Public service pay cut?

Dav010

Sabella wrote: »

Happy to take a pay freeze as a ps worker and I have worked hard to get into the profession within the public sector, I don’t get a big wage, I work long hours and I works with some amazing, innovative and dedicated colleagues Who really do earn their salary. I did work in the private sector previously and changed career at a later age. I must say Dave, for a self employed person I’m intrigued that you spend a hell of a lot of time on this website, hammering ps workers. My friends who are self employed don’t have the same time as yourself to be online as much . What’s your secret?

I don’t work weekends.

Sabella, when you say long hours, how many hours per week do you work?

Sabella

I do, although I’m not paid, such is the scope of my work load. I’m not complaining I love my job but maybe you are considering all ps workers as one entity. There are good workers who do work hard, some of us pay Avc’s and don’t have guilded pensions.

Freeze my pay I don’t mind but cut my pay I’ll lose my house and I will be a burden on the state that you will ha e to pay for. Just my two cents

Sabella

I work anywhere between 60 to 70 hours a week on average. I’m not going into detail about what I do in the same way I won’t ask you as I don’t need to know. I’m not lying to you and as I say I love my job and I wouldn’t change it for the world

arah lads

stop engaging with anyone who says increase

its trolling at this stage to ignore the correction and how could you take their claimed engagement seriously

also, the govt has confirmed that the restoration goes ahead

the recession will take care of itself, we'll see what it brings for us

boards barstool experts wont have an input into it one way or another

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

Strike in private sector?
How many private sector unions do you reckon their are?

Meanwhile back in reality, if a company couldn’t keep or increase pay (perhaps due to something like a global pandemic?) you are free to resign at any stage.

This needs to be a joke surely? This guy can't really be this clueless?

https://www.cwu.ie/
Www.connectunion.ie
http://www.esu.ie/
http://www.fsunion.org/
www.union.ie
Irish Taxi Council
https://mandate.ie/
https://www.siptu.ie/
https://unitetheunion.org/

None of them are primarily servicing the public sector. Most do not in fact, have any public sector staff within their remit.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/contract_of_employment.html

Educate yourself in employment law surrounding contract and terms of employment

Perhaps while your at it you might open a newspaper that's not a tabloid from the UK.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/debenhams-staff-fear-clerys-ii-if-they-do-not-receive-a-redundancy-settlement-1.4283697

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/over-at-last-luas-strike-finished-as-drivers-get-pay-increases-of-18pc-34770783.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-strikes-compromise-with-unions-1.4277907

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/09/ryanair-pilots-ireland-vote-strike-pay

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/virgin-media-staff-to-ballot-for-strike-action-over-redundancy-plans-1.4083455

ALL PRIVATE SECTOR STAFF IN PRIVATE EMPLOYMENT IN STRIKE ACTION VIA THEIR UNIONS.

SouthWesterly

Dav010 wrote: »

Getting a pay increase, (I know you guys don’t like using the i word) while 19% of the country have lost their jobs and we are heading into a deep recession. That justification.

Services still need to be provided, that I'm sure you will use at some point.
You'll need us to be there to do our jobs then.
I was made redundant twice in the private sector. I didn't go blaming others who kept their jobs. You need to grow up.
It's not my fault someone else lost their job. I'm still doing mine

Dav010

Sabella wrote: »

I work anywhere between 60 to 70 hours a week on average. I’m not going into detail about what I do in the same way I won’t ask you as I don’t need to know. I’m not lying to you and as I say I love my job and I wouldn’t change it for the world

I’m reading through the 2013 agreement to extend hours, it states the majority of civil servants will now work 37 hours per week, those that were 35 or less go to a minimum of 37, those 37 to 39 go to minimum 39, those on 39 hours stay the same. Sebella, these are not long hours. These are not “long hours”, they are about average in the private sector.

The fact that you are working the hours you work is either illegal, or you are working in categories excluded from the OWT legislation.

dubrov

dubrov wrote: »

In fairness, in a recession all bets are off.

The public finances are likely to be shocking this time next year. There is no way the government can meet a pay increase with that scenario

I did my free hours as part of the deal. If they don't honor their side of the deal will they pay the resulting overtime? Will they ****!

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

I’m reading through the 2013 agreement to extend hours, it states the majority of civil servants will now work 37 hours per week, those that were 35 or less go to a minimum of 37, those 37 to 39 go to minimum 39, those on 39 hours stay the same. Sebella, these are not long hours. These are not “long hours”, they are about average in the private sector.

The fact that you are working the hours you work is either illegal, or you are working in categories excluded from the OWT legislation.

No, it's not the average in the private sector. It's the maximum. The maximum is 40 hours.

The maximum cannot be the average when many places don't give more than 30 hours a week AND we have part time staff in bars, etc

(https://jobs.lidl.ie/en/jobsearch.htm)

Dav010

[Deleted User] wrote: »

arah lads

stop engaging with anyone who says increase

its trolling at this stage to ignore the correction and how could you take their claimed engagement seriously

also, the govt has confirmed that the restoration goes ahead

the recession will take care of itself, we'll see what it brings for us

boards barstool experts wont have an input into it one way or another

And you probably wonder why there is such antipathy toward the PS. The detachment from reality really is nauseating. The government confirms the increase, the recession will take care of itself. You summed it up perfectly.

Dav010

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

No, it's not the average in the private sector. It's the maximum. The maximum is 40 hours.

The maximum cannot be the average when many places don't give more than 30 hours a week AND we have part time staff in bars, etc

Are you sure 40 is the maximum?

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

Are you sure 40 is the maximum?

Yes under the working time act, working time directive and Irish law. You cannot legally work more than an average of 48 hours a week including overtime.

