Public service pay cut?

trashcan

fliball123 wrote: »

Its not hatred its fact. If we hit a great depression which is being predicted globally how are the public sector expecting to get pay rises? Why should I get a better job why cant I just pay less tax than what I am being made pay

Pay rises ? Who is expecting pay rises ? I thought this thread was about pay cuts. Also, on the pension point, I never see it mentioned that private sector workers will (mostly) be entitled to a State contributory pension, provided they have enough contributions. Public sector employees don't get this, that should also be factored in when talking about Public Sector pensions.

august12

fliball123 wrote: »

Point is I dont want to pay towards someone else's pension when I cant afford my own. Is that ok with you?

And who do you think is paying for the over 65s contributory and non contributory pension, do you also resent those people getting a pension?

fliball123

august12 wrote: »

I am referring to the state contributory pension, please read my post,

Have you a break down of a persons private pension I have not got one so I couldn't talk about the ins and outs of it but from what I understand there are tax breaks but that the majority of the pension is paid for by the employee and the employer now you tell me one private sector company soon to be 230 billion in debt and paying anything towards there employees pension?

fliball123

august12 wrote: »

And who do you think is paying for the over 65s contributory and non contributory pension, do you also resent those people getting a pension?

I dont resent anyone getting a pension providing that the taxpayer is not on the hook for covering their pension. We have a current liability of 114billion for public sector pensions and that is growing year on year

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/public-sector-pension-costs-forecast-to-more-than-double-by-2040-1.3570648#:~:text=An%20analysis%20by%20the%20Department,%E2%82%AC1.6%20billion%20per%20year.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

I dont resent anyone getting a pension providing that the taxpayer is not on the hook for covering their pension. We have a current liability of 114billion for public sector pensions and that is growing year on year

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/public-sector-pension-costs-forecast-to-more-than-double-by-2040-1.3570648#:~:text=An%20analysis%20by%20the%20Department,%E2%82%AC1.6%20billion%20per%20year.

The State is an employer.

The employer covers some of the costs of its staff pensions.

Those are simple statements of facts.


Now, the following statements you can debate:

(1) should the PS pension be a DB or a DC pension?

(2) should the PS pension be funded or unfunded?

(3) how should the cost of the pension be shared between employer and worker?

Geuze

trashcan wrote: »

Also, on the pension point, I never see it mentioned that private sector workers will (mostly) be entitled to a State contributory pension, provided they have enough contributions. Public sector employees don't get this, that should also be factored in when talking about Public Sector pensions.

Just be careful there.

Since April 1995, PS pay full-rate PRSI, and will get the contrib SP.

But yes, it is integrated with the work pension, and the two combined are designed to provide 50% of final salary.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

now you tell me one private sector company soon to be 230 billion in debt and paying anything towards there employees pension?

Plenty of firms continue to make staff pension conts while making losses.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

Plenty of firms continue to make staff pension conts while making losses.

Can you show me one who will be 230billion in debt and borrowing billions a month to pay the bills?

noodler

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If you think Rupert Murdoch or any of his rags give a damn about what is good for Irish society, you have another think coming.

He has an agenda to push. "Whatever will make me richer."

Ok, thread has reached a new low.

What have IFAC got to do with Rupert Murdoch?

noodler

Geuze wrote: »

Just be careful there.

Since April 1995, PS pay full-rate PRSI, and will get the contrib SP.

But yes, it is integrated with the work pension, and the two combined are designed to provide 50% of final salary.

They don't really get it tbh.

As a CO for example.

40 years service, assume old scheme based on final salary, you finish with say 21k.

Bit your 12k State Pension is in this so all those public sector pension contributions only got you an extra 9k a year.

pillphil

noodler wrote: »

They don't really get it tbh.

As a CO for example.

40 years service, assume old scheme based on final salary, you finish with say 21k.

Bit your 12k State Pension is in this so all those public sector pension contributions only got you an extra 9k a year.

Not sure of the exact maths, but I think you'd need a pension pot of around 2-300K to get that 9k pension

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Can you show me one who will be 230billion in debt and borrowing billions a month to pay the bills?

Some other countries have bigger public debts, and continue to fund PS pensions.

We do have a large public debt, yes, and the large deficit can't continue, I agree.

Geuze

noodler wrote: »

They don't really get it tbh.

As a CO for example.

40 years service, assume old scheme based on final salary, you finish with say 21k.

