Public service pay cut?

smelly sock

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The lump sum is nothing to do with public/private sector. All pension recipients can take a 25% of the value of their fund as a lump sum. It’s just a different way of paying the benefit.

Yes, different average salaries, just like apples and oranges have different average colours and bicycles and cars have different average speeds. When you compare different things, you see differences.

You can come to whatever conclusion you like for your own opinions, but if you want to persuade others, you’ll need some facts. Just in case you didn’t notice, the low flexibility/efficiency/agility sector has moved tens of thousands of staff to work from home over the course of a few weeks, introduced a new social welfare benefit being paid to tens of thousands of recipients and a rake of other changes too.

This is a dramatic over-simplification of pension rules. You get credit for time spent on home caring duties. You start to qualify for pension with 10 contributions per year.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/older_and_retired_people/state_pension_contributory.html

You really have little clue about what is going on. You are blaming public servants for political decisions to underinvest in healthcare, in rail infrastructure and in public transport.
Here’s a typical customer feedback on passport renewal, btw;
https://twitter.com/Drumberny/status/1239576961346928640
The nurses who you blame for their work practices are changing practices every day. A huge amount of technology is being rolled out in hospitals every day under the eHealth programme, but you’re too busy taking cheap shots to notice.

Do you have a source for that HEO alignment please?

Maybe that’s because their HSE colleagues have worked out that applying manufacturing techniques like Lean to a healthcare environment is very questionable. John Seddon provides some interesting insights on these mistakes;
https://vanguard-method.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/lean-is-a-wicked-disease.pdf

We’re not in the 1980s now.

How would that help? And if they took 25%, would you be calling for them to take 40%. It’s a pointless gesture, designed to distract from the real issues.

You can say what you like, but unless you have professional experience running HSE units, you’d be best to say very little in telling people what to do. Would you be OK with HSE people coming into your workplace and telling you what to do ?

Very few dentists in the public sector, and not a huge number of architects either. But how exactly did you decide that they are underpaid and overworked, or did you hear it once on Newstalk?

Shocker – some professional people who spent years developing their careers were well paid. I know some retired private professionals who are getting paid ten times for not working what shop workers are paid for working. And you funded their pensions when you bought a bank product or a phone product or a tech product.

The only reason your private pension would be ‘wiped out’ would be if you chose to put it in a high-risk fund to chase high returns. If you don’t want your pension to be wiped out, put it in bonds or low-risk funds. It’s your fund – you’re responsibe for the returns, so don’t expect public sector staff to fund your investment gambling.

Let’s not rely on Facebook posts as providing any reliable information about current affairs.

That ‘no tax disk’ proposal didn’t work out too well in the UK. What percentage of Garda cars have ANPR? How quick can they do an ANPR read compared to looking at your tax disk at a checkpoint?

It’s not still the case.

We certainly still have the PRD levy imposed on public servants in 2008.

Post of the day without a doubt, if not the Month.

thomasdylan

LillySV wrote: »

What’s full time hours to u? I’m sure current emergency services personnel might consider your hours like a half day...

Lots of Staff in c service working well over their hours at moment to keep the country running and losing the hours... not getting paid for them or gettin to keep the hours for a later period as flexi hours system gone...

Yeah I am one of those frontline people. Usually 60-65+ hours a week. I don't think anyone should work those kind of hours though.

Why have you brought up frontline staff when I said that the PS staff you said had been working an extra 30mins a day were only working 35 hours a week before that. That's nothing to do with emergency services is it? The PS isn't a homogenous entity where everyone has the same hours and conditions. You can't refer to frontliners whenever there's an issue with some ridiculous practice elsewhere in the public sector.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Why is it such a source of pride to work longer hours. What is wrong with a 35 hr week. Instead of lambasting a 35 or 37 hr week for public servants why not push for it in the private sector. Are we big supposed to be more efficient and productive with technology in 2020.

