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Public service pay cut?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭addaword


    Addaword, if the public service is so rewarding. Why don't you come work with us?

    I made sure my kids got jobs I the public service, next best thing.


  • Posts: 8,647 [Deleted User]


    addaword wrote: »
    I made sure my kids got jobs I the public service, next best thing.

    I can't wait for my pension pot of 2 million. Is this true? What would your average earnings need to be?

    How much of a pension would you get if you averaged 80-120k over the course of your career?


  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    addaword wrote: »
    I made sure my kids got jobs I the public service, next best thing.

    Ah so you want your kids to take a pay cut.

    No nice retirement home for you then.

    Also just on this, guy I worked with until he was made redundant last November got a job with the civil service in January.

    He's 63 and he has I believe the option to work until he's 70, so never to late for you to join if you have the necessary skills they are looking for.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    addaword wrote: »
    I made sure my kids got jobs I the public service, next best thing.

    So you want your children to have their pay cut, to face being laid off and to have their pension reduced. Unbelievable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭addaword


    So you want your children to have their pay cut, to face being laid off and to have their pension reduced. Unbelievable.

    Not necessarily. Because the government is having to borrow about €30,000,000,000 this year, or whatever figure it ends up at, and because the government will need to reduce the average public sector salary of 50k per year, does not necessarily mean all ps staff should have their pay reduced. And p.s. people should not be laid off unless they are totally useless.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,504 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    All heat and no light, plus fantasists about the public services with the odd sensible point from Geuze.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭dundalkfc10


    addaword wrote: »
    I made sure my kids got jobs I the public service, next best thing.

    You cant make sure your kids get a job in the Public Service.

    They go through same recruitment process themselves as everyone else in the public service.

    Maybe you made them apply. (Id hope they wanted to work there and didn't do it to keep you happy, or they could have miserable lives)


  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭addaword


    You cant make sure your kids get a job in the Public Service.

    They go through same recruitment process themselves as everyone else in the public service.

    Maybe you made them apply. (Id hope they wanted to work there and didn't do it to keep you happy, or they could have miserable lives)

    They talked to relations and friends from both sectors and not surprisingly wanted the better pay, security, pension, etc of the public sector.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Melanchthon


    mariaalice wrote: »
    All heat and no light, plus fantasists about the public services with the odd sensible point from Geuze.

    It's pointless because there is never any nuance at all in these discussions everything is always considered together.

    Are entry level clerical officers well paid, no they are terribly paid particularly if they are based in Dublin. On the flip side of someone has stayed at CO grade for decade are they actually a decent worker.

    Is the public sector staff review system effective, unless something has changed in last year or two no? This is a funny one for the PS defenders to try and rebut because it's something it's something that have heard PS staff that are above the lowest levels complain about themselves.

    This is anecdotal but a lot of types of healthcare workers never got really got sucked into the expected crisis. Also even using the figures coming out of the much worse hit UK don't show the expected mortality among healthcare workers- remember how many people work in the NHS it's a vast organisation.

    Conflating a pay restoration/rise with getting a pay cut, the country is not in normal times, going through with this pay restoration at a time when the private sector is being decimated is going to leave a sour taste for a lot of workers.

    The Coronavirus payout is temporary and a lot of people on it are going to end up on the normal dole soon, it was also a kneejerk response the quasi-legal language school worker that earned 250 a week and has 3 months of stamps is getting the same amount as the Irish PAYE worker who used to be on 700 a week and who has years of PRSI contributions behind them.


    Would the public sector advocates on here be happy if PS workers earning under 30k got their pay restoration but those over had a freeze on increments for a year or two.
    Would they prefer the pay restoration happened but redundancies occured with a real performance and role reviews culling 2-5% of staff.
    Would Dublin weighting be tolerated by PS workers living outside that region?


  • Posts: 8,647 [Deleted User]


    It's pointless because there is never any nuance at all in these discussions everything is always considered together.

    Are entry level clerical officers well paid, no they are terribly paid particularly if they are based in Dublin. On the flip side of someone has stayed at CO grade for decade are they actually a decent worker.

    Is the public sector staff review system effective, unless something has changed in last year or two no? This is a funny one for the PS defenders to try and rebut because it's something it's something that have heard PS staff that are above the lowest levels complain about themselves.

    This is anecdotal but a lot of types of healthcare workers never got really got sucked into the expected crisis. Also even using the figures coming out of the much worse hit UK don't show the expected mortality among healthcare workers- remember how many people work in the NHS it's a vast organisation.