Bit your 12k State Pension is in this so all those public sector pension contributions only got you an extra 9k a year.

Yes, I know what you mean.

But a PS hired since April will actually collect the actual cash SPC from the DEASP.

Yes, their work pension is reduced by the SPC, yes the two pensions are integrated.

They will not get SPC and 50% of final salary work pension.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

Some other countries have bigger public debts, and continue to fund PS pensions.

We do have a large public debt, yes, and the large deficit can't continue, I agree.

Yeah all the PIIGS countries from the last bust have and how are all of their economies??

DM1983

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I get a contribution from my company of approx €200 per month. I put €1500 per month into my pension. I don't regard this as "tax". Why dont public sector workers get their unions to make it optional to take part in the defined benefit pension? Then of course the pension contribution would be optional.

This would actually be a great initiative. Many PS workers completely undervalue their pensions. Headline salaries appear low and unions succeed in arguing for pay increases on the back of that. If pension contributions were optional, many PS wouldn't contribute, at least not to the same extent. It would save the state a fortune.

Paulzx

fliball123 wrote: »

Ask my hoop.

I stopped there.........

DM1983

blanch152 wrote: »

This has been answered many times in this thread already.

None of these rebuttals make sense. Yes, of course many private sector companies make a contribution - matched up to 5% is better than average I imagine.

And then the rubbish about individual versus collective scheme? Nonsense. 1.8 million is what it would cost in the private sector to buy the average garda pension. That's 30 grand a year on top of salary, assuming an increase in value of 100% to the pension pot.

Gardai have a tough job but that's lunacy.

addaword

DM1983 wrote: »

None of these rebuttals make sense. Yes, of course many private sector companies make a contribution - matched up to 5% is better than average I imagine.

And then the rubbish about individual versus collective scheme? Nonsense. 1.8 million is what it would cost in the private sector to buy the average garda pension. That's 30 grand a year on top of salary, assuming an increase in value of 100% to the pension pot.

Gardai have a tough job but that's lunacy.

The majority of people who work in the private sector do so in SMEs. They cannot afford defined benefit pension schemes.

purifol0

purifol0 wrote: »

This is just fantasy. A gardas worth is not based on market realities but by arbitrary and indeed incredibly generous payscales overtime and allowances of which there are an incredible amount. Since It is illegal to form a private sector organisation with the same powers we can't directly compare their pay with a normal company. So how can we see if they are over or underpaid? Simple, you look at how many people apply to join the Gardai and how many leave. Turns out about 5000 people apply every year for approx 100 hundred positions. Therefore we could easily cut the pay and still have more than enough applicants since no one leaves (apart from the odd whistleblower).

Also the again UTTER FANTASY that gardai are in any way overworked can be seen by their massive waistlines

"Gardai spend €109k on trousers with waist sizes of 40 inches and above in past five years"

https://www.thesun.ie/news/3770524/garda-spending-trousers-waists-over-40-inches/

no, that's not the only way to view a certain sector. You view them by their worth to society, the difficulty of the job, the physical and mental stain of the job, the training required. Then you have an idea.

The fact that there's not applicants than positions means in theory, the best get selected. That's a good thing, not a reason to dilute conditions and therefore possible applications. Do you want the best or the dregs?

Concerning conditions of pay, etc. Based on what are they overly generous? Their overtime is standard 1.5 normal, double on holidays. There's people in the private sector getting triple time when the company can't get people to work.

What allowances are crazy?

I will ignore the stupidity of the insult. Anyone with genuine cognitive ability can understand why they need trousers for expanding waistlines when you have females in uniform.

addaword

addaword wrote: »

The majority of people who work in the private sector do so in SMEs. They cannot afford defined benefit pension schemes.

Why not and again, why is that the public sector fault? Most public sector workers can't afford sports cars and large mansions. Does that mean no one should be allowed have them in the private sector?

DM1983

DM1983 wrote: »

This would actually be a great initiative. Many PS workers completely undervalue their pensions. Headline salaries appear low and unions succeed in arguing for pay increases on the back of that. If pension contributions were optional, many PS wouldn't contribute, at least not to the same extent. It would save the state a fortune.

Except the public sector pension includes the state pension now so the saving isn't as big as claimed.