When the extra half hour was introduced I had an argument with a friend of mine. "Good", he said, "You're finally doing a full week's work".

Turns out his "full week's work" was a 9-5, from Monday to Friday.
8hrs a day x 5 days
"What about your lunch break?", says I.
"We get an hour, though sometimes we take less and leave early"
"So your full week then is actually only 35 hrs when you deduct the 5 hrs of lunches / clocking off early"
"Yeah, but what about your own lunch then?"
"We have to clock out for those, they don't count towards the 37.5 hrs"

---

silence

---

"What would you say if your boss just runed around and said 'I need you to stick around until half 5 now every day, with no extra pay , from tomorrow until forever?"

---

even more silence

---

Hotblack Desiato

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you have a source for that HEO alignment please?

Yes

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/politicians-pay-1.170992

Politicians' Pay

Wed, Jul 8, 1998, 01:00


Sir, - The Fianna Fail chairman of the Members Services Sub-Committee wants to place TDs on an incremental scale linked to the civil service pay structure so that TDs' pay would be fairer!

TDs' pay and allowances have always been linked to civil servants' pay. In the 1970s, they were linked to the Higher Executive Officer pay rates, in current terms approximately £26,000 max. In the 1980s, they were linked to Assistant Principal Officer rates, in current terms approximately £36,000 max, and in the 1990s, they are linked to Principal Officer rates, approximately £43,000.

Unlike Mr Tony Killeen, I consider this to be a matter of great public concern. This incremental inflationary linkage to selected civil service pay rates is obviously a one-way relationship and surely bears comparison with Caligula's granting a consulship to his horse.

Not alone is their pay excessive but the number of TDs is excessive; their junketeering is excessive; their egos are excessive if they think the public does not care; and, worst of all, their corruption is excessive as the public has found out to its cost.

Next time Mr Killeen places himself before the electorate, he should tell his constituents what he represents, viz more taxes so that he and all those TDs who agree with him can be paid more. - Yours, etc., Mari Barrett,

Castlegar,

Galway.

Some more background:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/politicians-pay-1.394251

Politicians' pay
Sat, Nov 22, 2003, 00:00

At a time when the Coalition Government is demanding modernisation and cutbacks within the public service, it must reform its own affairs. For many years, Ministers and Oireachtas members were poorly paid. One of the reasons was that their pay awards had to be ratified by the Dáil and Seanad. And governments were reluctant to annoy the electorate by proposing increases for themselves. The old system came to an end following the Buckley report of 1998. The pay of TDs and senators was increased substantially and linked to that of principal officers in the civil service. Since then, however, a range of new and generous allowances for additional Oireachtas responsibilities has been introduced. And the old expenses system, which was used to prop up inadequate salaries during hard times, has been left unreformed.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/informal-talks-underway-in-nurses-row-1.806005

Informal talks underway in nurses row
Sun, Apr 22, 2007, 01:00


The Minister also defended politicians' pay adding that it was linked to pay rates for the most senior civil servants. Since 1997 a TD's salary has gone up by €65,000 while the wages a minister earns increased by €90,000.

Danzy

mariaalice wrote: »

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

I think there are very few economists who are advocating pay cuts in this time.

There is going to be a severe challenge to get people spending at all after this.

Giving them reason to be fearful about income is not going to help that.

Dylan94

Danzy wrote: »

I think there are very few economists who are advocating pay cuts in this time.

There is going to be a severe challenge to get people spending at all after this.

Giving them reason to be fearful about income is not going to help that.

I agree, I think that if anything public service pay will increase as planned in October and once again in January once the new deal is done. Leo has spoke a number of times now of expanding the public service.

This is very different to last time, they will want to increase spending (both government spending and personal spending). Cutting public servants pay will essentially give the green light for the private sector to cut their pay (those that don't actually need to). This would cause much longer lasting damage to our economy than the coronavirus did.

