Public service pay cut?

n97 mini

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

How about we first of all identify who are these librarians doing no work? Where are they? Have they been reassigned by their local authority to other departments, or to the HSE for contact tracing? Do they actually exist anywhere beyond your own imagination?

As I said earlier to another poster, it was a general statement. Those that have no work have no work! Private or public sector.

So would you agree that...

those that have no work should be temporarily put on the C19 payment?

AndrewJRenko

noodler wrote: »

Pay increases every year.

Increments too.

And a plethora of sector specific deals.

I don't know why colleagues in the service have this feeling of being "owed". There was alot taken off people during the last recession.

It is quite entitled, and a bit disrespectful to the taxpayer generally, to even deny the increase in pay over the last year which have contributed to a couple of billion euro increase in the PS pay bill

It doesn't matter how many times you say it - there have been no pay increases since 2008. There has been some restoration of some of the cuts, but not all.

addaword

According to the Irish Times, a Garda retiring at 60 with a €102,000 lump sum and €34,000 pension would have their pot valued at €1.8 million, including the spouse’s benefit. An ordinary public servant, retiring with a €60,000 lump sum and €20,000 pension has benefits worth €850,000 in private-sector terms.

AndrewJRenko

n97 mini wrote: »

As I said earlier to another poster, it was a general statement. Those that have no work have no work! Private or public sector.

So would you agree that...

So you're not aware of any examples of public servants with no work then?

noodler

Geuze wrote: »

Here are some details of the past four pay deals, AFAIK

(1) Croke Park agreement - two pay cuts


https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/89ddb8-croke-park-agreement/?referrer=/en/croke-park-agreement/


PDF file of agreement:

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/6622/243d1eeba2634e08845131ffc96df7f0.pdf#page=1


(2) Haddington road: more hours to work, third pay cut for >65k

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/3b1739-haddington-road-agreement/?referrer=/haddington-road-agreement/

PDF:
https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/6623/f5412f648cc74dccb9493859c9355051.pdf#page=1

FAQs:
https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/25399/bcfdf41436d444148d4c2dce99935fa3.pdf#page=1



Also 10% less for new entrants somewhere in (1) or (2)


(3) Lansdowne Road agreement - this was the first pay restoration

• PRD threshold increased from 15k to 28,750.

• A flat extra 1,000 pa for all workers

• HRA extra pay cuts for people on over 65k were reversed



(4) Current PSSA

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/432f22-public-service-stability-agreement-2018-2020/

PDF:
https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/6618/394821552e784f17aa5407e8af32e410.pdf#page=1


The principal pay measures in the agreement are:
• 1 January 2018 annualised salaries were increased by 1%
• 1 October 2018 annualised salaries were increased by 1%
• 1 January 2019 annualised salaries up to €30,000 were increased by 1%
• 1 September 2019 annualised salaries increase by 1.75%
• 1 January 2020 annualised salaries up to €32,000 increase by 0.5%
• 1 October 2020 annualised salaries increase by 2%

It's not always clear why you quote links and copy/paste information.

Thanks for providing a link to the fact there have been annual pay increases since 2016 bit I'm not sure anyone questioned it.

kippy

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

You're the lad with the masters in economics right?

You must have gone to the school where they taught you that taxes only applied to private sector workers. It's a pity, you might have been a contender.


Great thread by the way - It brings me right back to the 2009-2012 period of Irish history where private versus public was the number one billing.

n97 mini

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So you're not aware of any examples of public servants with no work then?

Yes I am, but are you going to answer the question or keep trying to deflect?

Also, while you're at it, do you think it's impossible for over half the private sector to be out of work and not have one public sector worker with nothing to do?

AndrewJRenko

noodler wrote: »

It's not always clear why you quote links and copy/paste information.

Thanks for providing a link to the fact there have been annual pay increases since 2016 bit I'm not sure anyone questioned it.

There have been no increases since before 2007. There has been some restoration of some, but not all, of the cuts.

