Public service pay cut?

daithi7

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If you think Rupert Murdoch or any of his rags give a damn about what is good for Irish society, you have another think coming.

He has an agenda to push. "Whatever will make me richer."

The only 'think' I know is that you've attacked the source of the article (Sunday Times editorial comment) rather than address the issues.

It makes me wonder , why so defensive? And with such glaring evidence against the wisdom, or fairness of a public pay rise currently, surely only a public sector worker, or a moron, or both would actually try to defend it!?

P.s. I thought the point about public sector pay being restored before taxes have been restored to normal levels particularly apt. i.e. We are all continuing to be taxed too much to pay for highly overinflated public sector pay and pensions. Simples!!

FluffPiece

My gross pay per week is €500. I take home about €450 after tax. I don't earn enough to pay more funnily enough and I while I will get a pension at the end, it's not the golden plated one that everyone thinks exists.

If I was to receive a 20% wage cut, I would earn €400 gross.

The PUP is €350 and it involves asking people to stay at home. I've been in work every week without fail for my wage since this has all kicked off as I am deemed to be essential. Where can I sign up to this pay cut??

addaword

FluffPiece wrote: »

My gross pay per week is €500.

There are public servants whose gross pay is over 4000 perweek. There are middle aged healthy and fit public servants who got a 300,000 tax free lump sum on retirement AND who get an annual 6 figure public service pension..

costacorta

addaword wrote: »

There are public servants whose gross pay is over 4000 perweek. There are middle aged healthy and fit public servants who got a 300,000 tax free lump sum on retirement AND who get an annual 6 figure public service pension..

Yes and there are middle aged private sector workers who also got big lump sum pay offs and big pensions so what’s your point ??

addaword

costacorta wrote: »

Yes and there are middle aged private sector workers who also got big lump sum pay offs and big pensions so what’s your point ??

It was in reply to someone whining he / she only gets 450 per week. While most people I think agree that average public sector pay will be cut, I do not think it fair to cut those on 450 a week, given the state is already paying students who worked one or two Saturdays in the past 350 a week for doing nothing. Those at the top should be cut the most.

Average garda pay is 60,000 per year. They retire with a tax free lump sum of about 100,000 and a juicy pension after only 30 years, a pension far exceeded the posters 450 per week.

SouthWesterly

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Don’t go to mad with that 9 Euro. I might buy an extra coffee a week. Feel like a rebel

That's 9€ before tax, Prsi, usc pension and ASC deductions.
Might get half a cup of coffee

onrail

Ineresting one job advertisement in Environmental Science/Engineering.

As a direct comparison, €71k for 7-10 years experience in that field is at least 15-20% higher than an equivalent role in the private sector. Even more, if you factor in that the job is based on Wexford. That's before you factor in pension, annual leave and job security.

I can only imagine that the competition for the role will be incredible.

HartsHat

onrail wrote: »

Ineresting one job advertisement in Environmental Science/Engineering.

As a direct comparison, €71k for 7-10 years experience in that field is at least 15-20% higher than an equivalent role in the private sector. Even more, if you factor in that the job is based on Wexford. That's before you factor in pension, annual leave and job security.

I can only imagine that the competition for the role will be incredible.

So it will presumably be much harder to get than the private sector equivalent and the successful candidate will therefore be...

onrail

HartsHat wrote: »

So it will presumably be much harder to get than the private sector equivalent and the successful candidate will therefore be...

Better connected

Poor_old_gill

HartsHat wrote: »

So it will presumably be much harder to get than the private sector equivalent and the successful candidate will therefore be...

It’s the same argument I usually make- if it’s that cushy & that well paid then are you not an idiot to not be working there?

I work with a semi state & have no family connections, etc - just good qualifications

FluffPiece

addaword wrote: »

It was in reply to someone whining he / she only gets 450 per week. While most people I think agree that average public sector pay will be cut, I do not think it fair to cut those on 450 a week, given the state is already paying students who worked one or two Saturdays in the past 350 a week for doing nothing. Those at the top should be cut the most.

Average garda pay is 60,000 per year. They retire with a tax free lump sum of about 100,000 and a juicy pension after only 30 years, a pension far exceeded the posters 450 per week.

I was pointing out that my pay is in fact half of the "average public sector pay" that keeps being brought up time and again. That's a clerical officer's pay, which a lot of people are earning in and around on.

Would it be ok if I lump Jeff Bezo's income with that of a worker in Dunne's and claim they are both overpaid?

If people want to argue about cutting top levels of pay then fine, work away, but ffs will you at least stop this average pay crap across the public sector as a whole.

As for a Garda earning so much and retiring early, have you seen the absolute ****e they have to put up with also. Have you seen the recent Ballymun garda station video as an example of the crap they deal with day in and day out? I wouldn't do it for twice the money.

I also find it funny that in order to pay for the whole PUP, it's the public sector being crucified on this thread despite the vast majority of them working during the whole pandemic.

