Public service pay cut?

runawaybishop

addaword wrote: »

Given private sector wages are considerably less than public sector wages, according to the CSO, it would be fairer to reduce public sector wages and pensions, especially considering the taxpayer cannot afford them anymore.

Stop being such a **** to maths! Of course public service wages are higher on average. They don't employ people at 9 euro an hour for 4 hours a week.

I'm in the DSP, I would be surprised if the people here working their balls off processing pup claims didn't revolt if a pay cut was introduced.

I work in the IT section, I could earn more if I went back to private but I chose the job security. PS wages in IT are a fair bit below private sector.

Also unlikely to have an employment moratorium. There is an absolutely massive wave of retirements coming, 20% or so in the next ten years.

smelly sock

I think IBEC have a few posters on here. As do INM and Sheehan.

When things get tough " public sector have it tooeasy. Cut wages and pensions etc"

When things are good " Haha look at those losers in the Public Service earning peanuts"

I as a civil servant would have no issue in crippling the country with strikes and withdrawing critical services if the deal is not honoured. We dont want a rise, we want restoration.

noodler

Geuze wrote: »

Of course crude PS wages are higher.

There are thousands of doctors in the PS, teachers, etc, all who tend to be older / more educated than the private sector.

There are very few (none?) PS on the min wage.

But 5% of the workforce approx are on the min wage.

So we must adjust for education/age/skills, when we compare wages.

When we do this, we see that the PS pay premium has fallen, see post above.

As you acknowledge, the paper stops in 2018.

There were two pay increases in 2018, another in 2019 and another planned this year as well as significant reductions in PRD payable for most and certain cohorts in particular.

That's ignoring increments, sector specific deals for nurses, defence forces and the new entrants deal.

The paper you quote implies those earning less than 35k in the PS are overpaid relative to he private sector. Of course that's too simplistic, as is the median. It shouldn't be selectively quoted to make a point

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

smelly sock wrote: »

Not applicable to everyone or reflective of society either but it did happen.

When I was a Clerical Officer earning 350 per week a few of my builders mates told me they wouldn't get out of bed for less then 300 a day. They were the first ones to emigrate to OZ when the sh*t hit the fan. I had little sympathy. They were the first one to whinge about my job security also and pension etc. From this thread we can see that the attitude is still in existence.

Why lads went back to construction in their droves after the crash is beyond me. Some people never learn I suppose and want other like low paid PS workers to bail them out when things get tough.

Reading this post was like I had written it myself. I started as a CO on around 360 a week in 2007 when half of my friends were pulling over a grand a week working on building sites. Like that, fast forward 2 or 3 years and they're telling me how good I have it and what a great job the Civil Service is.

There's never a word about Public Sector pay when things are going well in the country, but the minute things get tight, it's the Fat Cat Civil Servants on their gravy train that are bringing about another economic implosion. Get a grip.

The best of jobs in the worst of times.
The worst of jobs in the best of times.

dresden8

https://www.breakingnews.ie/business/i-dont-think-its-crowing-unite-trade-union-rejects-isme-criticism-of-public-sector-pay-rise-calls-1000288.html

I think it's time for IBEC and ISME to publish their full member lists.

In the interests of openness and transparency.

Just so we know what they think of their customers..

dresden8

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the percentage of people in the public sector who have third level education Vs those in the public sector? There's a premium attached there.

It'simpler than that. People of a similar educational level are treated differently. E.g. solicitors in the private sector are mostly wholly or mainly self-employed and therefore not counted in the statistics. Whereas all solicitors employed in the public sector are counted as employees. The higher earners are not compared.

AndrewJRenko

noodler wrote: »

As you acknowledge, the paper stops in 2018.

There were two pay increases in 2018, another in 2019 and another planned this year as well as significant reductions in PRD payable for most and certain cohorts in particular.

There were no increases in 2018 or 2019, and none planned for 2020. You're mixing up increases with restoration of previous cuts.

The PRD remains in place as a substantial cut for most.

AndrewJRenko

enricoh wrote: »

Aye its addaword that is closed to reality! Are you saying private sector wages aren't considerably less than public- that's some version of reality!