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So you're not aware of any examples of public servants with no work then?

Of course people know of some public servants with little or no work this past few months.

Jim Root

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It doesn't matter how many times you say it - there have been no pay increases since 2008. There has been some restoration of some of the cuts, but not all.

Did the cash into your bank account go up or down?

AndrewJRenko

addaword wrote: »

According to the Irish Times, a Garda retiring at 60 with a €102,000 lump sum and €34,000 pension would have their pot valued at €1.8 million, including the spouse’s benefit. An ordinary public servant, retiring with a €60,000 lump sum and €20,000 pension has benefits worth €850,000 in private-sector terms.

And your point is?

That people accepted modest salaries over their career to benefit from a decent pension scheme?

Why don't you run the figures for what new entrants post 2013 will come out with under the Single Pension Scheme and see who's impressed?

Geuze

So the pay restorations so far have been:

third pay cut for people over 65k reversed
less PRD/pension levy, as the PRD threshold was increased to 34,500
1,000 pay increase
2018 = 1% and 1%
2019 = 1.75%
2020 = 2% in autumn

noodler

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It doesn't matter how many times you say it - there have been no pay increases since 2008. There has been some restoration of some of the cuts, but not all.

Childish tbh.

Anyway, that's the union view.

The bottom line is there has been a pay increase every year in the public sector. Multiple for some due to increments and sectoral specific deals.


Paybill in 2014: 14.7bn

Paybill in 2020: 19.7bn

Obviously you could only really attribute half of that to pay rates as we have just surpassed the Celtic Tiger peak for numbers employed but they rate increases have been significant.

noodler

noodler wrote: »

Pay increases every year.

Increments too.

And a plethora of sector specific deals.

I don't know why colleagues in the service have this feeling of being "owed". There was alot taken off people during the last recession.

It is quite entitled, and a bit disrespectful to the taxpayer generally, to even deny the increase in pay over the last year which have contributed to a couple of billion euro increase in the PS pay bill

The increase so called was after Savage reductions.
I joined 3 years ago. My first pay slip was €30 more than I had on social welfare (with 2 kids) a few weeks earlier along with the loss of a lot of benefits to add to my joy of working. I was worse off working.

I'm on roughly 450 take home after a 37.5 hour working week. Add to that an 80km round trip every day to work and home. Car, insurance, tax, fuel etc. And don't say use public transport. The nearest bus/ train is 15 km away.
If anyone thinks 450 a week is overpaid, you're in cloud cuckoo land. I was earning more in the private sector until I was made redundant.

purifol0

kippy wrote: »

You're the lad with the masters in economics right?

You must have gone to the school where they taught you that taxes only applied to private sector workers. It's a pity, you might have been a contender.

I dont need a chart for this one lads


The way the country gets income tax:



Private sector>Exchequer>Public sector

Note its not the other way around.


Every public sector worker is another cost to the country's balance sheet that the private sector worker is hit for, no matter how much "tax" is written on their (PubSec) payslip.

kippy

noodler wrote: »

Childish tbh.

Anyway, that's the union view.

The bottom line is there has been a pay increase every year in the public sector. Multiple for some due to increments and sectoral specific deals.


Paybill in 2014: 14.7bn

Paybill in 2020: 19.7bn

Obviously you could only really attribute half of that to pay rates as we have just surpassed the Celtic Tiger peak for numbers employed but they rate increases have been significant.

I agree,
time to slash 25% off the public sector pay and pensions bill in whatever way possible. It's the only way.

addaword

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That people accepted modest salaries over their career to benefit from a decent pension scheme?

According to the Irish Times 2 years ago, Gardai earn on average, about €1,300 a week. You think that is modest, and a Garda retiring at 60 with a €102,000 lump sum and €34,000 pension would have their pot valued at €1.8 million, including the spouse’s benefit is modest?

sabat

How about putting it to the unions that they can have a pay cut or keep the current rates and sack the worst 5% of unverified sick leave takers.

kippy

purifol0 wrote: »

I dont need a chart for this one lads


The way the country gets income tax:



Private sector>Exchequer>Public sector

Note its not the other way around.


