Public service pay cut?

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Melanchthon wrote: »

Would Dublin weighting be tolerated by PS workers living outside that region?

This is a bit off topic but I think this is a really good question. I was offered a promotion which would have involved either commuting or me moving to Dublin. I turned it down as I'd have been down money at the end of the week. I wouldn't begrudge Dublin-based workers an allowance/premium, especially lower paid workers. I don't know how anyone would live there starting on 24k.

Lux23

Lux23 wrote: »

Well, we were ready to buy last year and we got cold feet - I think we are going to hang on now a couple more years until we see how bad things get. So I am hoping I might be one of those lucky people.

I wish you well and good hunting then.

addaword

addaword wrote: »

You do know that all of your income, including income tax, came from money the private sector collected and submitted through vat, income tax etc...or else is money the government is borrowing?

Nope. That's just the little mouse in your brain thinking for you.

Again, all workers regardless of sector, circulate funds. If all sectors were brought into the public domain aka communism, the money would still mix and people would still be paid.

You don't make any money, the money is there, the only 'wealth' you generate is for your boss because he makes more the he spends.

addaword

addaword wrote: »

We know the pension pot of the average Gardai retiring after only 30 years is worth 1.8 million, according to the Irish Times, but are you calling them millionaires now, just because it is spread out over their retirement?

And as regards part time workers, are you including part time staff in the public service, teachers and lecturers who have 3 months off and work short hours etc?

We don't know that because you don't understand what you read, no surprise there.

Teachers hours are full-time. The time off is allowed for in their hours. They have to actually prepare classes and exams. Not surprising you couldn't figure that out for yourself really.

What part-time staff are you referring to? I'm referring to zero hour minimum wage staff, weekend staff, college students working after classes and so on but then you know that.

In reality you know all this but you keep ignoring the points you can't argue against because your a bitter twisted little man that when all is said and done, has very little grasp of the issues at hand. Thus you convince yourself that you are a 'wealth generator' that the public sector need because that helps you get over the jealousy.

Again, you can sign up. Gardai have recruited multiple times since the recession. Or at least you can apply. The chip on your shoulder might effect your balance.

ParkRunner

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Nope. That's just the little mouse in your brain thinking for you.

Again, all workers regardless of sector, circulate funds. If all sectors were brought into the public domain aka communism, the money would still mix and people would still be paid.

You don't make any money, the money is there, the only 'wealth' you generate is for your boss because he makes more the he spends.

Also many public services charge for providing a service and are self sufficient and even profit making within their own services. Some of this money is even generated abroad and is put into the Irish pot.

riddles

The lack of any kind of proactive approach from the department of education in Covid has been nothing short of appalling. In fact its reactive approach has been just as bad.

One kid in national school - no contact from the school in five weeks and no access to the books.

One in secondary school getting loaded on work with no coordination among teachers of workload volume.

How hard would it have been to create remote virtual classroom offering per year in primary albeit not a two way engagement per class year for 3 hours a day and then the current teacher distributes and corrects homework

A similar model per subject and year in secondary.

The department of education and a lot of the teaching community have absolutely no interest in their roles. A function currently totally unfit for purpose and in urgent need of reform.

PS the only current measure still active in the PS is whether you swipe in every day. Most don’t even have laptops and are at home on full pay. Others are literally swamped in work which is a representation of the PS in normal operations. About 30% carrying the 70% that do SFA.

Mandatory min work in health and education following completion of training should be standard. Doctors, nurses should have to do minimum period of service before going abroad. As with teachers it should be a minimum of 5/6 years in a full time role before a career break can be applied for. The current model is to get a full time roll lock it in and then head abroad leaving others having to get by on temporary contracts with unclear hours which is unfair.

salonfire

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

You don't make any money, the money is there, the only 'wealth' you generate is for your boss because he makes more the he spends.

Complete and utter nonsense detached from all reality.

The money to run this country comes from the private sector. We don't have any natural resources so we rely on the private sector to export to being in money from other countries.

If the money is already there, why was Ireland so poor until economic reforms in the 60s, including lowering cooperation tax?

salonfire

salonfire wrote: »

Complete and utter nonsense detached from all reality.

The money to run this country comes from the private sector. We don't have any natural resources so we rely on the private sector to export to being in money from other countries.

If the money is already there, why was Ireland so poor until economic reforms in the 60s, including lowering cooperation tax?

