Public service pay cut?

Western_sean

Western_sean wrote: »

I think perhaps I should seek to gain more benefit from your insight in to public service culture and norms.

Are you aware of any flaws or waste in how public sector entities are run?

Are the any elements of the public sector you feel could be made more productive?

you preparing a similar thesis on demand for "the private sector" are you?

the idea, right from the off, that public services should be mainly measured on efficiency is so deeply flawed with even a moment's thought that one ought be embarrassed to take such a poseur position

if a service was so easily rated by mere efficiency or profit was either the driver or possible then it wouldnt be a public service is the fairly obvious conclusion.

you could make a child understand that, if the child hadn't already made its mind up on the subject and wasn't only trying to score lazy points.

secondly, public sector cannot declare bankruptcy and walk away from its services. that means a totally different structure and ideology to any private enterprise.

thirdly, public services are provided to users, not customers, and paid for out of govt funds, levied from the usual range of sources, not shareholders or customers.

you, as a taxpayer (congrats on that by the way, literally everyone here you're arguing against is also a taxpayer) arent a customer, and aren't a shareholder. civil servants have a manager and a structure under which they answer, to a tightness to legislation, audit, public interest and scrutiny that is unheard of in any private organisation of comparable size or scale or otherwise.

the public service is run along slow but exceeding fine lines of command and practice for several good reasons, not least of which is that our govt changes every five odd years and the new bosses take two years to learn what the civil service (or their new dept if god help us they are a minister) actually does and why, and another two years to come up with a plan about how they might achieve whatever bastardized objectives their garbled manifesto cobbled together- leaving one year of execution, usually hampered by it being another election year.

the average boards-level complainant has frankly no idea how much protection the civil service profession/expertise actually provides to the wellbeing and stability of this country in fending off the TDs we as an electorate are stupid enough to vote in.

before ye start, the idea that a new disestablishment party like SF could come in and sweep all this elaborate custom-and-practice away like either their voters thought or their politicians pretended to think is such a laughable non-runner legally, politically or economically that it bears no further mention.

the worst two things about the civil service is when it tries to ape private sector ideology (neoliberalism out of silicon valley is the latest but cannot even be convincingly applied to silicon valley, let alone a public sector anywhere) and when it tries to justify its existence as a public sector cravenly to those with little wit enough to understand why

every. functioning. country. in. the. world. has. a. public. sector. that. costs. money. and. is. meant. to. cost. money.

the rest is noise.

now its a saturday lads so ive given ye that for free.

if ye want to discuss pay cuts, im always interested in what a non-manager, non-customer, non-shareholder has to say as long as its not uninformed ranting, or unmannerly.

have at.

noodler

Sultan of Bling wrote: »

Public v private = divide and conquer.

This is exactly what the politicians want when they bring in the inevitable cuts just like they did in 2009.

Please don't fall for it again. All workers public and private sector need to unite against the long term unemployed wasters and the Margaret cash"s of this world that hard working private and public sector workers are expected to fund.

That's bull**** tbh.

I'm a PS worker.

It doesn't mean such a massive part of State expenditure can be wholly protected if the current fiscal woes continue.

Eric Cartman

Damian Faint Carp wrote: »

Not a hope, cutting nurses pay during this would create a political storm

The age old defense, wanting spending cuts in top heavy administration, quangos and stupid ‘panels’ everyone : ‘but the nurses and doctors’ , nobody wants to cut their pay, but their bosses boss could do without 3 assistants and doesnt deserve 90k a year

storker

I think all governments and the EU will need to find creative solutions to the approaching financial crisis. We've seen what post-crash austerity has brought: a boost for the far right, Brexit, the election of Trump and the in ireland the improvement in SFs electoral performance and a further decline in that of the traditional parties. If they try to apply the same old medicine again the more populist, nationalist and outright headbanger parties will be rubbing their hands with glee.

AndrewJRenko

Triangle wrote: »

Sweet Jesus, we've come full circle. Cheap money means borrow more......
That lead to the last financial crisis when we went from owing 40 bill to 240 billion in a short time.

Maybe it's my faulty memory, but I think there was something about our bankers and property developers conspiring to blow up our economy that lead to the last crisis.

addaword wrote: »

You can say the same about architects, vets, dentists, secretaries, cleaners, quantity surveyors. If and when they get a job in the public sector, they do not give it it up. Ever. Unless they are very ambitious.

Certainly not the case for architects, engineers, QSs, IT staff - it is very difficulty to keep them in public sector roles.