The report found that average public-sector wages in Ireland amounted to €47,400 compared with €33,900 in the private sector. .
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/weekly-public-private-sector-pay-difference-widens-to-247-1.3097576%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwiX5P2os77pAhVfShUIHaLwDigQFjACegQIDBAN&usg=AOvVaw3oVOrybyOZ4n9gqh3R3Uks&ampcf=1

Why would comparing averages be relevant? Apples and oranges there.

AndrewJRenko

Geuze wrote: »

But we must adjust for education/age/skills, see below:

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/publicprivatesectorpaydifferential/


As can be seen from the work below, men in the PS earn less than in the private sector. Up to 10% less than the private sector.



https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

Great point. Given Adda's enthusiasm for equal pay, I'm sure he'll be back here calling for an increase for men in the public sector as soon as he wakes up.

AndrewJRenko

Geuze wrote: »

Instead of cutting pay, tackle the unions resistance to change, like this:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0518/1139188-hse-union-row/

Union opposition to management exploiting a crisis to further their outsourcing agenda contrary to current agreements by the looks of it.

almostover

smelly sock wrote: »

I think IBEC have a few posters on here. As do INM and Sheehan.

When things get tough " public sector have it tooeasy. Cut wages and pensions etc"

When things are good " Haha look at those losers in the Public Service earning peanuts"

I as a civil servant would have no issue in crippling the country with strikes and withdrawing critical services if the deal is not honoured. We dont want a rise, we want restoration.

How, pray tell, is the country going to afford a public service pay restoration package when it is predicted that we will have a 30bn budget deficit as a country as a result of the pandemic?

Jim Root

almostover wrote: »

How, pray tell, is the country going to afford a public service pay restoration package when it is predicted that we will have a 30bn budget deficit as a country as a result of the pandemic?

Haven’t you been reading the thread, they don’t care how it’s funded. They want their money.

enricoh

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why would comparing averages be relevant? Apples and oranges there.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/weekly-public-private-sector-pay-difference-widens-to-247-1.3097576%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwiO_OrGsL_pAhW3VhUIHZXVAhoQFjABegQIDBAH&usg=AOvVaw3oVOrybyOZ4n9gqh3R3Uks&ampcf=1
A report by Dublin-based stockbroker Davy earlier this year found that public-sector workers here earn 40 per cent more on average than their counterparts in the private sector, even before any allowance for their pension entitlements and job security is made.May 26, 2017

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-6347953/amp/Public-sector-workers-bring-home-average-private-sector-counterparts.html&ved=2ahUKEwiMtoSRsb_pAhUBqXEKHf_fASIQFjALegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3wRkKn9Mf21Y8zyi2eWIJK&ampcf=1&cshid=1589872689322

Public sector in Ireland get 40% more than private on average not taking into account better pension and job security
In UK it's 13%
Maybe Ireland's public sector are 27% better, definitely not that Bertie bought a few elections with the benchmarking atm!

HerrKuehn

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the percentage of people in the public sector who have third level education Vs those in the public sector? There's a premium attached there.

I think a lot of that is due to people having degrees that are not very marketable in the private sector, something like Geography. How many in the public sector with a degree actually need it to do their jobs? Should we pay someone in the civil service more because they have a degree in something that is not required?

blanch152

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I think a lot of that is due to people having degrees that are not very marketable in the private sector, something like Geography. How many in the public sector with a degree actually need it to do their jobs? Should we pay someone in the civil service more because they have a degree in something that is not required?

Being a teacher requires a degree, 95% of them work in the public sector.
Being a nurse requires a degree, 90% of them work in the public sector.

It is the same with doctors, psychologists, radiographers, lecturers, professors etc.

blanch152

noodler wrote: »

As you acknowledge, the paper stops in 2018.

There were two pay increases in 2018, another in 2019 and another planned this year as well as significant reductions in PRD payable for most and certain cohorts in particular.

That's ignoring increments, sector specific deals for nurses, defence forces and the new entrants deal.

