Public service pay cut?

smelly sock

smelly sock wrote: »

Not applicable to everyone or reflective of society either but it did happen.

When I was a Clerical Officer earning 350 per week a few of my builders mates told me they would get out of bed for less then 300 a day. They were the first ones to emigrate to OZ when the sh*t hit the fan. I had little sympathy. They were the first one to whinge about my job security also and pension etc. From this thread we can see that the attitude if still in existence.

Why lads went back to construction in their droves after the crash is beyond me. Some people never learn I suppose and want other like low paid PS workers to bail them out when things get tough.

Except the like of ada will say that he's on great money because he's oh so intelligent and highly educated. Much much more than us servants. Makes you wonder why he's so concerned about us lowly ants pay

addaword

addaword wrote: »

No: the link clearly says "Public Sector Average Weekly Earnings"

"ICTU has compiled a list of 26 companies with an average CEO pay of €2.3 million."
(https://www.thejournal.ie/ceo-pay-ireland-2-4418117-Dec2018/)

You are here complaining about us and the private sector is making millionaires!!!!

facehugger99

smelly sock wrote: »

Not applicable to everyone or reflective of society either but it did happen.

When I was a Clerical Officer earning 350 per week a few of my builders mates told me they wouldn't get out of bed for less then 300 a day. They were the first ones to emigrate to OZ when the sh*t hit the fan. I had little sympathy. They were the first one to whinge about my job security also and pension etc. From this thread we can see that the attitude is still in existence.

Why lads went back to construction in their droves after the crash is beyond me. Some people never learn I suppose and want other like low paid PS workers to bail them out when things get tough.

It's great the public-sector lads have so many anecdotes about the sneers from their private sector buddies.

Weird bunch of friends that ye cultivate.

facehugger99

facehugger99 wrote: »

It's great the public-sector lads have so many anecdotes about the sneers from their private sector buddies.

Weird bunch of friends that ye cultivate.

Not everyone is the loner in the corner, some had friends in school

I find it amazing that those bashing always seen to know a teacher or Garda that's making millions, sitting at home and renting 20 houses

DM1983

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You can buy service for starters out just accept a smaller pension so your argument is flawed.

If you applied now for an Garda siochana you could realistically be working by 40. You would need to buy 10 years service or you could accept a lower pension after 20 years service.

However that would be topped up by your private pension which you have presumable being paying into for a few years now anyway.

Or you can continue your private pension and at 68 get your private pension and the state pension which adds 10k to your pension pot per year.

So you have options at 36 still. I was just under 30 joining so will just manage to get in the full 30 but there's plenty joining now that need to buy service. It's manageable if you tackle it at the start.

Other than that, you have to acknowledge that your lack of foresight and long term planning is not the problem of those that did. You chose the higher salary in the pocket now and failed to consider the value of the pension at the end.

That decision is 100% on you. No one else. So please explain, why is it you seem to erode my pension but I bet wouldn't be happy to see your public sector colleague get a raise to match your income?

Good post. Thanks for this. Never heard of buying service. Can you share if there are formulas in place to calculate the cost? I would still consider entering public sector in the future. Is it very rare for someone to join late (45+) at higher levels in civil service type roles?

Lux23

I don't think I would mind a pay cut if the prices of housing went down, during the recession I was doing reasonably well on 30k a year, but as the recovery started and rents flew up it was much harder to make ends meet. I earn much better money now, but it all relative to my outgoings - rents etc. would have to come down.

blanch152

DM1983 wrote: »

Good post. Thanks for this. Never heard of buying service. Can you share if there are formulas in place to calculate the cost? I would still consider entering public sector in the future. Is it very rare for someone to join late (45+) at higher levels in civil service type roles?

Over the last 10 years, there have been many who joined as most of the senior posts are open to external transparent competition (unlike in large private sector organisations).

The biggest obstacle has been the low rate of pay for the high level of responsibility at senior level.

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/DPER-Circular-15-of-2019-Purchase-and-Transfer-of-Retirement-Benefits-under-the-Single-Public-Service-Pension-Scheme.pdf

Circular 15 of 2019 covers the cost of purchasing pension.

Under the Single Pension Scheme, final salary benefits have been reduced, and you now receive the benefit of your average salary over your career.

DM1983

DM1983 wrote: »

Good post. Thanks for this. Never heard of buying service. Can you share if there are formulas in place to calculate the cost? I would still consider entering public sector in the future. Is it very rare for someone to join late (45+) at higher levels in civil service type roles?

I can't honestly say how common it is but if you do have a meander at publicjobs.ie its mostly qualified and experienced people they are looking for at the moment. That being said, I have no idea how the pensions are calculated for them.

