Public service pay cut?

Poor_old_gill

EndaHonesty wrote: »

So you don't know, today, how much your pension will pay when you retire?

No, I dont know today how much my pension will pay when I retire.

Just to showcase your lack of understanding of pensions - neither do the majority of people on DB pensions.

EndaHonesty

Deleted User wrote: »

You're either willfully ignorant or just a troll. Every single hire in the PS and CS since 2013, over 100k people at this stage,do not have a DB pension.

Every public sector employee who qualifies for a pension, knows exactly today how much they will receive in their pension.

That is Defined Benefit.

Poor_old_gill

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Every public sector employee who qualifies for a pension, knows exactly today how much they will receive in their pension.

That is Defined Benefit.

No they dont, you are a complete & utter bullsh*tter.

Sarn

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

No- they are defined contribution
The key is in the wording - when you look at your PS contract and it says Defined Contribution pension

It is stated in the government booklet on the Single Public Service Pension Scheme that it is a type of defined benefit pension:

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Scheme-Booklet.pdf

EndaHonesty

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

No, I dont know today how much my pension will pay when I retire.

Just to showcase your lack of understanding of pensions - neither do the majority of people on DB pensions.

Your pension is based on your service & earnings, it's not based on contributions.

It is DB.

Poor_old_gill

Sarn wrote: »

It is stated in the government booklet on the Single Public Service Pension Scheme that it is a type of defined benefit pension:

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Scheme-Booklet.pdf

Do you know anyone who works in the PS- ask them to send you a redacted version of their pension agreement as I'm not posting mine up here.

Here is a bit of info on the difference:

https://www.zurich.ie/pensions-retirement/faqs/defined-benefit-versus-defined-contribution/#:~:text=Company%20pensions%20can%20generally%20be,be%20paid%20to%20a%20retiree.&text=A%20defined%20contribution%20pension%20(DC,up%20a%20person's%20pension%20pot.

But I can categorically guarantee you that the majority (if not all) of people who joined after 2012/2013 are on DC pensions and it says so in their contracts.

Poor_old_gill

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Your pension is based on your service & earnings, it's not based on contributions.

It is DB.

It is based on contributions - thats why I get a regular contributions statement.

You are just peddling lies here mate and for no real reason

Sinzo

For the Attention of ADDAWORD


You say that defined benefits pensions are not available to most private sector workers.

That is actually not true. There is a significant DB pension available to all private sector employees - including you – it’s called the State Contributory Pension and it entitles you to ca. €12500 per annum at 67. If you have a spouse who has no income of their own OR only has an income of less than €5200 per annum then your defined pension rises to ca. €24,500 per annum. That's a pretty good deal.

This is especially the case when you don't necessarily have to contribute 30 or 40 years of service. So private sector workers do have a nice DB pension and I would never begrudge you it. Do you think the government should reduce your DB pension?

Until more recent years the private sector did have access to DB pensions. However, in more recent years due to the greed of private sector insurance and pensions businesses as well as the greed of the stock markets DB has been less available to private sector workers. There are still a cadre of private sector workers, the self-employed, big business workers who still take advantage of very generous concessions by the state towards their private pension pots. However, I, unlike you, would not be inclined to generalize about all private sector workers the way you have about public sector workers.

Many private sector workers due to a myriad of reasons do genuinely struggle. For the lowest paid the State will assist with the Working Family Payment or the One Parent Family Payment or Jobseekers Allowance to part time workers or to Self-Employed people whose businesses are struggling. There are subsidies to farmers and to start-up businesses and tax concessions are also available.

And by the way, if you are paying into a private sector pension scheme I'm sure you realize that the government makes sure you get tax relief on it and encourages your employer to subsidise your private pension too.

I believe that this is what a modern democratic republic with a social conscience should do. I also believe that good public services are required for a healthy society. I believe that a decent salary should be paid to attract suitable workers. I also believe that public servants, in general do a good job and are pretty well qualified.

The public sector does have defined pension schemes for most workers. However, there have been major changes in the way that this has been operated over the last decade and more. Now, many civil servants are paying Class A contributions and so their defined pension is only half of what it used to be and the other half, just like your DB State Pension, is also paid to them.

