Public service pay cut?

daithi7

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The health service has been starved of resources for decades. It's not going to be fixed in a year or two - it will take a generation or two.

And then some fool will come in and cut everything back, and we'll be back to square one.

Ireland has spent in the top decile on health in the OECD for several decades now.

For this we get outcomes in the lowest decile ((source OECD 2016).

And here's the rub, this worst in OECD performance is "attained" with one of youngest demographics in the OECD.

I.e. Ireland has the worst value for money health service in the developed world. (Source OECD benchmarking study on health systems and outcomes 2016)

fliball123

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I think we'll be fine.

Tbh, we could do with losing a good few of your and your dogmatic ilk.

That being said why not get moving now, but you strike me the sort that's all fart and no shít tbh.

Once again attacking the man and not the post it shows you have no argument to fact.

BonnieSituation

fliball123 wrote: »

You have zero credibility you have provided no fact to base your argument on. Its just a someone else will pay leave our pay alone. Attack the posts not the man please if you have anything fact base to back up your we can borrow for ever argument please show us?

What argument?

I think you're full of crap and haven't a notion of what you're talking about.

My evidence for this is is your post history on this subject.

fliball123

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What argument?

I think you're full of crap and haven't a notion of what you're talking about.

My evidence for this is is your post history on this subject.

So once again no argument I think I will just ignore your posts going forward as you dont try to engage in any meaningful debate and when facts are given you ignore them and play the man

daithi7

And why is our health service such poor value for money?

We vastly overpay public sector workers in salaries and gold plated pensions . E.g. every Garda in the country will get the equivalent of a lottery win on retirement after age 50!! Like wtf!?

Secondly, there is no real accountability in the public sector and productivity there is pitiful.

E.g. back log in forestry licences, planning process, general speed & efficiency of government departments.

The IMF left Ireland in 2013 recommending 3 things:

- reform of the public sector
- reform of the health service in particular
- reform of the opaque & expensive legal system

Ireland has not done anything meaningful under any of those of headings in the 7 years since they left. That's truly pathetic.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Yet when our HSE is compared international in what is spent on it and the level of service we get it does not add up. Just a few links for you to get your teeth into


https://www.sinnfein.ie/ga/contents/44404

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/state-among-highest-spenders-on-health-per-person-in-oecd-1.3547256?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fstate-among-highest-spenders-on-health-per-person-in-oecd-1.3547256

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2021/0514/1221519-hospital-it-problem/

https://www.thejournal.ie/varadkar-hse-crutches-4124530-Jul2018/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/hse-must-deliver-better-service-for-record-funding-donnelly-1.4410697

https://www.thejournal.ie/hse-service-plan-3-4935878-Dec2019/

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40261859.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40232897.html

Do any of those links look at the historical under-funding over past decades?

daithi7 wrote: »

Ireland has spent in the top decile on health in the OECD for several decades now.

Source please?

BonnieSituation

fliball123 wrote: »

So once again no argument I think I will just ignore your posts going forward as you dont try to engage in any meaningful debate and when facts are given you ignore them and play the man

Please don't ignore me. 😂😂😂😂

There's no arguing any of your points though. You haven't got a grasp of basic economics. What more can we say to you?

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do any of those links look at the historical under-funding over past decades?


Source please?

I find it hard to take you serious when you argue that previous deficits in this area should be taken into account and then ignoring the fact that public sector pay and pensions bill ballooned by more than double pre-08 and yet pay restoration should be considered but only from the period after cuts where made. So which format do you want to follow?

fliball123

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Please don't ignore me. ��������

There's no arguing any of your points though. You haven't got a grasp of basic economics. What more can we say to you?

You have said lots but proved nothing

BonnieSituation

How do you get any work done I wonder? Handy number you have.

Geuze

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Y
The health service has been starved of resources for decades. It's not going to be fixed in a year or two - it will take a generation or two.

For the last decade at least, there has been huge spending in healthcare, overspending relative to the age profile of our population.

Geuze

daithi7 wrote: »

And why is our health service such poor value for money?

We vastly overpay public sector workers in salaries and gold plated pensions . E.g. every Garda in the country will get the equivalent of a lottery win on retirement after age 50!! Like wtf!?

Secondly, there is no real accountability in the public sector and productivity there is pitiful.

E.g. back log in forestry licences, planning process, general speed & efficiency of government departments.

The IMF left Ireland in 2013 recommending 3 things:

- reform of the public sector
- reform of the health service in particular
- reform of the opaque & expensive legal system

Ireland has not done anything meaningful under any of those of headings in the 7 years since they left. That's truly pathetic.

It's not just pay rates.

We have 49-54 hosps, too many.

When the eight health boards merged into HSE, Bertie Ahern did a deal with the unions, no jobs lost.

We overpay for drugs, not enough use of generics

Massive duplication, within 15km of spire in Dublin there is multiple duplication

Hosps are run by "the doctors and the unions" - vested interests.

And so on, and so on.

salonfire

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do any of those links look at the historical under-funding over past decades?

Are you saying that the Health spend on capital vs current is much higher than would be expected as a result of the previous underspend? Any source on that?

daithi7

OECD health spending, poorest outcomes
BY: MICHAEL HENNIGANCATEGORY: IRISH ECONOMY
Ireland has the second-highest health spending ratio in OECD area which comprises of 34 mainly developed countries but it has some of the worst health outcomes among advanced countries.

http://www.finfacts.ie/Irish_finance...t-outcomes-506

AndrewJRenko

salonfire wrote: »

Are you saying that the Health spend on capital vs current is much higher than would be expected as a result of the previous underspend? Any source on that?

