Public service pay cut?

enricoh

smelly sock wrote: »

Plenty of nurses done ****all during this crisis too. This Florence Nightingale ****e is a joke. Sure some went above and beyond. Not all though.

My missus manages a team of Frontline workers. The usual suspects went out sick and left the decent ones snowed under.
They're back now with the union rep on speed dial dreaming up every hypothetical situation regarding social distancing etc.
They wouldn't last til lunchtime on a building site!

addaword

addaword wrote: »

You would be surprised. In some multinational pharmaceutical plants, the majority of employees are graduates. I suppose you will tell me most Gardai and soldiers are graduates now.

Most Gardai are indeed graduates before joining. All are when completing their training.

You haven't s ****ing clue what you are talking about. Not a clue. The public sector has consistently been shown to have a higher overall education level than the private. A simple look at the jobs in each sector should provide a hint as to why this is.

You continue to sprout rubbish and when challenged, produce no evidence and instead move onto another rubbish claim.

Now again, compare private sector FULL-TIME staff with college degree with full-time public sector staff with college degrees.

Prove your claim that Irish public sector are in the top 5 in the world.

Compare privste to public sector incomes in the 1990s

Compare Irish private sector incomes to other nations. Where do they finish?

Show that Ireland parts the highest on health services per capita.

Prove your claims!

SouthWesterly

addaword wrote: »

People on low incomes can be protected. Do not forget average public sector salary is close to 50k, according to the statistics. Google it.

Considering most of the CS is made up of Clerical officers I've no idea where that figure comes from when the highest salary after 16 years is 39k.

enricoh

enricoh wrote: »

My missus manages a team of Frontline workers. The usual suspects went out sick and left the decent ones snowed under.
They're back now with the union rep on speed dial dreaming up every hypothetical situation regarding social distancing etc.
They wouldn't last til lunchtime on a building site!

Builder would'nt last past breakfast in an emergency room

Architect is unlikely to last too long responding to calls in a Garda car.

Soldiers probable aren't the best people for an accountant office.

What's your point?

SouthWesterly

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Considering most of the CS is made up of Clerical officers I've no idea where that figure comes from when the highest salary after 16 years is 39k.

He's including Garda overtime and government ministers and other high paid staff but deliberately keeps the high earners in his own sector out of it.

addaword

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Considering most of the CS is made up of Clerical officers I've no idea where that figure comes from when the highest salary after 16 years is 39k.

That is the trouble with some people, comprehension. I said public sector. You say CS. Do you not know there is a difference?

Could someone show Niner leprauchan or yourself how to use google? Your own CSO has the answers.

enricoh

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Builder would'nt last past breakfast in an emergency room

Architect is unlikely to last too long responding to calls in a Garda car.

Soldiers probable aren't the best people for an accountant office.

What's your point?

Is that the best you can come up with?!
Okey dokey as bill would say!

bigdaddymac

addaword wrote: »

You would be surprised. In some multinational pharmaceutical plants, the majority of employees are graduates. I suppose you will tell me most Gardai and soldiers are graduates now.

Most Garda members have third level education when joining these days. The current training programme is awarded by UL in a bachelor f policing studies. Most if not all senior ranking Garda management have multiple degrees etc so yeah like other posters we are telling you most Gardai are graduates.

GooglePlus

Jesus I hope they don't cut the pay, I was just about getting by during the "good" times.

noodler

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Or else it means that the selection and management processes mean that 98% of staff are competent to do their job.
.

The public service is just that good, eh?

You've jumped the shark a bit theremin fairness. I've never heard anybody try and defend the near 100% acceptability ratings in the PMDS by claiming the public sector is simply better than the private.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If you want to take a hit in solidarity, you adjust the tax rates. That's solidarity - applying to everyone according to their means.

Funny definition.

So we get our employment protected despite the fact huge swaths of the service are being underutilized, and the private sector, which we depend on for tax revenue, on gets its heart ripped out.

No, solidarity, if the will or capacity to borrow our way out of this isn't there, means adjustments need to be made across the board. In such a scenario, a €20bn paybill would be difficult to protect.

noodler

gmisk wrote: »

Yep if you don't pass your PMDs you don't get your increment

Except virtually nobody fails!

noodler

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Most Gardai are indeed graduates before joining. All are when completing their training.