I also think that a lot of people forget that one of the reasons for good pay and conditions in the public sector is to raise the wages and conditions of everyone. If you can get a job on better pay and better conditions from the government then you are going to take it. If business want to ensure that they are able to get employees then they will have to improve their pay or conditions or both to attract people.

LRNM

J DEERE wrote: »

Ya know I've always had an issue with the term "unskilled". Every job no matter how menial requires a certain amount or level of skill to complete.

Also, you're getting exactly what you signed up for. You made a decision when you took on your position to be a frontline worker. As did guards, nurses, doctors etc. That means running towards the fire when others are running away from it. Supermarket workers didn't. I'm sure you were aware of the job requirements when you took it.

I agree. I worked unskilled minimum wage jobs for years and i have more respect for fast food and retail workers than I do for most other professions. It's back breaking work and deserves to be paid far far higher.

Regarding your other point, I didn't sign up for pay cuts. And with that kind of logic then we'd have no nurses, paramedics, guards etc if the typical ignoramus response of "if you dont like the pay work somewhere else" was taken literally by everyone.

It's a vocation that requires interest and compassion for the job. If I didn't actually like the job and have an interest in caring for people and working with the community so much I'd be gone long ago.

With your logic I could easily trot out "supermarket workers knew what they were signing up for when dealing with irate people abusing them all day".

It's flawed to the core.

LillySV

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So what do you want - two states? The Thatcherite dream? Being able to switch providers isn't much help when they're all pretty much the same when it comes to price and cost.


I take it you haven't listened to Joe's deep sighs and uninformed attacks on every public service then?


Seeking new employment like this?
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/four-hse-staff-sacked-for-abuse-of-sick-leave-226647.html

Pensions are paid from current expenditure. If we wanted to switch to a DC scheme, we would have to pay pensions of current pensions AND pay contributions to the DC scheme for pensions of current staff for a generation. This is the cash flow issue.

You clearly don't understand the difference between policy and operations. Dept Health sets policy. HSE implements policy. It's not hard really.

And sure, great idea to rule out the consultants - we'll now need to double the size of the civil service so that internal staff can do all that work instead. You're ready to fund that, right?

It's not the cost of government that has risen exponentially like rents and property over recent years.


Have you any actual experience of working in the public sector? Because the picture you paint is very different to my actual experience.



So you want to repeat the benchmarking process of the early 2000s then?


Something like the TD's annual declaration of interests that SIPO publish? Or the lobbying register published each quarter?

Does it surprise you to find that your great proposals have already been done?

Benchmarking tds and ministers ? U think they did a big review of tds and ministers and reformed it to a clear transparent system where they are working hard for the benefit of the public?

In regard to publishing their full earnings, including all their expenses...everything ... shows me where?

Declaration of interests in other companies ... who is doing reviews to check this out ? Who is carrying out audits on them?

addaword

Dylan94 wrote: »

This is very different to last time, they will want to increase spending

Want to do something and being able to do something are 2 different things.

The government will not be able to increase spending any more, they are already having to borrow a massive 30 billion or so this year which they did not budget for. That is unsustainable and spending is unsustainable and will have to be cut. Public sector wages and pensions will have to be brought back down to close to the European average.

da_miser

There will be no pay cuts
Public servants worked during this covid outbreak, some on the front line risking infection and death.
Half the population got to stay home and collect €350 for staying safe, if this was offered to the Public service, how many do you think would have jumped on it?
Any pay cut would be met with ructions and all out strikes, money will be cut from the budget that goes to Quangos, NGO's and other vanity and virtue signaling projects.
If we are lucky the Government will take this golden opportunity to cut the fat from the budget, cut loose all the useless wastes of tax payer money.