    Conflating a pay restoration/rise with getting a pay cut, the country is not in normal times, going through with this pay restoration at a time when the private sector is being decimated is going to leave a sour taste for a lot of workers.

    The Coronavirus payout is temporary and a lot of people on it are going to end up on the normal dole soon, it was also a kneejerk response the quasi-legal language school worker that earned 250 a week and has 3 months of stamps is getting the same amount as the Irish PAYE worker who used to be on 700 a week and who has years of PRSI contributions behind them.


    Would the public sector advocates on here be happy if PS workers earning under 30k got their pay restoration but those over had a freeze on increments for a year or two.
    Would they prefer the pay restoration happened but redundancies occured with a real performance and role reviews culling 2-5% of staff.
    Would Dublin weighting be tolerated by PS workers living outside that region?

    I would be happy with a pay restoration freeze alongside an increase in income tax across the board ( but ASC/PRD withdrawn).

    Obviously fantasy stuff but the ASC/PRD is a bitter pill to swallow.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,820 ✭✭✭smelly sock


    Does that large gap really exist or is it just down to fancy accounting from a lot of the private sector self employed people.

    I'd imagine it's IBEC and their shills bring creative with numbers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    :P
    This is anecdotal but a lot of types of healthcare workers never got really got sucked into the expected crisis. Also even using the figures coming out of the much worse hit UK don't show the expected mortality among healthcare workers- remember how many people work in the NHS it's a vast organisation.

    Would the public sector advocates on here be happy if PS workers earning under 30k got their pay restoration but those over had a freeze on increments for a year or two.
    Would they prefer the pay restoration happened but redundancies occured with a real performance and role reviews culling 2-5% of staff.
    Would Dublin weighting be tolerated by PS workers living outside that region?

    Yeah, the occupations that have been highest risk of dying from Covid-19 in the UK are things like security, social care workers and bus drivers. I think Healthcare workers are over represented in terms of young people dying but not overall across all age groups. Most of the Healthcare workers who died are BAME.

    A big issue in Nursing Homes is that care assistants are very poorly paid and some agency staff can be living in crowded accommodation, hostels and direct provision. Nursing homes will pay minimum wage and cream it themselves. HSE staff are mostly well paid and the people working hardest at the moment are outsourced staff like cleaners.

    It wouldn't bother me too much if there were freezes on increments this year. I think they will happen in the next year or two. The economy is going to be in the ****ter and loads and loads in the private sector will lose jobs and have pay cuts. I think the expectation that set increments (which seem to be mostly a thing in the PS) will be paid despite catastrophic hits to the economy is mad.

    If freezes and cuts are made the priority should be shielding the lowest paid workers. I can't imagine my own union will be out on strike if there are cuts but I think some other PS unions probably will threaten it. And provided the lowest paid workers have been protected I wouldn't care. The likes of the teaching unions seemed to be angling towards strikes before this all happened (you'd think they were the only ones on two separate salary scales) so it will interesting to see how that goes. They won't be striking until they're back in classrooms anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    I would be happy with a pay restoration freeze alongside an increase in income tax across the board ( but ASC/PRD withdrawn).

    Obviously fantasy stuff but the ASC/PRD is a bitter pill to swallow.

    You know fine well the population demographics are changing with people living longer and more pensioners.

    How else do you propose the increased cost be paid for? You want others not in your pension scheme to chip in so you get your pension at no extra cost to you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭addaword


    If freezes and cuts are made the priority should be shielding the lowest paid workers. I can't imagine my own union will be out on strike if there are cuts but I think some other PS unions probably will threaten it. And provided the lowest paid workers have been protected I wouldn't care. The likes of the teaching unions seemed to be angling towards strikes before this all happened (you'd think they were the only ones on two separate salary scales) so it will interesting to see how that goes. They won't be striking until they're back in classrooms anyway.

    One thing for sure, they never strike in June, July or August anyway!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭matthewmurdock


    addaword wrote: »
    They talked to relations and friends from both sectors and not surprisingly wanted the better pay, security, pension, etc of the public sector.

    Security I'll give you.

    But please let me and my colleagues know about this "better pay and pension". My take home pay right now after deductions (including 20 per week for health insurance) is 60/70 euro more than the covid payment. I worked throughout this crisis for 60/70 a week more than people who were sitting at home watching netflix. And people think it's fair to take more money from us? Most of us are not "well paid", this is a lie and seeing people continually propagate it is pathetic.

    Anybody on decent money is somebody who has been working a long time or who got promoted. That is how a pay scale works. So they have accumulated experience and expertise.

