Public service pay cut?

BonnieSituation

Kyleigh Damp Schoolteacher wrote: »

sure all us clerical officer on 400 or so a week are living it up big time over our peons in the private sector /s

I hope you're buying coffee from your wodge of cash?

Happydays2020

Happydays2020 wrote: »

What is an appropriate cut for public servants? 10/20/30%. Do we have the same cuts for nurses, Guards, firemen as we do for consultants, senior public servants, clerical officers, engineers?

Fliball has been invited to give a presentation to the government next week on this very subject.

Hopefully he will report back here on the recommendations or else we will read it in the Sunday indo.

salonfire

Kyleigh Damp Schoolteacher wrote: »

sure all us clerical officer on 400 or so a week are living it up big time over our peons in the private sector /s

Yes actually, you are.

You'd probably be earning less as a clerk in the private sector. Even if you're paid the same, the private sector clerk would be stuck on 400 for years, while each year your salary goes up with increments.

Why do you think that there is such competition to join as COs. Look at some of the comments in Work and Jobs forum, people in retail, etc desperate to get in and see the salary, after a few years anyway, as a step up from current salary.

salonfire

SortingYouOut wrote: »

I moved across from the private sector (entry level admin in this company) to CO, purely because I had to move to Dublin for personal reasons and the CO competition was handy to do remotely until interview. I lost 10k to start, had a better pension in the private sector (civil service pension isn't worth a ****e anymore), free health insurance is now gone, and in my private sector role I had a yearly increase in salary which worked out at about 1000 extra per year or more. I also got a bonus in the private sector.

I'm now working for much much less, the yearly increments won't see me to where I was in the private sector for another 15 years or so, which in that time I'd still be on more if I stayed in the private job anyway. The work is much harder, with immense day to day pressure and I have increased outgoings due to having to live in Dublin and pay full price for medical.

I'm planning on taking up a position in the private sector again, as the quality of life is just much better given all the benefits and better pay. There's an abundance of jobs out there as well.

Your example might ring true for a small handful of jobs but most private sector admin roles have far more bang for buck.

In multinationals, yes admin staff there are better off than the civil/public service.

But in SMEs, that make up 75% of employment, clerks and admin are paid much less.

As for your pension comment, there are lower rates for new entrants and high thresholds which means that you are not paying all that much as pension contributions.

Treppen

salonfire wrote: »

Yes actually, you are.

You'd probably be earning less as a clerk in the private sector. Even if you're paid the same, the private sector clerk would be stuck on 400 for years, while each year your salary goes up with increments.

Why do you think that there is such competition to join as COs. Look at some of the comments in Work and Jobs forum, people in retail, etc desperate to get in and see the salary, after a few years anyway, as a step up from current salary.

Then why doesn't the private sector clerk apply to the public sector?

Anyway, we actually need clerks in the public sector. Would you prefer a free market with clerks hoping around from public into private?

salonfire

Treppen wrote: »

Then why doesn't the private sector clerk apply to the public sector?

They are. In huge competitions.

The line spun by this particular poster is just another example of the spin, lies and Beal bocht from the PS which actually flies in the face of actual proven facts.

Lower grades are better paid than most of their private sector counterparts.

mariaalice

salonfire wrote: »

They are. In huge competitions.

The line spun by this particular poster is just another example of the spin, lies and Beal bocht from the PS which actually flies in the face of actual proven facts.

Lower grades are better paid than most of their private sector counterparts.

Genuine question if you are not trolling why are you obsessed with the public service, nursing, teaching, and the like. In my family, it about half in public sector employment and half in private sector employment so can see exactly want the difference is.

Treppen

salonfire wrote: »

They are. In huge competitions.

The line spun by this particular poster is just another example of the spin, lies and Beal bocht from the PS which actually flies in the face of actual proven facts.

Lower grades are better paid than most of their private sector counterparts.

So what do u want?