Every public sector worker is another cost to the country's balance sheet that the private sector worker is hit for, no matter how much "tax" is written on their (PubSec) payslip.

I get that.
But to make the suggestion that taxes don't apply to the public sector is totally disingenuous.
And to be totally frank about it, increasing taxes across the board saves the state money on each and every public sector worker it employs on top of whatever pay cuts the state imposes on the private sector worker. So while you can say that the moment to run the state generally comes from economic activity and private sector taxes among other things, the taxation of public sector workers is a saving for the state on the cost of running the state.

My issue, is the implication that public sector workers don't get effected by tax cuts - which was the very obvious implication that our friend with a masters in economics was making.

Just waiting till independent news and media get stuck into the public service. They love giving the PS a good kicking.

n97 mini

addaword wrote: »

According to the Irish Times 2 years ago, Gardai earn on average, about €1,300 a week. You think that is modest, and a Garda retiring at 60 with a €102,000 lump sum and €34,000 pension would have their pot valued at €1.8 million, including the spouse’s benefit is modest?

Gardaí are required to perform 30 years' service before they can retire, so many will do so well before 60. My father retired at 52 after 34 years.

n97 mini

kippy wrote: »

But to make the suggestion that taxes don't apply to the public sector is totally disingenuous.

I agree. Only net cost should really be considered. So say we pay €20bn in wages and get €5bn back in tax, the actual cost should be put at €15bn. Bearing in mind of course that if the same metric is applied to the private sector there won't be a net cost, only net gain.

addaword

sabat wrote: »

How about putting it to the unions that they can have a pay cut or keep the current rates and sack the worst 5% of unverified sick leave takers.

Interestingly, when you google it, the number of sick days taken by Ireland's public servants is almost twice that taken by workers in the private sector according to new figures. Public servants average 8.5 sick days each year compared to 4.5 days in the private sector according to figures released by the Department of Public Expenditure.

purifol0

n97 mini wrote: »

Gardaí are required to perform 30 years' service before they can retire, so many will do so well before 60. My father retired at 52 after 34 years.

Wow. Meanwhile the state pension age for the private sector worker is 67!



Fair?

Geuze

kippy wrote: »

I agree,
time to slash 25% off the public sector pay and pensions bill in whatever way possible. It's the only way.

As PS pay for most staff has not recovered to the 2008 levels, you suggestion is utterly unrealistic.



You will be happy to hear that the premium that the PS used to earn over the private sector has been reduced, thanks to the paycuts and slow pay restoration.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/mainresults/

Key Findings (2015-2018)
The trend shows that the pay differential between the public and private sector is steadily declining in the period 2015 to 2018.

The scale of the pay differential in the public sector was higher for females than for males with the difference in pay differential between females and males in the public sector ranging from 12.9% to 17.3%.

When comparing the public and private sector over the period 2015-2018, the pay differential for male employees in the public sector ranged from a premium of 1.0% to a discount of -10.8% depending on the specification used.

(Note: PS men earn from 1% more, to 10.8% less than private sector equivalents)

The corresponding differential for females showed that female workers in the public sector had a differential ranging from 3.3% to 15.8% depending on the model applied when compared to their counterparts in the private sector.

kippy

addaword wrote: »

Interestingly, when you google it, the number pf sick days taken by Ireland's public servants is almost twice that taken by workers in the private sector according to new figures. Public servants average 8.5 sick days each year compared to 4.5 days in the private sector according to figures released by the Department of Public Expenditure.

Look,
there is an issue with sick pay in the public sector - some genuinely take the piss and this really skews the figures, that has been tightened up on however in the past decade, but still not enough probably.

But then there are genuinely jobs in the public sector where you are more likely to get sick or where if you are sick you HAVE to stay out of work. In these current times you can surely appreciate that.

kippy

Geuze wrote: »

As PS pay for most staff has not recovered to the 2008 levels, you suggestion is utterly unrealistic.