Oh dear heaven save us.

I'm not dishing out economics lessons to each person. Just go read up on global economics and then Google the definition of 'create'. While your at it, see what it says about customers. Pretty sure your company relies on their money.

Actual true creating of money is not a good way to deal with your economic worries and that's why the amount of the stuff is limited. The private sector doesn't create wealth, it's a cog in the machine that is economics.

How do you think nationalising a private company works? The company just suddenly becomes a liability that requires massive injections of funds? Vice versa, that pricing privatisation suddenly changes the financial liability of a service?

All public services could be privatised, all private companies could be nationalised and still function. The finances aren't the most important aspect of a company in all cases and that's why ESSENTIAL Amenities and services tends to be public and funded from taxes.

salonfire

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Oh dear heaven save us.

I'm not dishing out economics lessons to each person. Just go read up on global economics and then Google the definition of 'create'.

Actual true creating of money is not a good way to deal with your economic worries and that's why the amount of the stuff is limited. The private sector doesn't create wealth, it's a cog in the machine that is economics.

How do you think nationalising a private company works? The company just suddenly becomes a liability that requires massive injections of funds?

What are you on about? You are answering questions nobody asked. Are you talking to yourself?

The money to run the country comes from abroad through exports. Nobody is suggesting creating wealth from nothing.

addaword

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

because your a bitter twisted little man

Charming.

Do you think you could be a little more pleasant please? Next time I will report you.

Geuze

riddles wrote: »

The lack of any kind of proactive approach from the department of education in Covid has been nothing short of appalling. In fact its reactive approach has been just as bad.

One kid in national school - no contact from the school in five weeks and no access to the books.

One in secondary school getting loaded on work with no coordination among teachers of workload volume.

How hard would it have been to create remote virtual classroom offering per year in primary albeit not a two way engagement per class year for 3 hours a day and then the current teacher distributes and corrects homework

Is this true?

You should post this in the Teaching forum.

My kids primary school sends e-mails on Thur/Fri with a list of all the work to be done next week, by day and by subject, with associated links to web resources.

An app called Seesaw is used to upload images of the work done, and the teacher provides feedback through Seesaw.

There is some other app called Alladin, I think it tracks attendance?

If there has been no contact from the school, I would send an e-mail to the teacher and/or Principal about it.

Hotblack Desiato

riddles wrote: »

One kid in national school - no contact from the school in five weeks and no access to the books.

Not the experience with my two at all, school arranged for books to be collected at an early stage, there is work (and answers) provided every day and weekly Zoom calls for each class.

Problem is the whole way our education system is structured, in effect each school is its own little fiefdom and is controlled by the patron not the Dept. Dept pays the bills and sets curricula and issues circulars (which the school implements if they feel like it) but otherwise schools do what they like - unless they upset the patron, 96% of the time that's a bishop. 21st century Ireland, ladies and gentlemen.

Most don’t even have laptops and are at home on full pay.

Bullshít. This has been explained many times on the thread so I'm not going into it again just for your benefit.

salonfire wrote: »

We don't have any natural resources

People are a resource - provided they're healthy and educated that is - who is it who provides those services again?

addaword wrote: »

Do you think you could be a little more pleasant please? Next time I will report you.

Step 5 of the manual - act all innocent and offended when your BS is called out :rolleyes:

AndrewJRenko

salonfire wrote: »

Complete and utter nonsense detached from all reality.

The money to run this country comes from the private sector. We don't have any natural resources so we rely on the private sector to export to being in money from other countries.

If the money is already there, why was Ireland so poor until economic reforms in the 60s, including lowering cooperation tax?

Just in case you missed it, the private sector money-making activities are built on the foundations produced by the public sector - education, healthcare, infrastructure, regulation.

Without a strong society, the private sector does not prosper.

AndrewJRenko

riddles wrote: »

How hard would it have been to create remote virtual classroom offering per year in primary albeit not a two way engagement per class year for 3 hours a day and then the current teacher distributes and corrects homework

A similar model per subject and year in secondary.

How hard would it be? it would be maybe 6-12 months for a skilled team of instructional designers per subject, along with access to a team of subject matter experts to produce the content. Then you'll need the accessibility experts to ensure that the content works for all students, including those with sight loss or hearing loss. Then you'll need to test it out, review the pilot feedback, then you'll need the LMS to host it all on.