Pay them less in line with private sector (but you're not happy with how low the privateer sector pay!!)?

Or

Pay the private sector worker more in line with public sector? In which case you would have to accept that the public sector worker is being paid sufficiently?

Either way you still wouldn't be happy.

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm saying that when you underfund a service for decades, it takes decades of overfunding to get it back on an even keel.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/healthcare-funding-5265801-Dec2020/



Doctors and unions? It's usually the gombeen local politicians who are up in arms whenever any closure or reconfiguration of services is considered.
I agree with you on the massive duplication. We should have one ED in Dublin.


Spending was cut back between 2009 and 2014 and still hasn't recovered.



It's almost as if healthcare funding and public sector salaries are different issues, eh?

Last time I checked 70- 80% of what goes into the HSE is ring-fenced for wages so healthcare funding and public sector wage are not that different after all

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

On average, people in Google are paid more than people in Tesco.

You have a choice to not use google or tesco so you dont have to pay them for their profits or their employees. Its your choice

fliball123

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Public sector would have a higher percentage of staff with third level education. Compared to private sector. So of course the average wage is higher.

Really well travel back in time to 2000 when the private sector was on average paid more. which is why bench marking was done (twice) and its not common on a global scare even our nearest neighbor have the private sector .3% ahead while the public sector here are 27% ahead. So why are our qualified staff in the public sector 27.3% more valuable than the UKs?

fliball123

Happydays2020 wrote: »

What is an appropriate cut for public servants? 10/20/30%. Do we have the same cuts for nurses, Guards, firemen as we do for consultants, senior public servants, clerical officers, engineers?

At the moment I would say leave them but no payrises until we know the true extent of the economy when corona goes, if the economy is ganbbusters and as a country we no longer have to borrow or increase taxes then give payrises where they are deserved within the public sector.

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

Fliball has been invited to give a presentation to the government next week on this very subject.

Hopefully he will report back here on the recommendations or else we will read it in the Sunday indo.

Once again attack the post your jibes show you for what you are you have no answer to the facts. As I say I predict the ps will not be getting their next payrise not while the ERSI are looking for an increase in taxes. It will be a funny conversation the politicians giving themselves a payrise and asking for everyone else to pay more.

mariaalice

fliball123 wrote: »

Once again attack the post your jibes show you for what you are you have no answer to the facts. As I say I predict the ps will not be getting their next payrise not while the ERSI are looking for an increase in taxes. It will be a funny conversation the politicians giving themselves a payrise and asking for everyone else to pay more.

I think you will find public servants pay tax as well.

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

Once again attack the post your jibes show you for what you are you have no answer to the facts. As I say I predict the ps will not be getting their next payrise not while the ERSI are looking for an increase in taxes. It will be a funny conversation the politicians giving themselves a payrise and asking for everyone else to pay more.

I will be proven correct the pay rise will go ahead.

Btw I don’t engage in the detail of these discussions I wasted too much time and energy in the past. It’s just people talking past each other nobody changes their position an inch no matter what.

You are obsessed by PS pay and are willing to spend all day debating it for some reason?? No way am I wasting my time like that.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

You have a choice to not use google or tesco so you dont have to pay them for their profits or their employees. Its your choice

You previously agreed that the matter of choice was irrelevant so I don't know why you keep banging that particular drum. You have the choice to vote for the government you choose. Your problem is that most people disagree with you, and that's democracy.

salonfire wrote: »

As for your pension comment, there are lower rates for new entrants and high thresholds which means that you are not paying all that much as pension contributions.

Good to know, given that new entrants are not getting all that much back as pension payments.

fliball123 wrote: »

Really well travel back in time to 2000 when the private sector was on average paid more. which is why bench marking was done (twice) and its not common on a global scare even our nearest neighbor have the private sector .3% ahead while the public sector here are 27% ahead. So why are our qualified staff in the public sector 27.3% more valuable than the UKs?

