Public service pay cut?

addaword

Geuze wrote: »

You will be happy to hear that the premium that the PS used to earn over the private sector has been reduced,

But not enough. According to the Irish Times report, it found that average public-sector wages in Ireland amounted to €47,400 compared with €33,900 in the private sector. That was well before Covid 19. In the past few months, many people from the private sector are on €350 per week.

purifol0

purifol0 wrote: »

Wow. Meanwhile the state pension age for the private sector worker is 67!



Fair?

Correct. We don't get that either.

You can retire early based on your private pension scheme.

n97 mini

Geuze wrote: »

The trend shows that the pay differential between the public and private sector is steadily declining in the period 2015 to 2018.

The tech industry effect? Google/Facebook etc. Those lads are paid savage money.

nthclare

I work in the public sector myself,and would happily go down to a three day week.
I work with tree's arboretums, forestry and sometimes crop production ie growing shrub's, bedding plants etc...

If I was on a three day week I could make hay while the sun shines, my son's finished education now and grow up. So I can pursue other project's and I've plenty of interests that would need more time to pursue a more balanced lifestyle.

Where there's a will there's a way, bring it on I say.

addaword

addaword wrote: »

But not enough. According to the Irish Times report, it found that average public-sector wages in Ireland amounted to €47,400 compared with €33,900 in the private sector. That was well before Covid 19. In the past few months, many people from the private sector are on €350 per week.

Did the same survey also tell you the average pay PER HOUR? Wonder how it would look then when you factor in all those people that only work part-time. Even full time isn't 40 hours across the private sector. Lidl and Aldi staff are only rostered for a maximum 30 hours as an example.

Lot less public sector workers with no or little formal education either.

purifol0

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Correct. We don't get that either.

You can retire early based on your private pension scheme.

What pension scheme would that be. 72% of private sector workers dont have one.



Now riddle me this - why are private sector workers pension defined contribution whilst pubSec workers get Defined Benefit? Also why is it they pay only a fraction towards this?


Or that the law was changed so Priv Sec workers now have a higher retirement age than they do?

sabat

sabat wrote: »

How about putting it to the unions that they can have a pay cut or keep the current rates and sack the worst 5% of unverified sick leave takers.

So sack people based on sick records? Illegal in all professions

n97 mini

addaword wrote: »

But not enough. According to the Irish Times report, it found that average public-sector wages in Ireland amounted to €47,400 compared with €33,900 in the private sector. That was well before Covid 19. In the past few months, many people from the private sector are on €350 per week.

There are hundreds of thousands in the private sector on minimum wage. That brings the overall average down. It's not reflective of what equivalent grades are paid, and generally speaking private sector workers will be paid more when it comes to skilled work. They'll also probably work harder (e.g. MRI machines in public hospitals need to have a union-mandated 3 staff, whereas in private hospitals they just go with a manufacturer-mandated 2 staff), and won't get nearly the same pension deal.

purifol0

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Did the same survey also tell you the average pay PER HOUR? Wonder how it would look then when you factor in all those people that only work part-time. Even full time isn't 40 hours across the private sector. Lidl and Aldi staff are only rostered for a maximum 30 hours as an example.

Lot less public sector workers with no or little formal education either.

You mean part time workers like public sector Teachers & Lecturers?

bobbysands81

addaword wrote: »

Of course there will be pay cuts, the country is living way beyond its means and is spending much more than it is taking in. It is unsustainable.

30% of companies reported no reduction in their turnover as a result of COVID-19, there’s plenty of money going around.

Absolutely no change our PS should take a pay cut.

thomasdylan

kippy wrote: »

Look,
there is an issue with sick pay in the public sector - some genuinely take the piss and this really skews the figures, that has been tightened up on however in the past decade, but still not enough probably.

But then there are genuinely jobs in the public sector where you are more likely to get sick or where if you are sick you HAVE to stay out of work. In these current times you can surely appreciate that.

I think this is partly true. HCAs and nurses are going to be more likely to get sick. But there's huge areas of the PS where there's excessive sick leave. Doctors are always the PS worker with lowest sick leave (usually less than 1%) while working the longest hours. Teachers have 7 times as many sick days as doctors despite working a lot less days.

purifol0

purifol0 wrote: »

What pension scheme would that be. 72% of private sector workers dont have one.



Now riddle me this - why are private sector workers pension defined contribution whilst pubSec workers get Defined Benefit? Also why is it they pay only a fraction towards this?


Or that the law was changed so Priv Sec workers now have a higher retirement age than they do?

A, thats entirely their own fault now isn't it?