Librarians etc were redeployed to the likes of community service helplines, a lot of the staff working from home just like those in the private sector. There were some who were not working granted just the same as the private sector, but of those a good few were those at risk and not equipped to work from home for various reasons or job spec meant they could not. All outdoor staff were brought back as soon as it was safe to do so.

Will everyone have to pay for this mess? Yes, we all will. Will PS pay get a cut? I expect it may be on the cards, perhaps more likely in the way of increment freezes or recruitment embargos rather than a 20% pay cut. I think if a pya deduction was to happen, you'll be looking at a vastly smaller cut in the low single digits and even that will be political suicide considering the pay of hospital staff given the current situation.

Time will I tell I guess.

onrail

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

It’s the same argument I usually make- if it’s that cushy & that well paid then are you not an idiot to not be working there

An idiot not to rewind my career back about 7 years to adjust the trajectory towards the skills/experience that the public sector and semi-states are looking for.

I work in a design office of approximately 300 construction professionals. Of those 300, I’m confident that at least 275 would jump to the public sector or semi state if they could.

At a quick pass (Open to correction), there are currently around 5-10 suitable positions advertised in the country.

For myself (incredibly niche), maybe 1-2 suitable positions crop up every couple of years.

mehico

addaword wrote: »

There are public servants whose gross pay is over 4000 perweek. There are middle aged healthy and fit public servants who got a 300,000 tax free lump sum on retirement AND who get an annual 6 figure public service pension..

How many public servants are being paid this much out of interest and what are their roles?

I would be very surprised if there is even 1% of PS on this scale of salary.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

The thing with public service pay is that those on low incomes shouldn’t be cut. While those on higher incomes are paying 52% tax which goes back to the employer.

So really lots of times it’s just optics.

Take a 2,000 pay cut
State that’s 1040 euro
Employee gets 960.
Employee pays 23% VAT on say 600 worth of goods
So another 138 goes back to employer
Say other 360 goes on services at 13% tax, so another 48 euro.

Out of 2,000. The state are taking back 1,226 anyway. But the 2,000 is supporting business and jobs. So really the state would achieve nothing by pay cuts

All of that 2000 has to come from the taxes of those in the private sector. So yes you are achieving something.

Poor_old_gill

onrail wrote: »

An idiot not to rewind my career back about 7 years to adjust the trajectory towards the skills/experience that the public sector and semi-states are looking for.

I work in a design office of approximately 300 construction professionals. Of those 300, I’m confident that at least 275 would jump to the public sector or semi state if they could.

At a quick pass (Open to correction), there are currently around 5-10 suitable positions advertised in the country.

For myself (incredibly niche), maybe 1-2 suitable positions crop up every couple of years.

There are jobs that become available tho- ESBI would be one for design professionals.

I worked private too for a while so I know that the opportunities don’t come around every day of the week but what I was getting at is that there is an almost constant whinge about public sector/semi state wages but the bar to get in, from my experience, is quite high.

It is usually a meritocracy, from my experience, so in a lot of instances the higher wages can be justified

runawaybishop

mehico wrote: »

How many public servants are being paid this much out of interest and what are their roles?

I would be very surprised if there is even 1% of PS on this scale of salary.

Thats secretary general wages, i.e the heads of entire departments. No-where near 1% on that even! Hes talking out of his hoop.

onrail

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

There are jobs that become available tho- ESBI would be one for design professionals.

It is usually a meritocracy, from my experience, so in a lot of instances the higher wages can be justified

Yeah you’re not far off the mark there to be fair. There are still some really exceptional professionals I know who can’t get a look in.

Poor_old_gill

onrail wrote: »

Yeah you’re not far off the mark there to be fair. There are still some really exceptional professionals I know who can’t get a look in.

I do keep on saying ‘from my experience’ as the hiring policies that people seem to be annoyed about are ones of yesteryear.

The increments are gone, gold plated pensions are gone, most people start now on a temp contract & also on a branded pay system which caps their increases unless they get a promotion.

Essentially there is a huge divide within the public sector semi states whereby the oul lads & lassies are paid funny money

fliball123

noodler wrote: »

PS cuts would bring in something like 400m/500m gross per year but obviously you only actually save about 50/60% of that with tax/USC/prsi etc.

It would only be a small part of adjustments needed.

It's fine if we think a 15-20bn deficit will be a one off this year with natural growth etc bring us to something smaller in 2021.

But you look at the unemployment payments, lost tax, major spending commitment on PPE/Testing and you wonder how much of this will really persist into 2021.

It might be 2022 before we can balance the books again.

you save a lot more than that with the knock on effect of the increment scale and the guaranteed pensions a small cut now saves the country lots in the long term

fliball123

tayto lover wrote: »

Cut people’s wages and you will help shrink the economy and cause job loses.
Give them a rise and they will spend which will help drive the economy and sustain employment.

So lets just get more out of taxes as that wont have a worse effect we cant keep the current spending up with the amount of people who are going to be umemployed the figures dont match there will have to be cuts to ps pay and pensions and welfare

fliball123

Birneybau wrote: »

Why is it always public v private sector? Because it's just another form of divide and conquer. Jesus, why not tax corporations/the rich more?