Topgear on Dave

There's a big public review of all TDs performance every five years where you can vote them all in or out.

addaword

da_miser wrote: »

There will be no pay cuts

Wait and see, it is inevitable that public sector pay will be brought closer to both private sector pay in Ireland , and public sector pay elsewhere.
The government cannot afford it any more. Most older public servants are earning far more than they can spend. The private sector suffered how many pay cuts and redundancies ?

da_miser

addaword wrote: »

Wait and see, it is inevitable that public sector pay will be brought closer to both private sector pay in Ireland , and public sector pay elsewhere.
The government cannot afford it any more. Most older public servants are earning far more than they can spend. The private sector suffered how many pay cuts and redundancies ?

Not in the life of the next post Covid government, not a chance, the strikes would cripple the country

coolshannagh28

smelly sock wrote: »

Post of the day without a doubt, if not the Month.

A masterclass in deflection , while there is an obvious imbalance between PS and private sector remuneration there is also a divide between the older richer babyboomer generation and the young who are struggling with the impact of two recessions in a short period of time while the ladder is being pulled up .

Danzy

Dylan94 wrote: »

I agree, I think that if anything public service pay will increase as planned in October and once again in January once the new deal is done. Leo has spoke a number of times now of expanding the public service.

This is very different to last time, they will want to increase spending (both government spending and personal spending). Cutting public servants pay will essentially give the green light for the private sector to cut their pay (those that don't actually need to). This would cause much longer lasting damage to our economy than the coronavirus did.

I also think that a lot of people forget that one of the reasons for good pay and conditions in the public sector is to raise the wages and conditions of everyone. If you can get a job on better pay and better conditions from the government then you are going to take it. If business want to ensure that they are able to get employees then they will have to improve their pay or conditions or both to attract people.

The challenge now is to avoid a global depression, by no means certain we will.

If spending cuts and belt tightening is the route taken then it is going to be a certainty.

Conventional is not going to cut it in this.

My business traded with a lot of successful companies in Northern Italy, they are now gone, wiped out.

The scale of the crisis facing Western Europe will be a one in a century event, if aggressive stimulus is applied this can be resolved in 12 months to just a bad downturn.


The damage done economically across Europe makes 2008 seem like a great time.

Lot of people living in bubbles going on about some student getting 350 a week or public sector wages but they refuse to look at the bigger picture.

How removed from reality can one be?

addaword

Danzy wrote: »

Lot of people living in bubbles going on about some student getting 350 a week or public sector wages but they refuse to look at the bigger picture.

Who do you think pays for the students on 350 and who pays for the public sector?

The stimulus will be given to them because they are wiped out otherwise.

Danzy

addaword wrote: »

Wait and see, it is inevitable that public sector pay will be brought closer to both private sector pay in Ireland , and public sector pay elsewhere.
The government cannot afford it any more. Most older public servants are earning far more than they can spend. The private sector suffered how many pay cuts and redundancies ?

You are proposing demand destruction as a solution to a collapse in global demand that probably has never been equalled.

Are you on a war of extermination against SMEs, indeed all businesses?

I'd bet most of those moaning in this thread and the 350 one have never been self employed, never will be.

I've always been.

Hard to hide from the bigger picture then.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

That pension pot worth 1.8 million is nonsense, as it is an individual calculation which takes no account of the fact that a Garda is in a collective pension scheme.

It is like comparing apples and oranges.

Jesus, is it upto 1.8 million now? Grows more than Pinocchio's ****ing nose!

Hotblack Desiato

addaword wrote: »

Wait and see, it is inevitable that public sector pay will be brought closer to both private sector pay in Ireland

Great, I could do with a raise

addaword

addaword wrote: »

Wait and see, it is inevitable that public sector pay will be brought closer to both private sector pay in Ireland , and public sector pay elsewhere.
The government cannot afford it any more. Most older public servants are earning far more than they can spend. The private sector suffered how many pay cuts and redundancies ?

Tell me, how many millionaires are public sector workers?

How many of the to 100 voluntarily disclose their incomes?

How much did Bono as an example, earn on Ireland last year?

This argument is ridiculous, maybe the average Garda earns more the you, maybe the average doctor does but this argument will never be accurate until the reports, numbers and details are fairly calculated.