Edit: I see a more knowledgeable man had answers

SouthWesterly

addaword wrote: »

I never said they were not. I explained that civil servants were and are part of the public sector, whose average salary is just under 50k according to the CSO.

Ok, so we've clarified that clerical officers don't get 50k a year. Tell us who does?

SouthWesterly

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Ok, so we've clarified that clerical officers don't get 50k a year. Tell us who does?

The people that would be earning millions in the private sector?

SouthWesterly

HartsHat wrote: »

There's only 15 SGs and tens of thousands of clerical officers. Why are you focusing on the SGs?

No CO gets 50k

SouthWesterly

DM1983 wrote: »

Good post. Thanks for this. Never heard of buying service. Can you share if there are formulas in place to calculate the cost? I would still consider entering public sector in the future. Is it very rare for someone to join late (45+) at higher levels in civil service type roles?

I joined after 45. I'll only have 20 years. .
There is a moddler on the HR portal for serving staff.

I'm seeing a lot of older people join these days. They've lost jobs

Lux23

Lux23 wrote: »

I don't think I would mind a pay cut if the prices of housing went down, during the recession I was doing reasonably well on 30k a year, but as the recovery started and rents flew up it was much harder to make ends meet. I earn much better money now, but it all relative to my outgoings - rents etc. would have to come down.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing as they say.

I know 2 lads in my job, both saving for houses when the crash happened. They held on until about 2009/2010 and then bought. Paid less than half what I did.

Then there's anyone who happened to sell just before the crash but hadn't finalised their next place so the cash was in the bank. Even up in nicer houses with smaller mortgages than they started with.

Ah well.

DM1983

blanch152 wrote: »

Over the last 10 years, there have been many who joined as most of the senior posts are open to external transparent competition (unlike in large private sector organisations).

The biggest obstacle has been the low rate of pay for the high level of responsibility at senior level.

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/DPER-Circular-15-of-2019-Purchase-and-Transfer-of-Retirement-Benefits-under-the-Single-Public-Service-Pension-Scheme.pdf

Circular 15 of 2019 covers the cost of purchasing pension.

Under the Single Pension Scheme, final salary benefits have been reduced, and you now receive the benefit of your average salary over your career.

Thanks for this. Good information. Its complex but if I'm reading it correctly, the tables towards the end show the costs. €1 per year pension in retirement costs ~€24. This is not far off the real actuarial cost of providing a pension. I think that this shows however how overvalued PS pensions are no? A €30K PS pension would cost ~€720K under that system but over 40 years how much has that employee plus employer "contributed"? The employee has contributed a lot less than €18K average per year I reckon, so the employer, ie. the state, is making up the balance.

addaword

DM1983 wrote: »

10k pension contribution per year (assume 100k salary) won't get you anywhere near the average PS pension.

...PS pensions are just ridiculous.

Nail on the head.

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

Nail on the head.

Unfortunately, it misses the nail and hits his own thumb instead, given the facts on pension reform:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113476951&postcount=668

addaword

Promised reform does not go far enough when you have the likes of Gardai, who joined with a pass leaving cert 30 years ago, now retiring with a pension pot worth 1.8 million, according to the Irish Times.

Paulzx

addaword wrote: »

Promised reform does not go far enough when you have the likes of Gardai, who joined with a pass leaving cert 30 years ago, now retiring with a pension pot worth 1.8 million, according to the Irish Times.

If they had an honours leaving cert would it make you happier?

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

Promised reform does not go far enough when you have the likes of Gardai, who joined with a pass leaving cert 30 years ago, now retiring with a pension pot worth 1.8 million, according to the Irish Times.

There is the little matter of existing contractual commitments and constitutional rights to property for the Garda retiring on half of his working salary (excluding any allowances that applied while he was working).

I'd actually think a rise in income tax across the board in general is fairer than just cutting public sector pay. Like add on 2% to base tax and higher rate. Distributed more evenly across society. I don't see why people who earn less than private sector on average should be penalised further.

addaword

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd actually think a rise in income tax across the board in general is fairer than just cutting public sector pay. Like add on 2% to base tax and higher rate. Distributed more evenly across society. I don't see why people who earn less than private sector on average should be penalised further.

Given private sector wages are considerably less than public sector wages, according to the CSO, it would be fairer to reduce public sector wages and pensions, especially considering the taxpayer cannot afford them anymore.

AdrianII

No way they touch PS pay.
Nurses, doctors etc all under the same umbrella as admin staff. If they cut it there would be all out war.

Hey frontline staff, thanks for endangering your life for us during covid, you were fantastic, but, actually we are going to have to cut your pay.

No way is that happening.

Tax rise for everyone is more likely.