I'd bet it would be more than €10 million project to do this for the primary curriculum, at a time when most school broadband connections have less bandwidth than your mobile phone. But if you can find someone to do it for less than that, let me know.

And not all teachers have laptops or tablets, so how they supposed to manage their students on the service?

riddles wrote: »

PS the only current measure still active in the PS is whether you swipe in every day. Most don’t even have laptops and are at home on full pay. Others are literally swamped in work which is a representation of the PS in normal operations. About 30% carrying the 70% that do SFA.

I don't suppose there is any chance you could be specific about what organisations/functions/staff have 'most at home on full pay' not doing their job? As far as I can see, most of those without corporate laptops are kindly using their own personal equipment to do their work, at no cost to their employer - but maybe you know different?

AndrewJRenko

HartsHat wrote: »

Agree on staff review. It is no way effective. Probation in particular should be stricter with more gotten rid of.

Why should more be gotten rid of? If you're recruitment process works, you won't need to be getting rid of any. What would be your suggested target for the percentage to get rid of?

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And not all teachers have laptops or tablets, so how they supposed to manage their students on the service?


I don't suppose there is any chance you could be specific about what organisations/functions/staff have 'most at home on full pay' not doing their job? As far as I can see, most of those without corporate laptops are kindly using their own personal equipment to do their work, at no cost to their employer - but maybe you know different?

I think we all have friends or relations or neighbours we know who are at home on full pay not doing their job. As you say though, it is not their fault the government has not given them tablets or laptops.

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

I think we all have friends or relations or neighbours we know who are at home on full pay not doing their job. As you say though, it is not their fault the government has not given them tablets or laptops.

I don't have any friends or relations or neighbours that I know are at home on full pay not doing their job. The ones that I know are the ones who have paid for their own new laptop to do their job, because they previously got away with a tablet at home. The ones that I know are the ones who bought and paid for their own personal smartphone to use for the two-factor-authentication login to do their job. The ones that I know are the ones who've gone out and bought their own desk, or chair, or monitor to do their job at their own expense. The ones that I know are the ones who paid extra costs to heat their own house in daytime during March and April to do their job.

What organisations do the ones that you know at home on full pay work for please?

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I don't have any friends or relations or neighbours that I know are at home on full pay not doing their job. The ones that I know are the ones who have paid for their own new laptop to do their job, because they previously got away with a tablet. The ones that I know are the ones who've gone out and bought their own desk, or chair, or monitor to do their job at their own expense. The ones that I know are the ones who paid extra costs to heat their own house in daytime during March and April to do their job.

What organisations do the ones that you know at home on full pay work for please?

You said not all teachers have laptops or tablets, and hence they are excused from doing their job from home.

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

You said not all teachers have laptops or tablets, and hence they are excused from doing their job from home.

I did say anything about them being excused. You've just made that up.

So again I ask, what organisations do the ones that you know at home on full pay work for please?

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And not all teachers have laptops or tablets, so how they supposed to manage their students on the service?

How indeed are the poor teachers supposed to work from home. It is not fair on the poor dears.

riddles

Geuze wrote: »

Is this true?

You should post this in the Teaching forum.

My kids primary school sends e-mails on Thur/Fri with a list of all the work to be done next week, by day and by subject, with associated links to web resources.

An app called Seesaw is used to upload images of the work done, and the teacher provides feedback through Seesaw.

There is some other app called Alladin, I think it tracks attendance?

If there has been no contact from the school, I would send an e-mail to the teacher and/or Principal about it.

the Seesaw app took 5 weeks to materialise all the books locked up in the school working off the CJFallon site.

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

How indeed are the poor teachers supposed to work from home. It is not fair on the poor dears.

Again, you're just making up stuff. That's not what I said, and the context of that comment was about online services for student. I made the not unreasonable point that if you're going to expect teachers to engage with students via online services, you need to provide them with the tools to do that, specifically a laptop.

But you seem to have missed the question I asked twice now, what organisations do the ones that you know at home on full pay work for please?

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And not all teachers have laptops or tablets, so how they supposed to manage their students on the service?

Indeed you did say the above, at 14.43 today.

How are the poor teachers expected to work from home if they do not have laptops or tablets, as you say?

It is not just some poorly qualified members of the ps who are stranded at home on full pay without a tablet or laptop.

There are some members of the p.s. of course working efficiently from home.

Vizzy

addaword wrote: »

But you seem to have missed the question I asked twice now, what organisations do the ones that you know at home on full pay work for please?