I again ask if there's any correlation between more pay in the public sector and more hours? Correlation between more pay and more overtime? A Correlation between working holidays and pay? Correlation between more pay and higher levels of education? I know it's a joke about Gardai and bad leaving certs but the actual reality is that most recruits have degrees. Compare that to your average industrial wage earner.

Now also consider who the numbers include. In the public sector it includes the ministers, the big dog Leo, the top people in each sector. Does the private salary inside the owners and managing directors?

I can only compare what I know but even my overtime and holidays, Sundays, nights, etc are removed from the equation I'm not earning much more than my plumber brother. I earn less than my brother in law during in an office but in his defence he's management. I dunno what his staff are on.

And when that's all said and done, I go back to the original point. We all knew the careers out there, we all had the opportunity to further our education and aspire to certain careers. We all, ultimately made our own career choices.

So stop trying to drag the guy next door down to your level, instead use him as an example and climb up.

tastyt

This is a serious question and not an attempt to get under anyone’s skin

According to nurse.org Irish nurses are in the top 5 best paid nurses in the world. I believe it is the same for our police force. Our teachers have much higher rates than other countries too.

I have no problem with them being paid well as it’s a tough job but why are they always complaining about their pay when it is obviously so good compared to almost all other countries in the world.

There will probably be a comeback of starting pay, is lower or nurses in Australia or Dubai or somewhere earn more or have better conditions. Cost of living is another usual one, but we all have the same cost of living in this country whether we work in Google or the local coffee shop.

But is that what it has come to, do our public servants expect to be paid better than any other public servants in the whole world with far larger economies that are not dependent on others half as much as we are? Are we always going to compare ourselves in pay to the no 1 in the world and threaten to strike and bring the country to a standstill if we don’t compare favourably ?

never_mind

blanch152 wrote: »

Is it really possible to cut the pay of nurses in the aftermath of Covid-19?

Yes, I think the increase due in October will be deferred, possibly with a promise of back-payment when the finances allow, and the next deal will not be as generous as previously expected. However, there are many public servants whose rate of pay is still below the 2008 rate - the scope for cuts is therefore limited.

I really feel for nurses; this wasn't the hand they were dealt. Unfortunately, the government can't favour one profession over another. Giving more out to nurses will lead to the Guards asking for the same, then the Fire Brigade, then teachers, then politicians. All will chime in with the 'We've had to work in extreme circumstances'.

I would prefer if corporations and private multinationals would foot some of this bill instead of constantly going after public sector workers who work very hard and above their pay grade to keep essential services going.Facebook is not essential - educating your kids and keeping people well in hospitals is.

addaword

tastyt wrote: »

This is a serious question and not an attempt to get under anyone’s skin

According to nurse.org Irish nurses are in the top 5 best paid nurses in the world. I believe it is the same for our police force. Our teachers have much higher rates than other countries too.

I have no problem with them being paid well as it’s a tough job but why are they always complaining about their pay when it is obviously so good compared to almost all other countries in the world.

There will probably be a comeback of starting pay, is lower or nurses in Australia or Dubai or somewhere earn more or have better conditions. Cost of living is another usual one, but we all have the same cost of living in this country whether we work in Google or the local coffee shop.

But is that what it has come to, do our public servants expect to be paid better than any other public servants in the whole world with far larger economies that are not dependent on others half as much as we are? Are we always going to compare ourselves in pay to the no 1 in the world and threaten to strike and bring the country to a standstill if we don’t compare favourably ?

Excellent question, well put. Some of them do not even acknowledge they are among the 5 best paid in the world. They will instead then deflect to the so called high cost of living here, and then question why did you not join the public service etc.

noodler

We have more nurses than average in the oecd too, despite having a younger population than average.

The IMNO were in the media recently looking for more recruitment.

It doesn't bode well.

12k plus additional people working in the HSE since 2015.