Whether or not 75k or 90k is a huge lump sum is obviously subject to debate. It certainly doesn’t come close to the payments of some in the private sector but such a comparison would render me guilty of your approach. What kind of lump sum will you or colleagues in your organisation have when it comes to their retirement. Are you paying 8% or more of your gross income towards that lump sum and pension?

The final 18 months of my employment, should I still have a job, will be the same flat rate that took me 18 years to rise to and will remain static for the final 18 years, except for any negotiated cost of living increases which, by the way, has been static for the last 12 years until we finally got some restoration in 2019. I wonder how much of a percentage increase you got in the last 12 years? I know you’re going to say you got none because you don’t really want a nuances and truthful conversation on it. I also know you’re going to say that many people lost their jobs and believe me that is a cause of much sadness to me because I know some who have been in that boat. But just because private sector jobs are lost, it doesn’t automatically follow that public sector jobs should be lost too. There is a certain critical mass that must be maintained. Over the last decade there has been a prorate reduction if public servants relative to the increase in population and the economy.

There may be grounds for pay cuts; we were cut badly after the last recession and remained cut for the best part of a decade. We had terms and conditions reduced including a halving of sick pay entitlements, but we accepted them for the common good and, obviously, we had no option but to accept them.

You need to realise that there is a multitude of factors in any particular debate and it’s not always useful or beneficial to generalise too much.

Geuze

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

No- they are defined contribution
The key is in the wording - when you look at your PS contract and it says Defined Contribution pension

Let me be 100% clear.

All PS pensions are Defined Benefit.


The new SPS PS is less generous, yes, but it is still Defined Benefit.


https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/


https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Single-Scheme-Overview-AAG.pdf

EndaHonesty

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

No they dont, you are a complete & utter bullsh*tter.

Your anger and foul language is unwarranted and pathetic. Reported.

Sarn

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

Do you know anyone who works in the PS- ask them to send you a redacted version of their pension agreement as I'm not posting mine up here.

Here is a bit of info on the difference:

https://www.zurich.ie/pensions-retirement/faqs/defined-benefit-versus-defined-contribution/#:~:text=Company%20pensions%20can%20generally%20be,be%20paid%20to%20a%20retiree.&text=A%20defined%20contribution%20pension%20(DC,up%20a%20person's%20pension%20pot.

But I can categorically guarantee you that the majority (if not all) of people who joined after 2012/2013 are on DC pensions and it says so in their contracts.

I work in the PS, but it appears the contracts are in conflict with how the scheme is defined.

Poor_old_gill

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Your anger and foul language is unwarranted and pathetic. Reported.

Report away - your constant trolling & lies are the main issue here.

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

You're either willfully ignorant or just a troll. Every single hire in the PS and CS since 2013, over 100k people at this stage,do not have a DB pension.

This statement is false.

The new SPS PS is defined benefit.

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Single-Scheme-Overview-AAG.pdf

EndaHonesty

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

It is based on contributions - thats why I get a regular contributions statement.

You are just peddling lies here mate and for no real reason

Every PS worker gets a DB pension.

Your anger and insults do not change that simple fact.

Poor_old_gill

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Every PS worker gets a DB pension.

Your anger and insults do not change that simple fact.

My contract says Defines Contribution pension so I presume that makes it a DC pension.

Do you think in a few years if I show up with a print out of this thread and a copy of my contract - that they will pay me out a DB pension cos the lads on here said so?

Geuze

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Standard-Accrual-Member-Booklet.pdf

Read page 5.

The Single Public Service Pension Scheme
(“Single Pension Scheme”) started on 1 January
2013.

If you joined the Public Service for the first time
on or after 1 January 2013 and are working in a
pensionable position, this is generally the Pension
Scheme that applies to you.

Your Scheme is a Public Service Defined Benefit
Pension Scheme. Your contributions are not
invested in the stock market and the Exchequer
supports your employer in paying your benefits
under the Scheme.

Geuze

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

My contract says Defines Contribution pension so I presume that makes it a DC pension.

Do you think in a few years if I show up with a print out of this thread and a copy of my contract - that they will pay me out a DB pension cos the lads on here said so?