The paper you quote implies those earning less than 35k in the PS are overpaid relative to he private sector. Of course that's too simplistic, as is the median. It shouldn't be selectively quoted to make a point

Pay increases in the private sector ran ahead of those in the public sector during 2018 and 2019.

addaword

enricoh wrote: »

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/weekly-public-private-sector-pay-difference-widens-to-247-1.3097576%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwiO_OrGsL_pAhW3VhUIHZXVAhoQFjABegQIDBAH&usg=AOvVaw3oVOrybyOZ4n9gqh3R3Uks&ampcf=1
A report by Dublin-based stockbroker Davy earlier this year found that public-sector workers here earn 40 per cent more on average than their counterparts in the private sector, even before any allowance for their pension entitlements and job security is made.May 26, 2017

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-6347953/amp/Public-sector-workers-bring-home-average-private-sector-counterparts.html&ved=2ahUKEwiMtoSRsb_pAhUBqXEKHf_fASIQFjALegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3wRkKn9Mf21Y8zyi2eWIJK&ampcf=1&cshid=1589872689322

Public sector in Ireland get 40% more than private on average not taking into account better pension and job security
In UK it's 13%
Maybe Ireland's public sector are 27% better, definitely not that Bertie bought a few elections with the benchmarking atm!

+1. Well said.

Go to any class reunion of graduates, be they in geography, the arts, veterinary, architecture, dentistry or whatever and ask them where the best paid, easiest, most secure and best pensioned jobs are and they will always say public sector.

DM1983

Geuze wrote: »

But we must adjust for education/age/skills, see below:

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/earnings/publicprivatesectorpaydifferential/


As can be seen from the work below, men in the PS earn less than in the private sector. Up to 10% less than the private sector.



https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

Key Findings (2015-2018)

The trend shows that the pay differential between the public and private sector is steadily declining in the period 2015 to 2018.

When comparing the public and private sector over the period 2015-2018, the pay differential for male employees in the public sector ranged from a premium of 1.0% to a discount of -10.8% depending on the specification used.

The corresponding differential for females showed that female workers in the public sector had a differential ranging from 3.3% to 15.8% depending on the model applied when compared to their counterparts in the private sector.


Please see Figure 4.1 and this analysis:


Figure 4.1 shows the premia at various points throughout the earnings distribution (after the deduction of the pension levy) for 2015 to 2018. It is clear that the public sector differential was highest for those at the lower end of the earnings distribution. The pay gap decreased consistently as earnings increased for all four years.

In 2015 the pay differential at the 50th percentile was 0.6% and the percentile at which the pay differential became a discount was the 54th percentile. In 2018 the pay differential at the 50th percentile was -1.5% and the percentile at which the pay differential became a discount was the 45th percentile.

So the median worker in the PS is paid less then the private sector.

Not the full picture though. Need to look at total remuneration package. Massively higher pension "contribution" paid by the state - who can put a figure on this? 25% of total salary? As long as PS pensions remain in place at the current level, PS salaries should be far lower than private sector. Of course they should! Higher levels of annual leave are also a fact but don't impact the final picture significantly.

addaword

addaword wrote: »

+1. Well said.

Go to any class reunion of graduates, be they in geography, the arts, veterinary, architecture, dentistry or whatever and ask them where the best paid, easiest, most secure and best pensioned jobs are and they will always say public sector.

Can only speak of pharmacy but at my stage of career equivalent in the community, they'd be earning 30-50% more.

runawaybishop

addaword wrote: »

+1. Well said.

Go to any class reunion of graduates, be they in geography, the arts, veterinary, architecture, dentistry or whatever and ask them where the best paid, easiest, most secure and best pensioned jobs are and they will always say public sector.

Not in IT they wouldnt.

addaword

There is no exodus of pharmacists or IT people from from the public to the private sector, except by those wanting more challenging work.They know how to apply for private sector jobs if they are that good.

addaword

DM1983 wrote: »

Not the full picture though. Need to look at total remuneration package. Massively higher pension "contribution" paid by the state - who can put a figure on this? 25% of total salary? As long as PS pensions remain in place at the current level, PS salaries should be far lower than private sector. Of course they should! Higher levels of annual leave are also a fact but don't impact the final picture significantly.