More meaningless comparisons, given the different structures and different levels of outsourcing.

fliball123 wrote: »

At the moment I would say leave them but no payrises until we know the true extent of the economy when corona goes, if the economy is ganbbusters and as a country we no longer have to borrow or increase taxes then give payrises where they are deserved within the public sector.

Fortunately, what you say is of no relevance, or no more relevance than any other vote at the ballot box.

salonfire

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Good to know, given that new entrants are not getting all that much back as pension payments.

We don't hear that though. All we hear is how terrible the pension is and how much it is costing the employees.

It is only by digging into the calculations, as I have done, that the truth emerges.

The public sector proproganda machine, including their own RTE correspondent, paint a very different light.

Even one of the most balanced and factual posters here swindled the "substantial contribution" line until challenged.

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

I will be proven correct the pay rise will go ahead.

Btw I don’t engage in the detail of these discussions I wasted too much time and energy in the past. It’s just people talking past each other nobody changes their position an inch no matter what.

You are obsessed by PS pay and are willing to spend all day debating it for some reason?? No way am I wasting my time like that.

No I am obsessed with what I will be expected to pay for public sector pay and not just that but other spend the country have that have a lot of waste in them. Sure look no point arguing who will be right about the next ps payrise we will see what happens when its due

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You previously agreed that the matter of choice was irrelevant so I don't know why you keep banging that particular drum. You have the choice to vote for the government you choose. Your problem is that most people disagree with you, and that's democracy.


Good to know, given that new entrants are not getting all that much back as pension payments.


More meaningless comparisons, given the different structures and different levels of outsourcing.

Fortunately, what you say is of no relevance, or no more relevance than any other vote at the ballot box.

When did I say choice was irrelevant?? Choice for who you vote for is a lot different to how you spend your money and the choice in service provided by public and private sector. In the public sector in a lot of services you have no choice but to use an overly expensive and outdated and not fit for puurpose service and in the private sector if you are outlined with the same criteria for choosing you will have a choice to use a different competitor. So stop making sh1t up , your really spinning taking my post of saying I have no option for voting for a political party equaling I have the choice for paying for a service in the private sector as apposed to having no option but to pay for public services.


So globally the private sector is ahead in the majority of countries and its a meaningless comparison REALLY? Is it that it just does not suit your narrative? The comparison to the private sector is there and with the UK is there for all to see how far ahead the Irish public sector are.

Well you will see a lot more of people with my opinion popping up when their pocket is being hit with taxes and seeing our glorious 300k in the public sector getting pay rises at the same time.

tayto lover

fliball123 wrote: »

No I am obsessed with what I will be expected to pay for public sector pay and not just that but other spend the country have that have a lot of waste in them. Sure look no point arguing who will be right about the next ps payrise we will see what happens when its due

Jesus you need to calm down and take a break from this before you become ill.
You’ve been beating this drum for years now and getting nowhere.
I’m serious.

combat14

time for massive public sector pay rises inflation, rent incrrses and house price rises are rampant again

AndrewJRenko

salonfire wrote: »

We don't hear that though. All we hear is how terrible the pension is and how much it is costing the employees.

It is only by digging into the calculations, as I have done, that the truth emerges.

The public sector proproganda machine, including their own RTE correspondent, paint a very different light.

Even one of the most balanced and factual posters here swindled the "substantial contribution" line until challenged.

We certainly don't hear about the very modest pension that new entrants will end up. We hear plenty of commentators on RTE going on about the 'gold plated pension'. [I'm looking at you, Eddie's Hobbs and Molloy].

salonfire

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

We certainly don't hear about the very modest pension that new entrants will end up. We hear plenty of commentators on RTE going on about the 'gold plated pension'. [I'm looking at you, Eddie's Hobbs and Molloy].

For people on the older schemes, it is very much gold plated. Some don't even have to pay the full PRSI rate.