I'm saying that when you underfund a service for decades, it takes decades of overfunding to get it back on an even keel.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/healthcare-funding-5265801-Dec2020/

Historic underspend: Brian Turner, the UCC health economist, has argued that our healthcare system has been historically underfunded and we are living with the memory of this dis-investment. The under-funding and lack of capital investment in the 1980s and 1990s profoundly impacted the ability of our services to cope with the arrival of modern medicine after the millennium (see Point 2 in the above figure).

Geuze wrote: »

It's not just pay rates.

We have 49-54 hosps, too many.

When the eight health boards merged into HSE, Bertie Ahern did a deal with the unions, no jobs lost.

We overpay for drugs, not enough use of generics

Massive duplication, within 15km of spire in Dublin there is multiple duplication

Hosps are run by "the doctors and the unions" - vested interests.

And so on, and so on.

Doctors and unions? It's usually the gombeen local politicians who are up in arms whenever any closure or reconfiguration of services is considered.
I agree with you on the massive duplication. We should have one ED in Dublin.

Geuze wrote: »

For the last decade at least, there has been huge spending in healthcare, overspending relative to the age profile of our population.

Spending was cut back between 2009 and 2014 and still hasn't recovered.

fliball123 wrote: »

I find it hard to take you serious when you argue that previous deficits in this area should be taken into account and then ignoring the fact that public sector pay and pensions bill ballooned by more than double pre-08 and yet pay restoration should be considered but only from the period after cuts where made. So which format do you want to follow?

It's almost as if healthcare funding and public sector salaries are different issues, eh?

salonfire

daithi7 wrote: »

OECD health spending, poorest outcomes
BY: MICHAEL HENNIGANCATEGORY: IRISH ECONOMY
Ireland has the second-highest health spending ratio in OECD area which comprises of 34 mainly developed countries but it has some of the worst health outcomes among advanced countries.

http://www.finfacts.ie/Irish_finance...t-outcomes-506

So where is the money going that is producing the poor outcomes? According to some posters here, it's not the staff. Everything is perfect there. Is it the drugs and equipment that's not working? Why is the health service full of non working drugs and equipment?

Maybe some of the experts can shed some light on this peculiar situation of perfect staff but poor systems output.

Geuze

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Doctors and unions? It's usually the gombeen local politicians who are up in arms whenever any closure or reconfiguration of services is considered.
I agree with you on the massive duplication. We should have one ED in Dublin.

I agree.

Geuze

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Spending was cut back between 2009 and 2014 and still hasn't recovered.

PS pay was cut twice during 2009-2012, with other pay cuts also, so nominal spending may have fallen. I don't have that data.

I can see the SHA since 2013

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/governmentaccounts/systemofhealthaccounts/

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/sha/systemofhealthaccounts2015/

The SHA show increases from 2013.

2013 current public exp = 13,173m
2018 = 16,590

Over five years, a rise of 3.4 billion, or 26%

Traumadoc

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm saying that when you underfund a service for decades, it takes decades of overfunding to get it back on an even keel.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/healthcare-funding-5265801-Dec2020/



Doctors and unions? It's usually the gombeen local politicians who are up in arms whenever any closure or reconfiguration of services is considered.
I agree with you on the massive duplication. We should have one ED in Dublin.
?

If they did reconfiguration properly there would be more buy in , certainly trying to pretend that it saves money ( it does not) needs to stop.

Reconfiguration in Ireland so far has been a disaster with the exception of cancer care.

AndrewJRenko

Geuze wrote: »

PS pay was cut twice during 2009-2012, with other pay cuts also, so nominal spending may have fallen. I don't have that data.

I can see the SHA since 2013

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/governmentaccounts/systemofhealthaccounts/

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/sha/systemofhealthaccounts2015/

The SHA show increases from 2013.

2013 current public exp = 13,173m
2018 = 16,590

Over five years, a rise of 3.4 billion, or 26%

Five years doesn't tell you much. You need to be looking back over 50 years.

gameoverdude

Actually, usual pedantic me...owned by the same company. Hate both, but have to go in for godiva chocolates for herself.

Edit: penny's make WAY more money.

Signore Fancy Pants

fliball123 wrote: »

The facts of them being paid 27% more than the private sector dont back the first part of your post up. But I agree with the increments based on performance part

Ah not everyone in the PS is paid 27% more than the private sector.

Come off it.

fliball123

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Ah not everyone in the PS is paid 27% more than the private sector.

Come off it.

Never said they were I said on average. so some are paid more and a lot more than 27% and some are paid less and a lot less than the average

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Never said they were I said on average. so some are paid more and a lot more than 27% and some are paid less and a lot less than the average

On average, people in Google are paid more than people in Tesco.

BonnieSituation

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

On average, people in Google are paid more than people in Tesco.

In real terms everyone in our public sector is paid more than everyone who's unemployed.

gameoverdude

BonnieSituation wrote:

In real terms everyone in our public sector is paid more than everyone who's unemployed.

I'm at a loss with this.

Burkie1203

fliball123 wrote: »

Never said they were I said on average. so some are paid more and a lot more than 27% and some are paid less and a lot less than the average

Public sector would have a higher percentage of staff with third level education. Compared to private sector. So of course the average wage is higher.

AndrewJRenko

gameoverdude wrote: »

I'm at a loss with this.

You're right, so many meaningless, pointless comparisons on this thread.

Happydays2020

What is an appropriate cut for public servants? 10/20/30%. Do we have the same cuts for nurses, Guards, firemen as we do for consultants, senior public servants, clerical officers, engineers?

Happydays2020

Happydays2020 wrote: »

What is an appropriate cut for public servants? 10/20/30%. Do we have the same cuts for nurses, Guards, firemen as we do for consultants, senior public servants, clerical officers, engineers?

sure all us clerical officer on 400 or so a week are living it up big time over our peons in the private sector /s