You will be happy to hear that the premium that the PS used to earn over the private sector has been reduced, thanks to the paycuts and slow pay restoration.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/mainresults/

Key Findings (2015-2018)
The trend shows that the pay differential between the public and private sector is steadily declining in the period 2015 to 2018.

The scale of the pay differential in the public sector was higher for females than for males with the difference in pay differential between females and males in the public sector ranging from 12.9% to 17.3%.

When comparing the public and private sector over the period 2015-2018, the pay differential for male employees in the public sector ranged from a premium of 1.0% to a discount of -10.8% depending on the specification used.

(Note: PS men earn from 1% more, to 10.8% less than private sector equivalents)

The corresponding differential for females showed that female workers in the public sector had a differential ranging from 3.3% to 15.8% depending on the model applied when compared to their counterparts in the private sector.

No Geuze, it is totally realistic.
There's absolutely no negatives at all for the country in cutting all public sector wages by 25%. It will hardly be noticed........

noodler

kippy wrote: »

I agree,
time to slash 25% off the public sector pay and pensions bill in whatever way possible. It's the only way.

Oh, just because I objectively note an increase in my salary when it happens doesn't mean I am advocating widespread cuts.

All I've said is that at a minimum the 2% on October is surely gone.

Please God we can survive with one big borrow this year and no adjustments are needed next year but the signs of a quick recovery aren't great.

So a complete solo run by John Moran then?

purifol0

kippy wrote: »

Look,
there is an issue with sick pay in the public sector - some genuinely take the piss and this really skews the figures, that has been tightened up on however in the past decade, but still not enough probably.

But then there are genuinely jobs in the public sector where you are more likely to get sick or where if you are sick you HAVE to stay out of work. In these current times you can surely appreciate that.

I'll think you'll find the main reason for so much sick leave in the public sector is the fact there is the fact you get sick pay itself (also zero consequences of abusing it). Another luxury most private sector employees dont have.

addaword

Geuze wrote: »

You will be happy to hear that the premium that the PS used to earn over the private sector has been reduced,

But not enough. According to the Irish Times report, it found that average public-sector wages in Ireland amounted to €47,400 compared with €33,900 in the private sector. That was well before Covid 19. In the past few months, many people from the private sector are on €350 per week.

purifol0

purifol0 wrote: »

Wow. Meanwhile the state pension age for the private sector worker is 67!



Fair?

Correct. We don't get that either.

You can retire early based on your private pension scheme.

n97 mini

Geuze wrote: »

The trend shows that the pay differential between the public and private sector is steadily declining in the period 2015 to 2018.

The tech industry effect? Google/Facebook etc. Those lads are paid savage money.

nthclare

I work in the public sector myself,and would happily go down to a three day week.
I work with tree's arboretums, forestry and sometimes crop production ie growing shrub's, bedding plants etc...

If I was on a three day week I could make hay while the sun shines, my son's finished education now and grow up. So I can pursue other project's and I've plenty of interests that would need more time to pursue a more balanced lifestyle.

Where there's a will there's a way, bring it on I say.

addaword

addaword wrote: »

But not enough. According to the Irish Times report, it found that average public-sector wages in Ireland amounted to €47,400 compared with €33,900 in the private sector. That was well before Covid 19. In the past few months, many people from the private sector are on €350 per week.

Did the same survey also tell you the average pay PER HOUR? Wonder how it would look then when you factor in all those people that only work part-time. Even full time isn't 40 hours across the private sector. Lidl and Aldi staff are only rostered for a maximum 30 hours as an example.

Lot less public sector workers with no or little formal education either.

purifol0

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Correct. We don't get that either.

You can retire early based on your private pension scheme.

What pension scheme would that be. 72% of private sector workers dont have one.



Now riddle me this - why are private sector workers pension defined contribution whilst pubSec workers get Defined Benefit? Also why is it they pay only a fraction towards this?