I haven't heard many saying the new scheme as gold plated. People have pretty much accepted pensions are going to be vastly reduced for everyone. In amount or by eligibility age.

Geuze

salonfire wrote: »

For people on the older schemes, it is very much gold plated. Some don't even have to pay the full PRSI rate.

PS hired pre April 95 do not pay full-rate PRSI, and do not get social insurance benefits.

No State Pension, no illness benefit, no JSB.

fliball123

tayto lover wrote: »

Jesus you need to calm down and take a break from this before you become ill.
You’ve been beating this drum for years now and getting nowhere.
I’m serious.

As long as we are staring down tax increases (according to the ERSI) while the public sector are basically getting that amount in a pay rises I wont calm down.

We will see once the pandemic is over and the true nature of how good / bad or ugly our economy is and what we are dealing with is in full view without any corona to worry about its then that the government will have to make hard decisions

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

As long as we are staring down tax increases (according to the ERSI) while the public sector are basically getting that amount in a pay rises I wont calm down.

The planned payrises are:

2021 = 1%
2022 = 1%

Current CPI inflation is 1.1%, and expected to rise.

Real wages in the PS are falling.

Meanwhile, average weekly earnings in other sectors are as follows:
(2020 Q4 data)

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq32020finalq42020preliminaryestimates/

See table 1.

Industry + 5.4%
Construction +3.9%
ICT + 8.4%

It looks like the Govt used the pandemic to negotiate low increases in nominal wages, while earnings outside the PS rise faster.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

The planned payrises are:

2021 = 1%
2022 = 1%

Current CPI inflation is 1.1%, and expected to rise.

Real wages in the PS are falling.

Meanwhile, average weekly earnings in other sectors are as follows:
(2020 Q4 data)

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq32020finalq42020preliminaryestimates/

See table 1.

Industry + 5.4%
Construction +3.9%
ICT + 8.4%

It looks like the Govt used the pandemic to negotiate low increases in nominal wages, while earnings outside the PS rise faster.

So do these figures include the nearly half a million private sector employees forced onto PUP payments over the last 12/18 months?

I reckon when you bring their pay into the equation as a whole on average the private sector are still behind in pay. Before i get "but they were not working and part of the people claiming welfare", I think the fact that not one public sector employee was put on PUP means they should be included in this debate as they were forced to stop working.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/almost-460-000-people-now-in-receipt-of-pandemic-payment-1.4461432

The other important question is do you think all of those on pup will have a job to go back into? This question is the one that needs to be answered before any pay rises go ahead. I find it irresponsible to be making any additional spend or promises while this unknown in particular is hanging around.

Just checked.

Pay not cut yet.

Will report back in in a fortnight.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

I find it irresponsible to be making any additional spend or promises while this unknown in particular is hanging around.

I agree with much that you say.

And so do the Fiscal Council.


https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0525/1223841-irish-fiscal-advisory-council/


https://www.fiscalcouncil.ie/fiscal-assessment-report-may-2021/


One quote:

"However, the Government’s medium-term forecasts are
poorly founded. The Government’s spending projections
for later years assume current spending grows by 3.5 per
cent every year. This does not reflect the full cost of price
inflation and ageing on spending. The forecasts for
government investment are much higher than in the
Government’s capital plan. Income tax receipts are forecast
to grow unrealistically fast, given plans to raise tax credits
and bands. And there is little or no detail on the other
policy costs beyond 2021. This includes the major
Sláintecare reforms to healthcare."

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

I find it irresponsible to be making any additional spend or promises while this unknown in particular is hanging around.

https://www.fiscalcouncil.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Non-Technical-Summary.pdf

The non-technical summary says:

"Large permanent increases in spending, unrelated to Covid-19, were not prudent. Budget 2021 included large
permanent increases in spending of at least €5.4 billion. There was no long-term funding set out for this. It means
that much of the “fiscal space” that growth in the economy would have provided by 2025 is already used up."

And then people say that the State underspends!!!!