Can you give us any indication when you are likely to answer this ?

Or were you just making it up ?

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

Indeed you did say the above, at 14.43 today.

How are the poor teachers expected to work from home if they do not have laptops or tablets, as you say?

It is not just some poorly qualified members of the ps who are stranded at home on full pay without a tablet or laptop.

There are some members of the p.s. of course working efficiently from home.

You don't seem to be very good at attention to detail.

There is a difference between "How indeed are the poor teachers supposed to work from home. It is not fair on the poor dears." and "And not all teachers have laptops or tablets, so how they supposed to manage their students on the service?"

I referred specifically to the work involved in managing students on an online service. You twisted this into 'working from home'. They are two different scenarios.

Some teachers will be able to work from home without a laptop, depending on the nature of the work. They may be able to stay in touch by email or by video message or chat using a smart phone. They won't be able to manage a class on an online platform via a smart phone. They would need a laptop for that.

That's the difference.

Here's what one teacher is doing, btw - not quite sitting on her arse on the couch as you would make out.

https://twitter.com/TarynDeVere/status/1263210208169517059

Do I need to repeat the question a fourth time, or we just going to agree that you made up that bit?

Jim Root

addaword wrote: »

How indeed are the poor teachers supposed to work from home. It is not fair on the poor dears.

I see they are now refusing the grade the students. God bless their union.

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Some teachers will be able to work from home without a laptop, depending on the nature of the work. They may be able to stay in touch by email or by video message or chat using a smart phone. They won't be able to manage a class on an online platform via a smart phone.t?

You said some teachers do not have a laptop or tablet, or access to same. The poor dears. Are you claiming such teachers were forced by the school to teach using their own personal smartphones all day every day? That is absurd. The teachers were never even sent on a course on how to use a smartphone. Do you realise how damaging using a smartphone all day every day can be on a person's health? What compensation package is on offer from the schools for this? Will the schools pay for new smartphones or wear and tear to the teachers own phones?

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Here's what one teacher is doing, btw - not quite sitting on her arse on the couch as you would make out.

https://twitter.com/TarynDeVere/status/1263210208169517059

?

Was that from one of the schools where pupils had not heard from a teacher otherwise in 5 weeks?
God bless the schools where teachers at least sent out some work by email once a week, every Monday morning.
Some other schools I know had teachers working every day.

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And not all teachers have laptops or tablets, so how they supposed to manage their students on the service?

Excuse of the month, which you posted at 14.43 yesterday.

So it it not just lowly civil servants and office staff working from home who do not have laptops or tablets or computers.

AndrewJRenko

Jim Root wrote: »

I see they are now refusing the grade the students. God bless their union.

Just to be clear, they are refusing to accept personal financial liability for legal costs arising from any legal actions that result from grading students, but don't let any facts get in your way.

addaword wrote: »

Indeed you did say the above, at 14.43 today.

How are the poor teachers expected to work from home if they do not have laptops or tablets, as you say?

It is not just some poorly qualified members of the ps who are stranded at home on full pay without a tablet or laptop.

There are some members of the p.s. of course working efficiently from home.

addaword wrote: »

Excuse of the month, which you posted at 14.43 yesterday.

So it it not just lowly civil servants and office staff working from home who do not have laptops or tablets or computers.

addaword wrote: »

Was that from one of the schools where pupils had not heard from a teacher otherwise in 5 weeks?
God bless the schools where teachers at least sent out some work by email once a week, every Monday morning.
Some other schools I know had teachers working every day.

addaword wrote: »

You said some teachers do not have a laptop or tablet, or access to same. The poor dears. Are you claiming such teachers were forced by the school to teach using their own personal smartphones all day every day? That is absurd. The teachers were never even sent on a course on how to use a smartphone. Do you realise how damaging using a smartphone all day every day can be on a person's health? What compensation package is on offer from the schools for this? Will the schools pay for new smartphones or wear and tear to the teachers own phones?

It's quite fascinating to see the efforts to confuse and blur the issue. Unfortunately for you, the issues are very clear. Here's a quick summary:

1) You have failed to give any detail to back up your claim about people sitting at home on full pay, despite multiple requests from multiple users.

2) My point about teachers and laptops was in the context of them being expected to manage students on an online platform, no more and no less.

So for the fifth time, what organisations are these people who are sitting at home doing nothing on full pay employed by please?