B, private sector pensions can be defined benefit. You have choices in the private sector. It might cost more but that's a benefit we have. I don't get a Christmas bonus, plenty in private sector do. I don't get a reduced interest rate on my mortgage, plenty of bank staff do. I don't get a company car or travel. I don't get reduced cost flights like aer lingusb or reduced ferry like Irish ferries. There's a long list of what each organisation gives and what each careers benefits are. None of that means I or you should be dragged down or lose a benefit. It's not a race to the bottom.

C, in pay 7% to my pension. It's about the same as I paid in the private and that was based on a 2/3 pension. My current pension is 1/2. The difference is I would have paid into the private for 42 years compared to 30 now. I knew that going into my career.

D, you get 10,000 a year from the state pension. We don't. Factor that in.

kippy

purifol0 wrote: »

I'll think you'll find the main reason for so much sick leave in the public sector is the fact there is the fact you get sick pay itself (also zero consequences of abusing it). Another luxury most private sector employees dont have.

I think you'll find that is a part of it but not the only reason for it.
Would you expect nurses, doctors, teachers to go to work sick?
The sick pay terms have changed a lot in the past number of years in the public sector as I've stated and sick pay in the private sector is common enough in certain sectors.

purifol0

bobbysands81 wrote: »

30% of companies reported no reduction in their turnover as a result of COVID-19, there’s plenty of money going around.

Absolutely no change our PS should take a pay cut.

So what? Tax take is all that matters. If there isnt any, then why should Ireland Inc is broke why do think you should continue to get paid as if it wasn't? Exchequer is likely to be 30billion down on last year, with even more added to the national debt.



And if the govt decides to borrow even more - why should those working in the private sector have their standard of living absolutely destroyed just so you can keep your pay and pension higher than theirs?

bobbysands81

addaword wrote: »

Interestingly, when you google it, the number of sick days taken by Ireland's public servants is almost twice that taken by workers in the private sector according to new figures. Public servants average 8.5 sick days each year compared to 4.5 days in the private sector according to figures released by the Department of Public Expenditure.

Every single sick day that a public servant takes is recorded and used for reporting purposes. It’s naive to think that private sector companies report sick days in the same accurate way. In any private sector job I had my sick days were never reported to DPER so that they could make a comparison against public servants.

kippy

Yeah, I can see the exact same signals in this thread as many of the threads from 09-12. I think I'll unfollow and let ye have at it.

purifol0

purifol0 wrote: »

So what? Tax take is all that matters. If there isnt any, then why should Ireland Inc is broke why do think you should continue to get paid as if it wasn't? Exchequer is likely to be 30billion down on last year, with even more added to the national debt.



And if the govt decides to borrow even more - why should those working in the private sector have their standard of living absolutely destroyed just so you can keep your pay and pension higher than theirs?

Why should we have our standards reduced because your company closed? Why should I pay tax for your covid19 payment? Why do I pay prsi when I won't be on the dole?

Your either in favor of social welfare or your not. You can't just be in favour of what benefits you.

bobbysands81

purifol0 wrote: »

So what? Tax take is all that matters. If there isnt any, then why should Ireland Inc is broke why do think you should continue to get paid as if it wasn't? Exchequer is likely to be 30billion down on last year, with even more added to the national debt.
And if the govt decides to borrow even more - why should those working in the private sector have their standard of living absolutely destroyed just so you can keep your pay and pension higher than theirs?

Increase taxes for those that can afford it, get the Apple money, reduce non-essential public services, politicians are getting out of hand with the roles that some Govt Depts are carrying out, there’s huge amounts of non-essential work being carried out by Depts.

We’ll bounce back quite quickly. The well isn’t dry, there’s plenty of money out there, there’s plenty of tax reform required.

And as for your last paragraph... it’s okay for my family to take a hit in standard of living but not yours? Nimbyism at its finest.

smelly sock

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just waiting till independent news and media get stuck into the public service. They love giving the PS a good kicking.

INM and Fionan Sheehan specifically are the defintion of gutter journalism.

daithi7

Geuze wrote: »

As PS pay for most staff has not recovered to the 2008 levels, you suggestion is utterly unrealistic.....

But 2008 was loony tunes economics, bananas ps pay levels paid with totally unsustainable tax receipts based on massively over inflated one off taxes on hugely artificially elevated property values....

So forget about 2008, stop talking about restoration to anything from then, cos it was mad then, so you're merely pining after further insanity.... the difference being everyone knows that this time round!!

Public sector pay & pensions are simply too high in Ireland. Further our ps efficiency, flexibility & agility are far too low. That's why we do things like paying per capita in the top decile in the OECD for healthcare while we get outcomes in the lowest decile.