If your contract says DC pension, then you must not be a regular public servant.

Poor_old_gill

Geuze wrote: »

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Standard-Accrual-Member-Booklet.pdf

Read page 5.

The Single Public Service Pension Scheme
(“Single Pension Scheme”) started on 1 January
2013.

If you joined the Public Service for the first time
on or after 1 January 2013 and are working in a
pensionable position, this is generally the Pension
Scheme that applies to you.

Your Scheme is a Public Service Defined Benefit
Pension Scheme. Your contributions are not
invested in the stock market and the Exchequer
supports your employer in paying your benefits
under the Scheme.

The contracts state otherwise that's what I signed so you can imagine how & why I would think that's what i am entitled to

EndaHonesty

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

My contract says Defines Contribution pension so I presume that makes it a DC pension.

Do you think in a few years if I show up with a print out of this thread and a copy of my contract - that they will pay me out a DB pension cos the lads on here said so?

You will be paid the benefits you are eligible for, from your DB pension...

Where do you think your contributions are going?..

EndaHonesty

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

The contracts state otherwise that's what I signed so you can imagine how & why I would think that's what i am entitled to

On the contract, who does it say is your employer?

Sinzo

I didn't realize that new entrants to the Public Service are on DC pensions since 2012 - but then, as already pointed out, there are many different permutations in such a large and diverse entity as the "public service".

Geuze

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

The contracts state otherwise that's what I signed so you can imagine how & why I would think that's what i am entitled to

Well then you are not a full, regular public servant.

Is your employer within the Public Service?

EndaHonesty

Sinzo wrote: »

I didn't realize that new entrants to the Public Service are on DC pensions since 2012 - but then, as already pointed out, there are many different permutations in such a large and diverse entity as the "public service".

All public sector workers get a Defined Benefit pension.

fliball123

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

My contract says Defines Contribution pension so I presume that makes it a DC pension.

Do you think in a few years if I show up with a print out of this thread and a copy of my contract - that they will pay me out a DB pension cos the lads on here said so?

I think you misunderstand you do contribute to it but its still DB your not paying the full cost in fact no where near the full cost of your pension

SouthWesterly

addaword wrote: »

My kids are already well paid, in secure and pensionable jobs, when hundreds of thousands of others in the economy have fallen on tough times, through no fault of their own, over the past 3 months. For the greater good, and looking at the medium and long term, they know a pay rise would be be unjustifiable and deeply unfair.

Without hearing directly from your kids, your word is only conjecture and hearsay.
But let's penalise civil servants for something they had no control over.

Now is it the civil servants or just the Gardai?
How would taking 20€ gross off me benefit the rest of the country?
Cost of living is going up. I need to pay the bills as well as educate my kids.

Btw. I was earning a lot more in the private sector 10 years ago than I am now. I might get back to that level in another 8 years.

Sinzo

That's fine, I presume you know what you are talking about. I thought so myself anyways.

Sinzo

addaword wrote: »

You are nearly as bad as barney and kippy, who actually have the audacity to complain about others who they claim do not understand averages! DB pension mean defined benefit pension, which everyone in the public service enjoys but extremely few in the private sector can get or have.

You say that defined benefits pensions are not available to most private sector workers.

That is actually not true. There is a significant DB pension available to all private sector employees - including you – it’s called the State Contributory Pension and it entitles you to ca. €12500 per annum at 67. If you have a spouse who has no income of their own OR only has an income of less than €5200 per annum then your defined pension rises to ca. €24,500 per annum. That's a pretty good deal

This is especially the case when you don't necessarily have to contribute 30 or 40 years of service. So private sector workers do have a nice DB pension and I would never begrudge you it. Do you think the government should reduce your DB pension?

Until more recent years the private sector did have access to DB pensions. However, in more recent years due to the greed of private sector
insurance and pensions businesses as well as the greed of the stock markets DB has been less available to private sector workers. There are still a cadre of private sector workers, the self-employed, big business workers who still take advantage of very generous concessions by the state towards their private pension pots. However, I, unlike you, would not be inclined to generalize about all private sector workers the way you have about public sector workers.