Geuze

addaword wrote: »

Given private sector wages are considerably less than public sector wages, according to the CSO,

But we must adjust for education/age/skills, see below:

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/publicprivatesectorpaydifferential/


As can be seen from the work below, men in the PS earn less than in the private sector. Up to 10% less than the private sector.



https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

Key Findings (2015-2018)

The trend shows that the pay differential between the public and private sector is steadily declining in the period 2015 to 2018.

When comparing the public and private sector over the period 2015-2018, the pay differential for male employees in the public sector ranged from a premium of 1.0% to a discount of -10.8% depending on the specification used.

The corresponding differential for females showed that female workers in the public sector had a differential ranging from 3.3% to 15.8% depending on the model applied when compared to their counterparts in the private sector.


Please see Figure 4.1 and this analysis:


Figure 4.1 shows the premia at various points throughout the earnings distribution (after the deduction of the pension levy) for 2015 to 2018. It is clear that the public sector differential was highest for those at the lower end of the earnings distribution. The pay gap decreased consistently as earnings increased for all four years.

In 2015 the pay differential at the 50th percentile was 0.6% and the percentile at which the pay differential became a discount was the 54th percentile. In 2018 the pay differential at the 50th percentile was -1.5% and the percentile at which the pay differential became a discount was the 45th percentile.

So the median worker in the PS is paid less then the private sector.

Geuze

Instead of cutting pay, tackle the unions resistance to change, like this:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0518/1139188-hse-union-row/

HamSarris

It’s interesting on boards that if a private sector professional mentions they have an average salary (e.g., engineer on 50k), the typical response is that they are being shafted by their boss and everyone I know is making double, even the new guy straight out of college etc.

If an experienced public sector worker with degrees, masters etc. say they make 50K, suddenly this becomes a job a private sector worker could only dream about.

This isn't about fiscal responsibility, it's about social status and comparison. The business manager on 80K would feel slightly better about himself if the teacher next door earned 40k instead of 50K.

addaword

addaword wrote: »

Given private sector wages are considerably less than public sector wages, according to the CSO, it would be fairer to reduce public sector wages and pensions, especially considering the taxpayer cannot afford them anymore.

addaword wrote: »

Promised reform does not go far enough when you have the likes of Gardai, who joined with a pass leaving cert 30 years ago, now retiring with a pension pot worth 1.8 million, according to the Irish Times.

**** me.

I'm out. There's no changing a mind that's closed to reality and is this bitter.

addaword

addaword wrote: »

Given private sector wages are considerably less than public sector wages, according to the CSO, it would be fairer to reduce public sector wages and pensions, especially considering the taxpayer cannot afford them anymore.

I could earn far more in community or industry than I earn in hospital. So, I'd have to re-evaluate if the the government decided to shaft us after the **** we have done over the last couple of months.

I don't understand the bitterness from people in the private sector.

enricoh

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

**** me.

I'm out. There's no changing a mind that's closed to reality and is this bitter.

Aye its addaword that is closed to reality! Are you saying private sector wages aren't considerably less than public- that's some version of reality!

The report found that average public-sector wages in Ireland amounted to €47,400 compared with €33,900 in the private sector. .
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/weekly-public-private-sector-pay-difference-widens-to-247-1.3097576%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwiX5P2os77pAhVfShUIHaLwDigQFjACegQIDBAN&usg=AOvVaw3oVOrybyOZ4n9gqh3R3Uks&ampcf=1

Geuze

enricoh wrote: »

The report found that average public-sector wages in Ireland amounted to €47,400 compared with €33,900 in the private sector. .
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/weekly-public-private-sector-pay-difference-widens-to-247-1.3097576%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwiX5P2os77pAhVfShUIHaLwDigQFjACegQIDBAN&usg=AOvVaw3oVOrybyOZ4n9gqh3R3Uks&ampcf=1

Of course crude PS wages are higher.

There are thousands of doctors in the PS, teachers, etc, all who tend to be older / more educated than the private sector.

There are very few (none?) PS on the min wage.

But 5% of the workforce approx are on the min wage.

So we must adjust for education/age/skills, when we compare wages.

When we do this, we see that the PS pay premium has fallen, see post above.

enricoh

enricoh wrote: »

Aye its addaword that is closed to reality! Are you saying private sector wages aren't considerably less than public- that's some version of reality!

The report found that average public-sector wages in Ireland amounted to €47,400 compared with €33,900 in the private sector. .
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/weekly-public-private-sector-pay-difference-widens-to-247-1.3097576%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwiX5P2os77pAhVfShUIHaLwDigQFjACegQIDBAN&usg=AOvVaw3oVOrybyOZ4n9gqh3R3Uks&ampcf=1

What's the percentage of people in the public sector who have third level education Vs those in the public sector? There's a premium attached there.