Snow Garden wrote: »

I was 5.5 years in the public sector in 2000s and never had a single formal performance appraisal with my manager. I checked with a former colleague and he says it's still the case. And I got my increments every year.

So we're talking 10-15 years ago. What organisation is your former colleague in now that is not doing formal performance appraisals?

Snow Garden

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So we're talking 10-15 years ago. What organisation is your former colleague in now that is not doing formal performance appraisals?

He is part of the HSE. Non front line.

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Maybe it's my faulty memory, but I think there was something about our bankers and property developers conspiring to blow up our economy that lead to the last crisis.

The last crises (2008) was caused by poor public sector management: politicians spending too much and buying public sector votes, poor regulation by the central bank and regulator etc. Other people just went by the rules the public sector (which includes the government) made. It was the private sector which lost mostly then too. Everyone else kept their jobs and their pensions.

landofthetree

FVP3 wrote: »

We definitely need to take more money out of the economy as this crisis unfolds.

Pay cuts for public sector workers isn't taking money out of the economy.

It's letting the rest of us keep money to spend elsewhere.

We are much better are spending our own money than the government.

jesus you won't see two worse posts on this site all week folks

two ppl that have looked at the states, and looked at france/scandinavia

and thought

"hmmm id rather we were much more like the former"

ffs, id take more money off ye if i could get power of attorney, and it would be a kindness tbh

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

The last crises (2008) was caused by poor public sector management: politicians spending too much and buying public sector votes, poor regulation by the central bank and regulator etc. Other people just went by the rules the public sector (which includes the government) made. It was the private sector which lost mostly then too. Everyone else kept their jobs and their pensions.

You seem a bit confused between political policy decisions and public sector management functions. Don't blame public sector staff for the decisions of the governments that we all elected.

Are you still playing the 'we lost our pensions' card for those who gambled in the markets?

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Don't blame public sector staff for the decisions of the governments that we all elected.

I will blame the regulators office and the central bank and the government for the 2008 crash. They were all paid by the public purse, with golden pensions, so were public sector if you ask me.

Snow Garden

Snow Garden wrote: »

He is part of the HSE. Non front line.

I can assure you I am monitored to micro managing levels. I'm surprised they still allow me dress myself.

When I worked in the private sector I was treated like an adult and allowed spend whole days doibg my job without being checked by my manager. Was great.

addaword

addaword wrote: »

I will blame the regulators office and the central bank and the government for the 2008 crash. They were all paid by the public purse, with golden pensions, so were public sector if you ask me.

Well there to go, no point in discussing it further with someone that will ignore the Wallace's of this situation because hey, the government didn't stop the private banks and builders from being reckless.

You have a serious case of envy and it appears to be eating you inside. Still waiting for you to supply evidence of your claims. Top 5 in the world will do as a starter

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

I will blame the regulators office and the central bank and the government for the 2008 crash. They were all paid by the public purse, with golden pensions, so were public sector if you ask me.

The regulators office didn't come up with the 'light touch regulation policy' that the regulators and the central bank operated under. That came from Charlie McCreevy and Micheal McDowell. Go have a chat with them about the impacts of their decisions.

Eric Cartman

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The regulators office didn't come up with the 'light touch regulation policy' that the regulators and the central bank operated under. That came from Charlie McCreevy and Micheal McDowell. Go have a chat with them about the impacts of their decisions.

Id love to know how charlie mcreevy and michael mcdowell influenced policy that caused every country in the western world to collapse economically.

This constant blaming of the irish government for a worldwide financial crash is getting tiresome.

SouthWesterly

SouthWesterly wrote: »

How much less? 18,000. Because that's what been advocated here. It wouldn't even be minimum wage.

You really don't know what you're talking about. Having worked most of my life in the private, sector, I'm underpaid for what I do.

People like purifo want others paid less rather than them paid more.

Regarding outsourcing. Paying people less is only one aspect. The owners of the private business will want their profit too. The resulting savings aren't massive if any.

Private sector agency staff used by the government can end up costing more than hiring staff.

Mad_maxx

Danzy wrote: »

Will that be allowed by Brussels though?

Replaying the decisions that turned the Wall street crash in to a depression 3 years later isn't going to be tolerable to them.

The yanks are already looking at another multi trillion stimulus.

What would you do add a word if you had to run your own business and the reality of that, of life, overwhelmed your Libertarian ideology.

There is no hiding then.