AndrewJRenko

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yes

Thanks, wasn't fully aware of the history. To be honest, the Principal Officer salary is a fairly modest level for a TD imho. If you want to attract smart people who would typically be a director or partner level in any profession, you'd want to be starting at €100k.

tastyt wrote: »

This is a serious question and not an attempt to get under anyone’s skin

According to nurse.org Irish nurses are in the top 5 best paid nurses in the world. I believe it is the same for our police force. Our teachers have much higher rates than other countries too.

I have no problem with them being paid well as it’s a tough job but why are they always complaining about their pay when it is obviously so good compared to almost all other countries in the world.

There will probably be a comeback of starting pay, is lower or nurses in Australia or Dubai or somewhere earn more or have better conditions. Cost of living is another usual one, but we all have the same cost of living in this country whether we work in Google or the local coffee shop.

But is that what it has come to, do our public servants expect to be paid better than any other public servants in the whole world with far larger economies that are not dependent on others half as much as we are? Are we always going to compare ourselves in pay to the no 1 in the world and threaten to strike and bring the country to a standstill if we don’t compare favourably ?

Two main reasons;
1) Irish nurses/teachers have to pay rent at Irish rent prices, not Sydney prices or Melbourne prices. Irish rent prices have climbed dramatically in the last ten years. Salaries for nurses and teachers have not kept up.
2) The main complaint for teachers is the inequality in the current structure for new entrants, rather than the overall levels.

da_miser wrote: »

There will be no pay cuts
Any pay cut would be met with ructions and all out strikes, money will be cut from the budget that goes to Quangos, NGO's and other vanity and virtue signaling projects.
If we are lucky the Government will take this golden opportunity to cut the fat from the budget, cut loose all the useless wastes of tax payer money.

I always think that suggestions like this should include specifics - what particular spending areas are 'useless wastes' in your opinion.

addaword wrote: »

Wait and see, it is inevitable that public sector pay will be brought closer to both private sector pay in Ireland , and public sector pay elsewhere.
The government cannot afford it any more. Most older public servants are earning far more than they can spend. The private sector suffered how many pay cuts and redundancies ?

That'll be interesting for sure - so public servants will be getting Christmas bonuses, stock options and share purchase schemes, paid Christmas parties, paid health insurance, paid disability insurance, paid professional subscriptions and all the other benefits common in the private sector too?

LillySV wrote: »

Benchmarking tds and ministers ? U think they did a big review of tds and ministers and reformed it to a clear transparent system where they are working hard for the benefit of the public?

In regard to publishing their full earnings, including all their expenses...everything ... shows me where?

Declaration of interests in other companies ... who is doing reviews to check this out ? Who is carrying out audits on them?

LillySV wrote: »

Benchmarking tds and ministers ? U think they did a big review of tds and ministers and reformed it to a clear transparent system where they are working hard for the benefit of the public?

In regard to publishing their full earnings, including all their expenses...everything ... shows me where?

Declaration of interests in other companies ... who is doing reviews to check this out ? Who is carrying out audits on them?

LillySV wrote: »

Benchmarking tds and ministers ? U think they did a big review of tds and ministers and reformed it to a clear transparent system where they are working hard for the benefit of the public?

Something like the Buckley report of 1998 mentioned above?

LillySV wrote: »

In regard to publishing their full earnings, including all their expenses...everything ... shows me where?

So you haven't bothered to look at the information currently provided? What's the point in asking for more information when you haven't bothered to look at what's there?

LillySV wrote: »

Declaration of interests in other companies ... who is doing reviews to check this out ? Who is carrying out audits on them?

Now you're shifting the goalposts - it's not just publishing the information, you wan't someone to be paid to 'review' and 'audit' this? The press certainly crawl over the information with a fine toothcomb, but again, if you haven't bothered to study this information yourself, it's a bit rich to be looking for more information so you can ignore it.

addaword

noodler wrote: »

We have more nurses than average in the oecd too, despite having a younger population than average.