You haven't s ****ing clue what you are talking about. Not a clue. The public sector has consistently been shown to have a higher overall education level than the private. A simple look at the jobs in each sector should provide a hint as to why this is.

You continue to sprout rubbish and when challenged, produce no evidence and instead move onto another rubbish claim.

Now again, compare private sector FULL-TIME staff with college degree with full-time public sector staff with college degrees.

Prove your claim that Irish public sector are in the top 5 in the world.

Compare privste to public sector incomes in the 1990s

Compare Irish private sector incomes to other nations. Where do they finish?

Show that Ireland parts the highest on health services per capita.

Prove your claims!

Alot of whataboutery and nonsense.

On PS wages growth during the noughties, which you seem to have a bit of a blind spot with, you might read up on the benchmarking report or some of the background material from the public pay commission.

Rodin

enricoh wrote: »

My missus manages a team of Frontline workers. The usual suspects went out sick and left the decent ones snowed under.
They're back now with the union rep on speed dial dreaming up every hypothetical situation regarding social distancing etc.
They wouldn't last til lunchtime on a building site!

These slackers are a major problem in the public sector.
Incredibly workshy. Think their job exists to serve them.

ParkRunner

Given how many deductions are taken from the weekly public sector pay it would need to be a big cut to make any significant impact to the budget deficit, which itself would further damage the economy. Can’t see a new government starting out with it. Low interest borrowing is the way to go, especially if we are coming out the other side of this soon

SouthWesterly

addaword wrote: »

That is the trouble with some people, comprehension. I said public sector. You say CS. Do you not know there is a difference?

Could someone show Niner leprauchan or yourself how to use google? Your own CSO has the answers.

.
So you don't want to cut civil servants pay, only the guards and whoever else you think is overpaid.

You're talking crap.

addaword

SouthWesterly wrote: »

.
So you don't want to cut civil servants pay, only the guards and whoever else you think is overpaid.

Wrong. The Public service includes the civil service. Some people in the CS are on more than the public sector average of close to €50,000. I do not want to cut anybodies pay, but think it is inevitable and will be the right thing for the government given the position the country will find itself in by the time of the next budget.

Geuze

addaword wrote: »

Well, in that period, 2001 to 2006, when public sector wages went up 59%, the average industrial wage only went up 18%.

Source:finfacts.ie

Instead of depending on finfacts.ie, which may be biased, why don't we go to the raw data?

Let's look up table PSA01 in the CSO's Statbank.

https://statbank.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?maintable=PSA01&PLanguage=0

PSA01: Public Sector Average Weekly Earnings (1988 to 2008) by Type of Public Sector Employment and Year

2001 = 671.78

2006 = 882.02

That is an increase of 31%, not 59%

mehico

addaword wrote: »

It was 8% in 2005 alone. Between 2001 and 2006 it was 59%.
The education sector saw the biggest increase with pay costs rising by 65%. Health sector pay surged by 63% in the period, civil service salaries rose 48% and in the security sector they rose by 34.8%.

I'm not sure what to tell you but the pay increases for the organisation I worked in at this time was approximately 4%.

Are you talking about pay rises or pay costs though?

addaword

Geuze wrote: »

Instead of depending on finfacts.ie, which may be biased, why don't we go to the raw data?

Let's look up table PSA01 in the CSO's Statbank.

https://statbank.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?maintable=PSA01&PLanguage=0

PSA01: Public Sector Average Weekly Earnings (1988 to 2008) by Type of Public Sector Employment and Year

2001 = 671.78

2006 = 882.02

That is an increase of 31%, not 59%

You are wrong yet again. When you go in to the table to get those figures above, you are looking at public sector excluding health. Not total public sector. Do try harder.

Martin32

I think something that rarely gets mentioned is the real value of job security, I work in the private sector, paid a significant premium compared If i was doing the same professional job in the public sector. Although when I look around me in large Mnc , there is nobody over 55, only very senior management, the rest made redundant over time. These people have 15 year work left and are unemployable in private sector because of age

Geuze

addaword wrote: »

Well, in that period, 2001 to 2006, when public sector wages went up 59%, the average industrial wage only went up 18%.

Source:finfacts.ie

Let us also check the AIW data.

