote: »
    Government & the public sector unions were gorging themselves on unsustainable property transaction taxes

    I was a branch secretary for IMPACT for 7 years. I must get onto them about all that property transaction tax money I'm seemingly owed.......
    fliball123 wrote: »
    Why shouldnt private sector income tax payers be allowed a voice?
    I don't think I will be voting again

    Complains about having no voice in one post, talks about cutting off his own tongue in the next. Never change, boards. Never change.


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    #3564
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Deleted User wrote: »
    That anger has been vented for a decade now. Have to admire the focus and dedication to the cause.

    Thats because nothing has changed in the decade sorry actually I am wrong we are more in debt now as a nation then we were a decade ago. Third most indebted country in the world back in 2019 and we have borrowed a sh1t tonne of dosh since then. We must be trying get first place with borrowings.


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    #3565
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    That anger has been vented for a decade now. Have to admire the focus and dedication to the cause.

    And he's had such an effect. With all this effort he could be an AP now!


  • Options
    #3566
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I was a branch secretary for IMPACT for 7 years. I must get onto them about all that property transaction tax money I'm seemingly owed.......





    Complains about having no voice in one post, talks about cutting off his own tongue in the next. Never change, boards. Never change.

    There is zero point in me voting. There are no credible parties to choose from and individuals cannot change the current political sphere. I have always voted FG and in recent years the those who get up out of bed will be rewarded with paying less tax. Still waiting 10/12 years on for the supposed USC temp tax to be done away with. If they raise taxes before they leave the good ship Ireland Inc then I will have voted for nothing.


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    #3567
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,483 ✭✭✭weisses


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They are not going to cut the nurses pay.

    Good news....


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    #3568
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    And he's had such an effect. With all this effort he could be an AP now!


    You have zero credibility you have provided no fact to base your argument on. Its just a someone else will pay leave our pay alone. Attack the posts not the man please if you have anything fact base to back up your we can borrow for ever argument please show us?


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    #3569
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,114 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    fliball123 wrote: »
    They should walk away with nothing if they have not kept to their promise its that simple, they should not be allowed another public sector job afterward either. Imagine having to actually live up to what you say and knowing their is no safety net. You only have to do a bit of research to see where ex-TDs are I can guarantee there are few if any on the bread line the majority are back in some other public service related handy number or retired on their pensions.
    fliball123 wrote: »
    Don't get me started on voting, until politicians can be reprimanded financially for lying for getting into power I don't think I will be voting again (as there is no point). You can say anything to get into power and once they are in they do everything to remain there. There is absolutely no accountability. The worst thing that can happen to them is they get voted out in 4 years with a huge pension and a cushy job elsewhere in government to keep them in the lifestyle they have come acclimatized to. Why would you bother keeping your promise when you can fill your pockets and live out your life on the tax payers dime.

    I believe that until a politician can be financially sanctioned for their job performance after getting voted in for various promises we will not see any change in how the country is run. Sinn Fein will be voted in next time watch how many promises they row back on . Houses for all haha lets see them do this with a 17Billion hole in their pocket and of course it should be now that they are asked to explain where they will get the billions for this promise but no one seems to care.
    You should really start up the Fliball party and see how many people you can get on board for your agenda. It might be difficult to find a spot for your Ard Fheis, now that most telephone boxes have been dismantles.
    salonfire wrote: »
    Looks like property taxes will be going up anyway. That's only one side of the equation though. Spending has to be brought under control as well.

    Maybe the lower paid will have to pay their fair share of income tax but how feasible is that going to be? Might be easier to target the low paid than public sector payroll.
    Or may we should be looking at the overall tax take, and not just income tax when making these decisions?
    fliball123 wrote: »
    No I would like a decent service for the money you pay is that ok with you. I was obviously highlighting the case that public services have no pressure on them to be good bad or indifferent and there is absolutely no pressure to make the service efficient. Private sector you have a bad service or if the company is run inefficiently you will find your self out of work as the company you work for will go bust.

    The health service has been starved of resources for decades. It's not going to be fixed in a year or two - it will take a generation or two.

    And then some fool will come in and cut everything back, and we'll be back to square one.


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    #3570
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    fliball123 wrote: »
    I havent left yet as they have not raised taxes yet. I would be careful as if a significant number do what I plan to do it will not end well for paying the bill when the money is running to another country

    I think we'll be fine.

    Tbh, we could do with losing a good few of your and your dogmatic ilk.

    That being said why not get moving now, but you strike me the sort that's all fart and no shít tbh.


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    #3571
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    You should really start up the Fliball party and see how many people you can get on board for your agenda. It might be difficult to find a spot for your Ard Fheis, now that most telephone boxes have been dismantles.


    Or may we should be looking at the overall tax take, and not just income tax when making these decisions?


    The health service has been starved of resources for decades. It's not going to be fixed in a year or two - it will take a generation or two.

    And then some fool will come in and cut everything back, and we'll be back to square one.


    Yet when our HSE is compared international in what is spent on it and the level of service we get it does not add up. Just a few links for you to get your teeth into


    https://www.sinnfein.ie/ga/contents/44404

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/state-among-highest-spenders-on-health-per-person-in-oecd-1.3547256?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fstate-among-highest-spenders-on-health-per-person-in-oecd-1.3547256

    https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2021/0514/1221519-hospital-it-problem/

    https://www.thejournal.ie/varadkar-hse-crutches-4124530-Jul2018/

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/hse-must-deliver-better-service-for-record-funding-donnelly-1.4410697

    https://www.thejournal.ie/hse-service-plan-3-4935878-Dec2019/

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40261859.html

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40232897.html


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