Or that the law was changed so Priv Sec workers now have a higher retirement age than they do?

sabat

sabat wrote: »

How about putting it to the unions that they can have a pay cut or keep the current rates and sack the worst 5% of unverified sick leave takers.

So sack people based on sick records? Illegal in all professions

n97 mini

addaword wrote: »

But not enough. According to the Irish Times report, it found that average public-sector wages in Ireland amounted to €47,400 compared with €33,900 in the private sector. That was well before Covid 19. In the past few months, many people from the private sector are on €350 per week.

There are hundreds of thousands in the private sector on minimum wage. That brings the overall average down. It's not reflective of what equivalent grades are paid, and generally speaking private sector workers will be paid more when it comes to skilled work. They'll also probably work harder (e.g. MRI machines in public hospitals need to have a union-mandated 3 staff, whereas in private hospitals they just go with a manufacturer-mandated 2 staff), and won't get nearly the same pension deal.

purifol0

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Did the same survey also tell you the average pay PER HOUR? Wonder how it would look then when you factor in all those people that only work part-time. Even full time isn't 40 hours across the private sector. Lidl and Aldi staff are only rostered for a maximum 30 hours as an example.

Lot less public sector workers with no or little formal education either.

You mean part time workers like public sector Teachers & Lecturers?

bobbysands81

addaword wrote: »

Of course there will be pay cuts, the country is living way beyond its means and is spending much more than it is taking in. It is unsustainable.

30% of companies reported no reduction in their turnover as a result of COVID-19, there’s plenty of money going around.

Absolutely no change our PS should take a pay cut.

thomasdylan

kippy wrote: »

Look,
there is an issue with sick pay in the public sector - some genuinely take the piss and this really skews the figures, that has been tightened up on however in the past decade, but still not enough probably.

But then there are genuinely jobs in the public sector where you are more likely to get sick or where if you are sick you HAVE to stay out of work. In these current times you can surely appreciate that.

I think this is partly true. HCAs and nurses are going to be more likely to get sick. But there's huge areas of the PS where there's excessive sick leave. Doctors are always the PS worker with lowest sick leave (usually less than 1%) while working the longest hours. Teachers have 7 times as many sick days as doctors despite working a lot less days.

purifol0

purifol0 wrote: »

What pension scheme would that be. 72% of private sector workers dont have one.



Now riddle me this - why are private sector workers pension defined contribution whilst pubSec workers get Defined Benefit? Also why is it they pay only a fraction towards this?


Or that the law was changed so Priv Sec workers now have a higher retirement age than they do?

A, thats entirely their own fault now isn't it?

B, private sector pensions can be defined benefit. You have choices in the private sector. It might cost more but that's a benefit we have. I don't get a Christmas bonus, plenty in private sector do. I don't get a reduced interest rate on my mortgage, plenty of bank staff do. I don't get a company car or travel. I don't get reduced cost flights like aer lingusb or reduced ferry like Irish ferries. There's a long list of what each organisation gives and what each careers benefits are. None of that means I or you should be dragged down or lose a benefit. It's not a race to the bottom.

C, in pay 7% to my pension. It's about the same as I paid in the private and that was based on a 2/3 pension. My current pension is 1/2. The difference is I would have paid into the private for 42 years compared to 30 now. I knew that going into my career.

D, you get 10,000 a year from the state pension. We don't. Factor that in.

kippy

purifol0 wrote: »

I'll think you'll find the main reason for so much sick leave in the public sector is the fact there is the fact you get sick pay itself (also zero consequences of abusing it). Another luxury most private sector employees dont have.

I think you'll find that is a part of it but not the only reason for it.
Would you expect nurses, doctors, teachers to go to work sick?
The sick pay terms have changed a lot in the past number of years in the public sector as I've stated and sick pay in the private sector is common enough in certain sectors.

purifol0

bobbysands81 wrote: »

30% of companies reported no reduction in their turnover as a result of COVID-19, there’s plenty of money going around.