You are hoping they accelerate the economic decline.

we wont see an american style stimulus in europe because germany wont wear it

thats already patently clear

addaword

addaword wrote: »

That is the reason public sector wages will be cut. Ask any TD privately and they will tell you the same.

Made up post. You couldn't possibly know that.

Mad_maxx

public sector wages wont be cut unless the IMF end up returning which wont happen anytime soon

FF are much more left wing under michael martin than even under berties premiership , FG are too afraid of what the media think and LEO is a spineless PR obsessed careerist so nobody is going to step up like brian lenehan to make highly unpopular decisions , the country is much more left wing today than ten years ago , big government was always popular in ireland but its especially popular now

Mike3287

Mad_maxx wrote: »

we wont see an american style stimulus in europe because germany wont wear it

thats already patently clear

Germans will need the stimulus themselves

Car industry will be in the gutter after this

Mad_maxx

Mike3287 wrote: »

Germans will need the stimulus themselves

Car industry will be in the gutter after this

germans apart from being neurotic about inflation are content to tighten their belts , opposing stimulus is not just ideology on the part of the german institutions , its politically popular with the electorate , germans are not spend , spend , spend like we are

Mike3287

Mad_maxx wrote: »

germans apart from being neurotic about inflation are content to tighten their belts , opposing stimulus is not just ideology on the part of the german institutions , its politically popular with the electorate , germans are not spend , spend , spend like we are

They'll have to change ways, if the rest of Europe has no money who's going to buy cars off them?

VW alone are 200 billion in the red

WFH is not a good business model for it's biggest industry, it's going to be brutal

Larbre34

The radio discussion and this conversation, is entirely moot.

For decades, Governments have relied on the interconnectivity and analogy of public service grades for simplicity of organisation and negotiation. The public service Unions also cling on to this as the foundation of solidarity. A suggested pay cut for a civil service exec officer or assistant solicitor is a suggested pay cut for a nursing grade, a firefighter, a Garda, a therapist.

You don't need to be a genius to fill in the blanks as to why the conversation stops there.

Ask a TD privately? There is still no certainty of getting through this year without another General Election. Any member discovered even in the same building as a discussion of the above nature, is signing his political death warrant.

This State will borrow and trade its way out of this crisis. Unlike 2008, we are in a fundamentally strong position to bounce back, with strong domestic demand and high value exports of the types of goods and services that will retain their markets abroad - pharma, agri food, software and communications. From that lower paid and ancillary jobs will bleed back into the system and get unemployment on a strong downward trend again.

Mad_maxx

Mike3287 wrote: »

They'll have to change ways, if the rest of Europe has no money who's going to buy cars off them?

VW alone are 200 billion in the red

WFH is not a good business model for it's biggest industry, it's going to be brutal

china is the only game in town for the auto industry and its been this way for many years , its a **** business right now and was before covid

Mad_maxx

governments in ireland dont take on strong vested interests with strong lobby groups

public servants

pensioners

farmers


they look elsewhere to inflict pain and the media overwhelmingly backs them in doing so

Snow Garden

Snow Garden wrote: »

I was 5.5 years in the public sector in 2000s and never had a single formal performance appraisal with my manager. I checked with a former colleague and he says it's still the case. And I got my increments every year.

I’ve been in civil service for last 3 years and get them... the recently hired ones are getting quarterly ones

Kyleigh Damp Schoolteacher

Kyleigh Damp Schoolteacher wrote: »

I’ve been in civil service for last 3 years and get them... the recently hired ones are getting quarterly ones

of course you do davester

that poster is being very careful with their words but if pushed you will of course find they get their pmds or whatever like everyone else. theyre just choosing to frame it otherwise.

presuming they are of course actually a public sector worker

question that occurred to me for the economics masters that dont think my tax or pension contributions count somehow

is my actual salary for the purposes of the discussion therefore less the above?

jesus lads ye are arguing for a payrise for me

one more question

as a DB scheme, valuation of a public servants pension pot at retirement is not, of course, what ends up getting paid of the exchequer funds

i wonder would an analysis show that the average public servant does, for instance end up getting that publicised amount or not.

ive a feeling not, tbh.

now if your concern is whats paid by the exchequer, you should be interested in that

if you are more concerned that somebody has a secure pension, carry on with the begrudgery


probably not worth pointing out the intricacies of the pension reform of 95 and 2014 for this particular audience, im afraid middling detail is quite beyond them (this may be where they fall down at entrance exams, not for me to speculate)