Here we go: https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-hes/hes2015/aiw/

2001 = 470.97
2006 = 601.21

The increase is 27.6%.

Geuze

addaword wrote: »

You are wrong yet again. When you go in to the table to get those figures above, you are looking at public sector excluding health. Not total public sector. Do try harder.

That's the best I can see.

I suspect a figure including Health isn't available as those years precede the HSE.

addaword

Here we go from your link: https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-hes/hes2015/aiw/

Public sector increase 2001-2006 59%

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

seefin wrote: »

Nope, am genuine. Admittedly I'm possibly the only public sector worker with such a view. In 2008 recession , I was a lone voice agreeing with pay cuts.

Just for context, what is your job within the Public Sector?

Geuze

addaword wrote: »

The education sector saw the biggest increase with pay costs rising by 65%. Health sector pay surged by 63% in the period, civil service salaries rose 48% and in the security sector they rose by 34.8%.

Please note that rising labour costs is not the exact same as rising individual salaries.

Between 2001 and 2006, average weekly pay in the Civil Service rose by 32.4%.

2001 = 633.10
2006 = 838.35

https://statbank.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?MainTable=PSA01&TabStrip=Select&PLanguage=0&FF=1

The 48% referred to above may be the total wage bill, which is obviously driven by numbers, pay rates, composition, etc.

addaword

Geuze wrote: »

The 48% referred to above may be the total wage bill, which is obviously driven by numbers, pay rates, composition, etc.

No: the link clearly says "Public Sector Average Weekly Earnings"

Geuze

addaword wrote: »

People on low incomes can be protected. Do not forget average public sector salary is close to 50k, according to the statistics. Google it.

2018 data on annual earnings by sector

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2018/


B-E Industry = 46,399
J Communication and Information = 61,269
O Public Admin and Defence = 49,724

See other sectors in table 5.

noodler

noodler wrote: »

Alot of whataboutery and nonsense.

On PS wages growth during the noughties, which you seem to have a bit of a blind spot with, you might read up on the benchmarking report or some of the background material from the public pay commission.

I fully accept there were raises in those days. I was there. I also know I was still earning less than my friends in their offices who also saw their salaries increase. One of which was paid handsomely to help large companies avoid paying tax in Ireland so that the owners and senior executives could go from millionaires to billionaires. He himself now 'lives' in Switzerland. Best not include them in any stats though, it might not suit an agenda. Probable best if we deny that perks, benefit in kind and bonuses to avoid paying income tax didnt exist either eh?

Asking someone to provide evidence of their own claims is nonsense now? Right so. Back to making stuff up without providing evidence. Seems about right for you two.

The private sector in Ireland work the fewest hours globally but are the highest paid at graduate level.

In Ireland a person working in McDonald's part-time after dropping out of school earns more than a doctor in Cuba. That proves the Irish private sector are vastly overpaid.

You see I can do blatant mismatches and limited numbers too.

Geuze

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addaword wrote: »

Here we go from your link: https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-hes/hes2015/aiw/

Public sector increase 2001-2006 59%

I am looking at this link, which you refer to:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-hes/hes2015/aiw/

I can't see any reference to your 59%.

Can you please pinpoint it?

Which section is it in?

• Infographic
• Introduction
• The Average Industrial Wage and the Irish Economy
• Sectoral Earnings
• Occupational Earnings
• Earnings by Gender
• Earnings by Age
• Purchasing Power of Earnings
• Background Notes
• Contact Details

Martin32

Martin32 wrote: »

I think something that rarely gets mentioned is the real value of job security, I work in the private sector, paid a significant premium compared If i was doing the same professional job in the public sector. Although when I look around me in large Mnc , there is nobody over 55, only very senior management, the rest made redundant over time. These people have 15 year work left and are unemployable in private sector because of age

I don't think so. I think most public sector staff acknowledge the security and accept that it comes at a price on terms of pay.

It's also unlikely you will see a public sector person come into this thread and seek to have your conditions and pay decreased to match theirs. We will aspire to match you which I think is only natural. Who doesn't want a raise?

The issue here is your have certain people that will use limited data and just plain made up nonsense to claim that the public sector also earns more than an equal level private sector position. Something you can be big enough and honest enough to say isn't true.

So well done you. You fairly nailed it. Public sector has job security, private has more financial reward. I always thought this was pretty common knowledge