Absolutely no change our PS should take a pay cut.

So what? Tax take is all that matters. If there isnt any, then why should Ireland Inc is broke why do think you should continue to get paid as if it wasn't? Exchequer is likely to be 30billion down on last year, with even more added to the national debt.



And if the govt decides to borrow even more - why should those working in the private sector have their standard of living absolutely destroyed just so you can keep your pay and pension higher than theirs?

bobbysands81

addaword wrote: »

Interestingly, when you google it, the number of sick days taken by Ireland's public servants is almost twice that taken by workers in the private sector according to new figures. Public servants average 8.5 sick days each year compared to 4.5 days in the private sector according to figures released by the Department of Public Expenditure.

Every single sick day that a public servant takes is recorded and used for reporting purposes. It’s naive to think that private sector companies report sick days in the same accurate way. In any private sector job I had my sick days were never reported to DPER so that they could make a comparison against public servants.

kippy

Yeah, I can see the exact same signals in this thread as many of the threads from 09-12. I think I'll unfollow and let ye have at it.

purifol0

purifol0 wrote: »

So what? Tax take is all that matters. If there isnt any, then why should Ireland Inc is broke why do think you should continue to get paid as if it wasn't? Exchequer is likely to be 30billion down on last year, with even more added to the national debt.



And if the govt decides to borrow even more - why should those working in the private sector have their standard of living absolutely destroyed just so you can keep your pay and pension higher than theirs?

Why should we have our standards reduced because your company closed? Why should I pay tax for your covid19 payment? Why do I pay prsi when I won't be on the dole?

Your either in favor of social welfare or your not. You can't just be in favour of what benefits you.

bobbysands81

purifol0 wrote: »

So what? Tax take is all that matters. If there isnt any, then why should Ireland Inc is broke why do think you should continue to get paid as if it wasn't? Exchequer is likely to be 30billion down on last year, with even more added to the national debt.
And if the govt decides to borrow even more - why should those working in the private sector have their standard of living absolutely destroyed just so you can keep your pay and pension higher than theirs?

Increase taxes for those that can afford it, get the Apple money, reduce non-essential public services, politicians are getting out of hand with the roles that some Govt Depts are carrying out, there’s huge amounts of non-essential work being carried out by Depts.

We’ll bounce back quite quickly. The well isn’t dry, there’s plenty of money out there, there’s plenty of tax reform required.

And as for your last paragraph... it’s okay for my family to take a hit in standard of living but not yours? Nimbyism at its finest.

smelly sock

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just waiting till independent news and media get stuck into the public service. They love giving the PS a good kicking.

INM and Fionan Sheehan specifically are the defintion of gutter journalism.

daithi7

Geuze wrote: »

As PS pay for most staff has not recovered to the 2008 levels, you suggestion is utterly unrealistic.....

But 2008 was loony tunes economics, bananas ps pay levels paid with totally unsustainable tax receipts based on massively over inflated one off taxes on hugely artificially elevated property values....

So forget about 2008, stop talking about restoration to anything from then, cos it was mad then, so you're merely pining after further insanity.... the difference being everyone knows that this time round!!

Public sector pay & pensions are simply too high in Ireland. Further our ps efficiency, flexibility & agility are far too low. That's why we do things like paying per capita in the top decile in the OECD for healthcare while we get outcomes in the lowest decile.

I.e. We pay the most for health care in the developed world, but we get the worst results...., and we manage to do this with a very young demographic.... truly pathetic!!!

Also our capital spend / public sector wages is far too low, this is why we end up with things like the lowest icu beds per 100k people in the EU going into a global pandemic....

Overly generous PS pay & pensions & poor productivity costs Ireland hugely. It has continuously prevented us from being able to even slightly reform the health service in the past, and will cost us even more significantly as our working population ages & the pension iceberg comes closer to sinking the whole ship!!

Ireland needs to reform its public sector big time. The IMF flagged this nearly a decade ago now when they left Ireland last. At this rate, we might see them again sooner than we should...