Many private sector workers due to a myriad of reasons do genuinely struggle. For the lowest paid the State will assist with the Working Family Payment or the One Parent Family Payment or Jobseekers Allowance to part time workers or to Self-Employed people whose businesses are struggling. There are subsidies to farmers and to start-up businesses and tax concessions are also available.

And by the way, if you are paying into a private sector pension scheme I'm sure you realize that the government makes sure you get tax relief on it and encourages your employer to subsidise your private pension too.

I believe that this is what a modern democratic republic with a social conscience should do. I also believe that good public services are required for a healthy society. I believe that a decent salary should be paid to attract suitable workers. I also believe that public servants, in general do a good job and are pretty well qualified.

The public sector does have defined pension schemes for most workers. However, there have been major changes in the way that this has been operated over the last decade and more. Now, many civil servants are paying Class A contributions and so their defined pension is only half of what it used to be and the other half, just like your DB State Pension, is also paid to them.

Whether or not 75k or 90k is a huge lump sum is obviously subject to debate. It certainly doesn’t come close to the payments of some in the private sector but such a comparison would render me guilty of your approach. What kind of lump sum will you or colleagues in your organisation have when it comes to their retirement. Are you paying 8% or more of your gross income towards that lump sum and pension?

The final 18 months of my employment, should I still have a job, will be the same flat rate that took me 18 years to rise to and will remain static for the final 18 years, except for any negotiated cost of living increases which, by the way, has been static for the last 12 years until we finally got some restoration in 2019. I wonder how much of a percentage increase you got in the last 12 years? I know you’re going to say you got none because you don’t really want a nuances and truthful conversation on it. I also know you’re going to say that many people lost their jobs and believe me that is a cause of much sadness to me because I know some who have been in that boat. But just because private sector jobs are lost, it doesn’t automatically follow that public sector jobs should be lost too. There is a certain critical mass that must be maintained. Over the last decade there has been a prorate reduction if public servants relative to the increase in population and the economy.

There may be grounds for pay cuts; we were cut badly after the last recession and remained cut for the best part of a decade. We had terms and conditions reduced including a halving of sick pay entitlements, but we accepted them for the common good and, obviously, we had no option but to accept them.

You need to realise that there is a multitude of factors in any particular debate and it’s not always useful or beneficial to generalise too much.

EndaHonesty

Geuze wrote: »

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Standard-Accrual-Member-Booklet.pdf

Read page 5.

The Single Public Service Pension Scheme
(“Single Pension Scheme”) started on 1 January
2013.

If you joined the Public Service for the first time
on or after 1 January 2013 and are working in a
pensionable position, this is generally the Pension
Scheme that applies to you.

Your Scheme is a Public Service Defined Benefit
Pension Scheme. Your contributions are not
invested in the stock market and the Exchequer
supports your employer in paying your benefits
under the Scheme.

Sinzo wrote: »

That's fine, I presume you know what you are talking about. I thought so myself anyways.

Do you read the post's? An official document from Gov.ie has been linked above.

It literally says "the Scheme is a Public Service Defined Benefit Pension Scheme"

kippy

addaword wrote: »

You are nearly as bad as barney and kippy, who actually have the audacity to complain about others who they claim do not understand averages! DB pension mean defined benefit pension, which everyone in the public service enjoys but extremely few in the private sector can get or have.

I don't complain about those that don't understand averages or are poor at reading comprehension.
I pity them.

JimmyVik

Sinzo wrote: »

You say that defined benefits pensions are not available to most private sector workers.

That is actually not true. There is a significant DB pension available to all private sector employees - including you – it’s called the State Contributory Pension and it entitles you to ca. €12500 per annum at 67. If you have a spouse who has no income of their own OR only has an income of less than €5200 per annum then your defined pension rises to ca. €24,500 per annum. That's a pretty good deal

This is especially the case when you don't necessarily have to contribute 30 or 40 years of service. So private sector workers do have a nice DB pension and I would never begrudge you it. Do you think the government should reduce your DB pension?

I never understood why nobody ever mentions this when they are complaining about the public sector pensions.
They will spend all day trying to work out the fund value a public sector worker would have to have to get their pension, but never work out what the fund value to give you your €12.5 per year was worth.