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

I am very happy with my choice but the facts are the facts if personal taxation levels go up with out any attempt to cut costs in this country I will not be hanging about long and the other fact to bear is that Working from home has been the huge success story of this pandemic so I can effectively work from here in Ireland or I can phuck off with my taxes to Sunny Florida, Gold coast or maybe some where in the Canaras, where my taxes on work will not be anywhere near as much as I what I pay here and where I get a lot more for my taxes.

If you are being paid in Ireland then you would still pay Irish tax on that income. You would than need to pay state tax in Florida.

blanch152

DM1983 wrote: »

None of these rebuttals make sense. Yes, of course many private sector companies make a contribution - matched up to 5% is better than average I imagine.

And then the rubbish about individual versus collective scheme? Nonsense. 1.8 million is what it would cost in the private sector to buy the average garda pension. That's 30 grand a year on top of salary, assuming an increase in value of 100% to the pension pot.

Gardai have a tough job but that's lunacy.

€1.8 million is what is costs to buy an individualised pension with all of the attendant cuts taken by pension sellers, insurance companies, actuaries etc as well as the individual risk built in. It is not the same as what it costs a collective pension scheme to provide that pension.

fliball123

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

If you are being paid in Ireland then you would still pay Irish tax on that income. You would than need to pay state tax in Florida.

Look at that again you dont pay taxes in both countries I have been scouting this out already I would be paying a lot less taxes in Florida than I do in Ireland. I would be emigrating

blanch152

fliball123 wrote: »

I am very happy with my choice but the facts are the facts if personal taxation levels go up with out any attempt to cut costs in this country I will not be hanging about long and the other fact to bear is that Working from home has been the huge success story of this pandemic so I can effectively work from here in Ireland or I can phuck off with my taxes to Sunny Florida, Gold coast or maybe some where in the Canaras, where my taxes on work will not be anywhere near as much as I what I pay here and where I get a lot more for my taxes.

I thought you left Ireland a few years back. Might be mistaking you with another poster.

Chiparus

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

If you are being paid in Ireland then you would still pay Irish tax on that income. You would than need to pay state tax in Florida.

Does that apply to other European countries eg Portugal.
We have seen many people retire to spain and portugal because the tax on their pension is less.

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

Look at that again you dont pay taxes in both countries I have been scouting this out already I would be paying a lot less taxes in Florida than I do in Ireland. I would be emigrating

I don't need to, I lived abroad while earning in Ireland. All Irish income is taxed at source regardless of where you live. Sure you can create loopholes and tax dodges but you wouldn't do that I'm sure.


You won't be taxed on the same income twice of course but Florida has taxes not covered in the double taxation agreement.

I would have assumed you had weighed up the costs of living there compared to here yourself accurately but to be honest, if you didn't even realise how the tax would work, you better look into it further.

Chiparus

Chiparus wrote: »

Does that apply to other European countries eg Portugal.
We have seen many people retire to spain and portugal because the tax on their pension is less.

Yes. I think you misunderstood why they retire abroad, nothing to do with less tax and actually, you would probable pay more tax because their tax credits are a lot lower than ours. The 220 a week state pension is tax free in Ireland but would be taxable in Spain as their tax credit limit is closer to 100 a week. Just as an example, I paid tax on earnings of just 500 a month in Spain. About 10% of the 500. In Ireland that's under the tax limit.

Better standard of living as their money goes further in those countries and in places like southern Spain they are entitled to free health care as eu citizens which means even more savings as the system not only covers more treatment but subsidies medication at a greater rate. It depends on regions though so I can't comment on Madrid, Barcelona, etc as I didn't live there and I qualified as a spouse of a Spanish citizen so my taxes weren't relevant to my cover. I think it's an ex11 form you need when retiring abroad.

Damn nice weather too but a fair few will move home towards the end to be close to family and services. End of life treatment alone and in a language you didn't learn wouldn't be my cup of tea either.

fliball123

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I don't need to, I lived abroad while earning in Ireland. All Irish income is taxed at source regardless of where you live. Sure you can create loopholes and tax dodges but you wouldn't do that I'm sure.


You won't be taxed on the same income twice of course but Florida has taxes not covered in the double taxation agreement.

I would have assumed you had weighed up the costs of living there compared to here yourself accurately but to be honest, if you didn't even realise how the tax would work, you better look into it further.

I have done what I need to do to avoid paying any tax in Ireland

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

I have done what I need to do to avoid paying any tax in Ireland

Well then you have no business commenting on how this country is run.