The IMNO were in the media recently looking for more recruitment.

It doesn't bode well.

12k plus additional people working in the HSE since 2015.

+1.
According to the Irish Times last year, we spend 20% more expenditure per head of population on the hse than the british do on the NHS, yet we have substantially worse outcomes.

_Brian

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

PS pay and contract quality was hacked well back in last recession and many pay levels have never even gotten back to 2007 levels so your demonstrating that you know f all about what has happened in recent history just to make some stupid point.

It’s an Irish solution to expect front line staff to put their lives on the line during the crisis and then take a hit in pay to cover the cost of keeping the rest of the nation sitting on their hole at home while they worked 🙄

Momey is being borrowed 30 times cheaper now than during the last recession, not borrowing it and throwing essential workers under a bus is stupid.

LillySV

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Thanks, wasn't fully aware of the history. To be honest, the Principal Officer salary is a fairly modest level for a TD imho. If you want to attract smart people who would typically be a director or partner level in any profession, you'd want to be starting at €100k.

Two main reasons;
1) Irish nurses/teachers have to pay rent at Irish rent prices, not Sydney prices or Melbourne prices. Irish rent prices have climbed dramatically in the last ten years. Salaries for nurses and teachers have not kept up.
2) The main complaint for teachers is the inequality in the current structure for new entrants, rather than the overall levels.



I always think that suggestions like this should include specifics - what particular spending areas are 'useless wastes' in your opinion.


That'll be interesting for sure - so public servants will be getting Christmas bonuses, stock options and share purchase schemes, paid Christmas parties, paid health insurance, paid disability insurance, paid professional subscriptions and all the other benefits common in the private sector too?





Something like the Buckley report of 1998 mentioned above?



So you haven't bothered to look at the information currently provided? What's the point in asking for more information when you haven't bothered to look at what's there?


Now you're shifting the goalposts - it's not just publishing the information, you wan't someone to be paid to 'review' and 'audit' this? The press certainly crawl over the information with a fine toothcomb, but again, if you haven't bothered to study this information yourself, it's a bit rich to be looking for more information so you can ignore it.

Show me all this published information? Show me exactly where ? I want to know what each td is getting including expenses:.. u said it’s publicly available... where ?

And what press is crawling all over them... as i explained already ...to me it’s fairly clear rte and the indo have vested interests or some sort of arrangement .. they are highlighting or investigating nothing in regards to the govt, tds or ministers ....

Show me I’m wrong

PowerToWait

LillySV wrote: »

Show me all this published information? Show me exactly where ? I want to know what each td is getting including expenses:.. u said it’s publicly available... where ?

And what press is crawling all over them... as i explained already ...to me it’s fairly clear rte and the indo have vested interests or some sort of arrangement .. they are highlighting or investigating nothing in regards to the govt, tds or ministers ....

Show me I’m wrong

You know the way some people do the whole head wobble thing when they're annoyed?

da_miser

Danzy wrote: »

The challenge now is to avoid a global depression, by no means certain we will.

If spending cuts and belt tightening is the route taken then it is going to be a certainty.

Conventional is not going to cut it in this.

My business traded with a lot of successful companies in Northern Italy, they are now gone, wiped out.

The scale of the crisis facing Western Europe will be a one in a century event, if aggressive stimulus is applied this can be resolved in 12 months to just a bad downturn.


The damage done economically across Europe makes 2008 seem like a great time.

Lot of people living in bubbles going on about some student getting 350 a week or public sector wages but they refuse to look at the bigger picture.

How removed from reality can one be?

This is a golden opportunity to FIX the worlds economy, we all know the modern Fiat world of currency is broken and will eventually fail, so now the powers that be have the perfect excuse to preform drastic action to fix the money problems, quantitive easing and endless money printing have kept a dying system alive when it should have died, and have also added to the problem, now the plug can be pulled and a new system launched, going to be very interesting the next 6 months in the world of finance.