    I joined hoping to get a promotion and am doing a degree to facilitate this. As it stands it looks like there could be another recruitment freeze in the offing. If I dont get my promotion I'll never be able to afford a house or start a family. That is the reality of public sector for most of us. Not the nonsense you're peddling.


  • Posts: 8,647 [Deleted User]


    salonfire wrote: »
    You know fine well the population demographics are changing with people living longer and more pensioners.

    How else do you propose the increased cost be paid for? You want others not in your pension scheme to chip in so you get your pension at no extra cost to you?

    It's partially to compensate for my lack of earnings compared to the private sector. I'm probably on equivalent money to what a community pharmacist straight out of college earned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    It's partially to compensate for my lack of earnings compared to the private sector. I'm probably on equivalent money to what a community pharmacist straight out of college earned.

    Nonsense.

    On other threads, you are boasting away how much you earn and now all of a sudden you are paid as a lowly graduate.

    You are paid more than than the €40-50,000 of a pharmacy grad.

    Lies and bull****.


  • Posts: 8,647 [Deleted User]


    salonfire wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    On other threads, you are boasting away how much you earn and now all of a sudden you are paid as a lowly graduate.

    You are paid more than than the €40-50,000 of a pharmacy grad.

    Lies and bull****.

    Those aren't correct for a pharmacist 1 year qualified. Anyway. I'm not getting dragged into this conversation as it's off topic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 279 ✭✭HartsHat


    It's pointless because there is never any nuance at all in these discussions everything is always considered together.

    Are entry level clerical officers well paid, no they are terribly paid particularly if they are based in Dublin. On the flip side of someone has stayed at CO grade for decade are they actually a decent worker.

    Is the public sector staff review system effective, unless something has changed in last year or two no? This is a funny one for the PS defenders to try and rebut because it's something it's something that have heard PS staff that are above the lowest levels complain about themselves.

    This is anecdotal but a lot of types of healthcare workers never got really got sucked into the expected crisis. Also even using the figures coming out of the much worse hit UK don't show the expected mortality among healthcare workers- remember how many people work in the NHS it's a vast organisation.

    Conflating a pay restoration/rise with getting a pay cut, the country is not in normal times, going through with this pay restoration at a time when the private sector is being decimated is going to leave a sour taste for a lot of workers.

    The Coronavirus payout is temporary and a lot of people on it are going to end up on the normal dole soon, it was also a kneejerk response the quasi-legal language school worker that earned 250 a week and has 3 months of stamps is getting the same amount as the Irish PAYE worker who used to be on 700 a week and who has years of PRSI contributions behind them.


    Would the public sector advocates on here be happy if PS workers earning under 30k got their pay restoration but those over had a freeze on increments for a year or two.
    Would they prefer the pay restoration happened but redundancies occured with a real performance and role reviews culling 2-5% of staff.
    Would Dublin weighting be tolerated by PS workers living outside that region?

    Agree on staff review. It is no way effective. Probation in particular should be stricter with more gotten rid of. Not sure you'd get many within the Civil Services defending PMDS.

    As to your last three options. I'd be happy with (i) and absolutely delighted with (ii).

    With regard to (iii) it would benefit me personally and probably be fair, but I think for the benefit of society as a whole it wouldn't be a good idea as the perception that Dublin gets too much is already corrosive and it's no harm for there to be some incentive for people to work in the PS but outside Dublin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    Hindsight is a wonderful thing as they say.

    I know 2 lads in my job, both saving for houses when the crash happened. They held on until about 2009/2010 and then bought. Paid less than half what I did.

    Then there's anyone who happened to sell just before the crash but hadn't finalised their next place so the cash was in the bank. Even up in nicer houses with smaller mortgages than they started with.

    Ah well.

    Well, we were ready to buy last year and we got cold feet - I think we are going to hang on now a couple more years until we see how bad things get. So I am hoping I might be one of those lucky people.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭dundalkfc10


    Id agree with anyone on over €60,000 take a 10% pay cut.

    TD's wages reduced by 20% at least and pensions reduced by 10%

    Tax the banks.

    Needs be other cuts, anyone on dole more than 2 years, No dole money, Vouchers for food heating etc....

    Checks need to be done on all the single mothers claims when they are living with the partner in social houses (saying he is not living there) and money stopped

    If the country wants, loads of money can be saved


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I would be happy with a pay restoration freeze alongside an increase in income tax across the board ( but ASC/PRD withdrawn).

    Obviously fantasy stuff but the ASC/PRD is a bitter pill to swallow.

    Given that the pre 2013 PS pension is a good pension, I think paying just the normal 6.5% cont is too low.

    So I think the PRD/ASC is here to stay.