The pension has been shown to be worth more that 25% of salary in the case of Gardai, when the figures are examined.

addaword

addaword wrote: »

There is no exodus of pharmacists or IT people from from the public to the private sector, except by those wanting more challenging work.They know how to apply for private sector jobs if they are that good.

And you know this? How exactly? What exactly is the difference between hospital and community pharmacist seeming as you know one is more challenging than the other? Realistically, they both are very difficult jobs but pay is good in either section and job is essentially recession proof. A hint of jealousy on your part?

addaword

addaword wrote: »

There is no exodus of pharmacists or IT people from from the public to the private sector, except by those wanting more challenging work.They know how to apply for private sector jobs if they are that good.

Hello Mr kettle. How's the Garda recruitment process coming along? You surely applied many times now

AndrewJRenko

enricoh wrote: »

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/weekly-public-private-sector-pay-difference-widens-to-247-1.3097576%3Fmode%3Damp&ved=2ahUKEwiO_OrGsL_pAhW3VhUIHZXVAhoQFjABegQIDBAH&usg=AOvVaw3oVOrybyOZ4n9gqh3R3Uks&ampcf=1
A report by Dublin-based stockbroker Davy earlier this year found that public-sector workers here earn 40 per cent more on average than their counterparts in the private sector, even before any allowance for their pension entitlements and job security is made.May 26, 2017

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-6347953/amp/Public-sector-workers-bring-home-average-private-sector-counterparts.html&ved=2ahUKEwiMtoSRsb_pAhUBqXEKHf_fASIQFjALegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3wRkKn9Mf21Y8zyi2eWIJK&ampcf=1&cshid=1589872689322

Public sector in Ireland get 40% more than private on average not taking into account better pension and job security
In UK it's 13%
Maybe Ireland's public sector are 27% better, definitely not that Bertie bought a few elections with the benchmarking atm!

Why did you bother quoting my question about why you're comparing averages at all when you completely ignored it? Would you like to have another go at explaining why compare averages at all?

Average house prices in Dublin are higher than average house prices in Limerick. Does this mean all the Dublin prices are wrong?

Comparing averages is meaningless. Posting articles from UK newspapers about UK salaries is particularly meaningless.

blanch152

addaword wrote: »

There is no exodus of pharmacists or IT people from from the public to the private sector, except by those wanting more challenging work.They know how to apply for private sector jobs if they are that good.

Not true.

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

The pension has been shown to be worth more that 25% of salary in the case of Gardai, when the figures are examined.

Are these more of those figures that you refuse to source?

And even if the pension is worth 25%, so what? So what if that is the way that remuneration was structured.

addaword wrote: »

Go to any class reunion of graduates, be they in geography, the arts, veterinary, architecture, dentistry or whatever and ask them where the best paid, easiest, most secure and best pensioned jobs are and they will always say public sector.

You are joking, right? Practice partners in veterinary, or dentistry or architecture would be earning two to three times their public sector equivalents.

runawaybishop

runawaybishop wrote: »

Not in IT they wouldnt.

Not in it, veterinary, architecture or dentistry either.

Dunno what he compares me too, security I suppose. Same as prison staff.

Private sector for a soldier? Mercenary? No, they definitely get paid less!

He's talking through his angry little disgruntled hat and using very narrow moved maths to try and bank it up. The Irish is in the fact that he consistently ignored the evidence against his arguments and then repeats them again.

Snow Garden

Pay restoration? Do any public sector workers feel that their salaries and allowances during boom years were excessively generous because of Bertie's benchmarking within the context of a false boom?

I worked in the public service pre 2008 and even then many of us knew that Bertie's benchmarking had made our pay, conditions and allowances (some ludicrous) excessively generous, all things considered. Especially since the actual services weren't improving and there were major performance issues, bureaucratic problems and chronic absenteeism. I would view pay restoration to those 'boom' levels as not logical, especially not now.

Geuze

Snow Garden wrote: »

Pay restoration? Do any public sector workers feel that their salaries during boom years were excessively generous because of Bertie's benchmarking within the context of a false boom?

Yes, and this pay premium has declined over time.

During recent years, private sector pay growth has been faster, so the pay premium has declined.

There is still a PS pay premium for some grades.