But no, it's the little guys that always get it in the neck.

This modern hyper-capitalism has normal people at each throats while the mega rich pay f' all tax and get away with it. They are simply sucking up what there is and leaving us scrabbling.

Can you not see that?!?

Its like this as people in the private sector and those in the middle get the sh1t kicked out of them every time there is a recession the PS have the unions who act like the gestapo with threats to strike. you only have to look at how the last recession went for both sectors. The PS were cushioned and the private sector was decimated and the fear is that this will happen again you only have to look at Debanhams, Bewleys on Grafton street and a few other big companies/businesses that have already hit the wall and while their employees will get the 350 covid payment this cant continue for ever in the current deficit we have with regard to income and expenditure. So the PS will have to take there share of the pain this time and for every nurse out there there is a teacher doing maybe 5/10 hours work a week during this getting full pay not to menion going into the summer where the do zero work for full pay but sure lets give all you a payrise this doesnt make any sense.

Welfare needs to be cut
PS pay needs to be cut
PS pensions need to be covered by ps employees

After this and only after this should there be tax increases

fliball123

Dylan94 wrote: »

I don't think that there will be public sector pay cuts, for many the previous pay cuts still haven't been undone. Particularly for those who started after 2012.

I think that public sector workers will be more likely to strike this time around, as they won't believe the government when they promise that its only temporary and will be restored. There were already strikes on the way from teachers as a result of the last of progress for those on the newer pay scales.

bullsh1t we are paying more in 2020 than we ever were back in 2012 a lot of the cuts were restored and with the incremental system we are paying more now then we ever did

fliball123

saabsaab wrote: »

There will be no pay cuts. Too unpopular and would damage any new government from day one.

Well as soon as they start attacking taxes you will find that there will be an appetite , when we have 20 to 25% unemployment and we simply cant afford the pay levels you will find that it will have to be done

fliball123

n97 mini wrote: »

The tech industry effect? Google/Facebook etc. Those lads are paid savage money.

Neither google or facebook were 200billion in debt and trying to borrow another 30billion to cover the costs of their employees

fliball123

bobbysands81 wrote: »

30% of companies reported no reduction in their turnover as a result of COVID-19, there’s plenty of money going around.

Absolutely no change our PS should take a pay cut.

So we are not borrowing an additional 30billlion and now over 25% unemployment .. you my friend are like an Ostridge with its head in the sand

fliball123

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

A, thats entirely their own fault now isn't it?

B, private sector pensions can be defined benefit. You have choices in the private sector. It might cost more but that's a benefit we have. I don't get a Christmas bonus, plenty in private sector do. I don't get a reduced interest rate on my mortgage, plenty of bank staff do. I don't get a company car or travel. I don't get reduced cost flights like aer lingusb or reduced ferry like Irish ferries. There's a long list of what each organisation gives and what each careers benefits are. None of that means I or you should be dragged down or lose a benefit. It's not a race to the bottom.

C, in pay 7% to my pension. It's about the same as I paid in the private and that was based on a 2/3 pension. My current pension is 1/2. The difference is I would have paid into the private for 42 years compared to 30 now. I knew that going into my career.

D, you get 10,000 a year from the state pension. We don't. Factor that in.

and with all your A, B, C and D your pension levy and any other fact bears that the public sector come no way near covering the full cost of their pension and expect the private sector to fund it via taxation which is very unfair when a high % of the private sector cannot afford a pension of their own..Now go factor that in and while your doing it cover the full costs of your own pension please

fliball123

khalessi wrote: »

I cant understand this no one made you choose your job. I presume you chose it because you had an interest or passion for it. You also have the choice to change at anytime.

Your funny you think we in the private sector chose the extortionate conditions that the public sector employees have, you think we choose to contribute to pay your pensions when a high % of us cant afford your own. Its delusional to think that we can tax people further country the spend has to come down this time

fliball123

hardybuck wrote: »

Comparisons are a waste of time when you're not comparing like for like.

Yet Bertie managed twice during benchmarking which appears to only work if the figures show an upward swing in ps pay

fliball123

TheValeyard wrote: »

Yeah, a Garda trying to chase down and arrest criminals in his 60s would hardly be ideal now.

Plenty of phucking desk work they could be doing this has to be outsourced in a lot of areas, garda hitting the 50s should have a young buck at his/her side to do the leg work and its hardly like years ago when the gards where walking a beat they are in cars more times than not and at 60 put at a desk to do the paper work. This isnt rocket science they should not be allowed retire after 30 years with a pension worth 1.8 million that's a crime in itself

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

whats stopping private sector workers joining a pension scheme?

whats stopping private sector workers getting defined benefit?

sounds like you need to go complain to the private sector rather than crying in here.

what do you know about what a public worker contributes to their pension, or what the average lifetime contribution vs the average total payput is?

nothing.

what law on retirement age applies to private but not public workers?

go on?

whats stopping us is affordability we cant afford to fund it mainly due to the insane high rate of taxation on employment in the country and of course we have to pay this to keep our public sector counterparts pensions going.