    Note that the 10% PRD/ASC starts at 32k, is it 34k this year?

    This is what some PS pay in the UK:


    UK Teachers Pension Scheme - unfunded DB pension

    https://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/members/member-hub.aspx

    EE = 7.4% increasing in bands up to 11.7%


    UK USS - university staff (private scheme) https://www.uss.co.uk/

    EE = 9.6%
    ER = 21.1%


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Geuze wrote: »
    Given that the pre 2013 PS pension is a good pension, I think paying just the normal 6.5% cont is too low.

    So I think the PRD/ASC is here to stay.

    Note that the 10% PRD/ASC starts at 32k, is it 34k this year?

    This is what some PS pay in the UK:


    UK Teachers Pension Scheme - unfunded DB pension

    https://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/members/member-hub.aspx

    EE = 7.4% increasing in bands up to 11.7%


    UK USS - university staff (private scheme) https://www.uss.co.uk/

    EE = 9.6%
    ER = 21.1%

    You could argue the post 2013 entrants are overpaying to their pension with a dummy whammy of PRD and reduced pension.

    But that's the result of not tackling the top heavy pension liability for older entrants. The younger must carry the can.

    Same for private sector workers, the young are paying for a pension that won't even exist.

    At least post 2013 public sector are guaranteed a pension.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    salonfire wrote: »
    You could argue the post 2013 entrants are overpaying to their pension with a dummy whammy of PRD and reduced pension.

    Post 2013 ASC is lower, although you'd need to model whether the different ASC compensates for the lower benefits.

    2020 ASC rates


    Members of the older Pension Schemes:
     €0 - €34,500 – 0%
     €34,500 – €60,000 – 10%
     €60,000 – 10.5%

    Members of the Single Public Service Pension Scheme:
     €0 - €34,500 – 0%
     €34,500 – €60,000 – 3.33%
     €60,000 – 3.5%


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Geuze wrote: »
    Post 2013 ASC is lower, although you'd need to model whether the different ASC compensates for the lower benefits.

    2020 ASC rates


    Members of the older Pension Schemes:
     €0 - €34,500 – 0%
     €34,500 – €60,000 – 10%
     €60,000 – 10.5%

    Members of the Single Public Service Pension Scheme:
     €0 - €34,500 – 0%
     €34,500 – €60,000 – 3.33%
     €60,000 – 3.5%

    Oh wow, I did not know they deductions were lower. I withdraw my previous post then so!!

    Wait, does that mean the post 2013 folk have a higher take home pay than those pre 2013 on the same salary?

    How come we never hear that?!


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Geuze wrote: »
    Post 2013 ASC is lower, although you'd need to model whether the different ASC compensates for the lower benefits.

    2020 ASC rates


    Members of the older Pension Schemes:
     €0 - €34,500 – 0%
     €34,500 – €60,000 – 10%
     €60,000 – 10.5%

    Members of the Single Public Service Pension Scheme:
     €0 - €34,500 – 0%
     €34,500 – €60,000 – 3.33%
     €60,000 – 3.5%

    Could be complete BS.


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,078 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I can't wait for my pension pot of 2 million. Is this true?

    No. These pension pots don't exist. The Indo figured out a few years back though that it was a handy way to fool the easily deluded, and now shamefully the Irish Times is at it too.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    No. These pension pots don't exist. The Indo figured out a few years back though that it was a handy way to fool the easily deluded, and now shamefully the Irish Times is at it too.

    They don't exist because the pensions are paid from the current account primarily because our cyclical boom, bust economy would eat up any actual fund very quickly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    salonfire wrote: »
    Oh wow, I did not know they deductions were lower. I withdraw my previous post then so!!

    Wait, does that mean the post 2013 folk have a higher take home pay than those pre 2013 on the same salary?

    How come we never hear that?!

    Yes.

    When the PRD was converted into the ASC, as part of the PSSA, different rates of ASC were introduced.

    See here:

    https://www.forsa.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/PSSA-pdf.pdf

    Section 6.


    Seems to be the same document here:
    https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/6618/394821552e784f17aa5407e8af32e410.pdf#page=1


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Geuze wrote: »
    Yes.

    When the PRD was converted into the ASC, as part of the PSSA, different rates of ASC were introduced.

    See here:

    https://www.forsa.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/PSSA-pdf.pdf

    Section 6.


    Seems to be the same document here:
    https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/6618/394821552e784f17aa5407e8af32e410.pdf#page=1

    Funny how teachers and nurses proproganda campaign clamouring for equal salaries never mention that new entrants would have a GREATER take home pay than older staff.

    They are given plenty of air time


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