I.e. We pay the most for health care in the developed world, but we get the worst results...., and we manage to do this with a very young demographic.... truly pathetic!!!

Also our capital spend / public sector wages is far too low, this is why we end up with things like the lowest icu beds per 100k people in the EU going into a global pandemic....

Overly generous PS pay & pensions & poor productivity costs Ireland hugely. It has continuously prevented us from being able to even slightly reform the health service in the past, and will cost us even more significantly as our working population ages & the pension iceberg comes closer to sinking the whole ship!!

Ireland needs to reform its public sector big time. The IMF flagged this nearly a decade ago now when they left Ireland last. At this rate, we might see them again sooner than we should...

purifol0

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

A, thats entirely their own fault now isn't it?

B, private sector pensions can be defined benefit. You have choices in the private sector. It might cost more but that's a benefit we have. I don't get a Christmas bonus, plenty in private sector do. I don't get a reduced interest rate on my mortgage, plenty of bank staff do. I don't get a company car or travel. I don't get reduced cost flights like aer lingusb or reduced ferry like Irish ferries. There's a long list of what each organisation gives and what each careers benefits are. None of that means I or you should be dragged down or lose a benefit. It's not a race to the bottom.

C, in pay 7% to my pension. It's about the same as I paid in the private and that was based on a 2/3 pension. My current pension is 1/2. The difference is I would have paid into the private for 42 years compared to 30 now. I knew that going into my career.

D, you get 10,000 a year from the state pension. We don't. Factor that in.

Did you forget to mention your lump sum on retirement? Because that alone equates to several years of state pension right there, and none of us will live forever - so its not very nice to force the priv sec to live longer than the pubsec to even avail of their meagre state pension.


Private sector pensions can be defined benefit in the same way as you can win the lotto. This is limited in real terms to company directors - and those companies still ahve to be profitiable other wise youre not getting anything at all.


Worth noting that the highest paid pubsec the gardai have an incredibly early retirement age and of course legally there can be no private sector group to compare them with. Nice!

Geuze

purifol0 wrote: »

Now riddle me this - why are private sector workers pension defined contribution whilst pubSec workers get Defined Benefit? Also why is it they pay only a fraction towards this?


Or that the law was changed so Priv Sec workers now have a higher retirement age than they do?

PS pay 6.5% pension cont and since 2009, the 10% PRD.

OK, I accept that the 10% PRD now applies after 32k, as part of the pay restoration.

But still, 16.5% on all wages over 32k.

addaword

bobbysands81 wrote: »

it’s okay for my family to take a hit in standard of living but not yours?

It is all private sector families who have taken a hit yet again in this recession / pandemic, not public sector families.

We are all in this together? Yeah, right.

Different average salaries, different pensions, different retirement ages, different sick leave..

khalessi

addaword wrote: »

It is all private sector families who have taken a hit, not public sector families.

We are all in this together? Yeah, right.

Different average salaries, different pensions, different retirement ages, different sick leave..

I cant understand this no one made you choose your job. I presume you chose it because you had an interest or passion for it. You also have the choice to change at anytime.

This is it

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

You left your €350 Covid payment thread fairly quick when you were called out.

addaword

khalessi wrote: »

I cant understand this no one made you choose your job. I presume you chose it because you had an interest or passion for it. You also have the choice to change at anytime.

The who country cannot be employed by the state. That was tried elsewhere and failed. Where do you think the money for the public service comes from?

bobbysands81

addaword wrote: »

It is all private sector families who have taken a hit yet again in this recession / pandemic, not public sector families.

We are all in this together? Yeah, right.

Different average salaries, different pensions, different retirement ages, different sick leave..

You fail the Civil Service exams?

purifol0

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You fail the Civil Service exams?

Cheap shot, address the points.

bobbysands81

purifol0 wrote: »

Cheap shot, address the points.

That was a response to his/her pathetic cheap shot at all public servants.

If the poster is so bitter about their life choices then there’s not too much I can do about that. If the PS is such an attractive proposition then the poster should try and join it... maybe he/she has tried and failed thus bitter.

purifol0

bobbysands81 wrote: »

That was a response to his/her pathetic cheap shot at all public servants.

If the poster is so bitter about their life choices then there’s not too much I can do about that. If the PS is such an attractive proposition then the poster should try and join it... maybe he/she has tried and failed thus bitter.

No, this thread is about whether or not the pubsec will get a pay cut. Not anyone's life choices. If pubsec members want to slate members of the private sector (who are literally taxed heavily to pay for an even larger amount of them than ever), and call them suckers for not joining up thats just bad form.