As a self employed person you may be exempt from this of course. I don't know.

I also know that Gardai, prison officers and soldiers were not entitled to the same legal protections and we're expressly precluded from labor law. I don't remember you or anyone else in uproar for your fellow workers back then. Must have missed it eh?

Sabella

Dav010 wrote: »

I’m reading through the 2013 agreement to extend hours, it states the majority of civil servants will now work 37 hours per week, those that were 35 or less go to a minimum of 37, those 37 to 39 go to minimum 39, those on 39 hours stay the same. Sebella, these are not long hours. These are not “long hours”, they are about average in the private sector.

The fact that you are working the hours you work is either illegal, or you are working in categories excluded from the OWT legislation.

Dav with the greatest of respect, most people work the hours they work. I am mandated to work even less hours than that as per contract. Again with respect there are many different areas of the public sector and you work your contracted hours and then you work further to ensure you manage your work load and achieve your goals . I’m not really annoyed or interested in debating that 2013 agreement you have posted. I have told you I am telling the truth about my hours and I would have imagined as a self employed man that you would even understand that.

Again I have friends who are self employed who would work as many hours including on a Saturday. Keep an open mind about the public sector many of us work hard and even members of our families lose their jobs

Dav010

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Yes under the working time act, working time directive and Irish law. You cannot legally work more than an average of 48 hours a week including overtime.

As a self employed person you may be exempt from this of course. I don't know.

I also know that Gardai, prison officers and soldiers were not entitled to the same legal protections and we're expressly precluded from labor law. I don't remember you or anyone else in uproar for your fellow workers back then. Must have missed it eh?

Eh, 40 is not the maximum as you claimed, is not what the Organisation of Working Act says, you can get a pretty good synopsis of working week on the link below, 48hrs is the maximum, but that does not mean it can’t exceed it, the average is important.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

Eh, 40 is not the maximum as you claimed, is not what the Organisation of Working Act says, you can get a pretty good synopsis of working week on the link below, 48hrs is the maximum, but that does not mean it can’t exceed it, the average is important.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/hours_of_work/working_week.html

I can get a better understanding by reading the working time directive 2013.

I do not see your point. The average is the average. 48 hours so yes, this week you could do 50 and it needs to be averaged by a reduction another week. That's pretty obvious considering so many people work shifts.

That doesn't change the maximum being 48 including overtime. Travel for staff that have no fixed working place is also classed as working time as per the ecj judgement but but yet tested in Ireland.

And are you seriously suggesting a single company that has they staff working a standard week more than 40 hours on average?

Or are you arguing that no one does a 30 hour week and there's part-time staff in the private sector?

Now again I will ask, have you protested on behalf of Gardai, soldiers and prison officers?

Dav010

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I can get a better understanding by reading the working time directive 2013.

I do not see your point. The average is the average. 48 hours so yes, this week you could do 50 and it needs to be averaged by a reduction another week. That's pretty obvious considering so many people work shifts.

That doesn't change the maximum being 48 including overtime. Travel for staff that have no fixed working place is also classed as working time as per the ecj judgement but but yet tested in Ireland.

And are you seriously suggesting a single company that has they staff working a standard week more than 40 hours on average?

Or are you arguing that no one does a 30 hour week and there's part-time staff in the private sector?

Now again I will ask, have you protested on behalf of Gardai, soldiers and prison officers?

Which is it?

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

No, it's not the average in the private sector. It's the maximum. The maximum is 40 hours.
)

I didn’t protest because others were taking pay cuts as well. Why should you be immune?

There could be lots of people working less than 30 hours, but ya know what, that still doesn’t make 40 the legal maximum. If you read the OWT Act you would know that, (it’s section 15(1))

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

Which is it?



I didn’t protest because others were taking pay cuts as well. Why should you be immune?

There could be lots of people working less than 30 hours, but ya know what, that still doesn’t make 40 the legal maximum. If you read the OWT Act you would know that, (it’s section 15(1))

Want to be very accurate? I never said it was the legal maximum, I said maximum. I said 48 was the legal maximum and I'm correct. I said it in reply to you at 23:22. So find me a company that has more than 40 in their contracts as a standard week and show me that the average is higher in the private sector than the public.

You know, backing up your own argument.

And thanks for answering that you are just a selfish person only looking out for yourself, you didn't give a **** when others were suffering and taking cuts but expect me to care about you and take a cut in solidarity for some reason.

Think we will leave it there.

Dav010

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Want to be very accurate? I never said it was the legal maximum, I said maximum. I said 48 was the legal maximum and I'm correct. I said it in reply to you at 23:22. So find me a company that has more than 40 in their contracts as a standard week and show me that the average is higher in the private sector than the public.

You know, backing up your own argument.

And thanks for answering that you are just a selfish person only looking out for yourself, you didn't give a **** when others were suffering and taking cuts but expect me to care about you and take a cut in solidarity for some reason.

Think we will leave it there.

I don’t expect you to care about me at all, I expect the Government not to care about a promised increase for PSs. I gave a ****e when others were suffering because I was also suffering, just like most businesses are now, and especially the 24% who now find themselves unemployed.

What companies have in their contracts is up to them, you are wrong, you were unequivocal about 40 hrs being the maximum not the average, your quote is above, 40 is not the maximum, legal or otherwise.

barneystinson

You're both a bit embarrassing now tbh. We all now know what both of you meant. Stop dancing on the head of a pin about maximum this and average that and OWT, ye already have plenty else to be arguing about, don't you think...

wonder if someone as add a word with dav

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

And you probably wonder why there is such antipathy toward the PS. The detachment from reality really is nauseating. The government confirms the increase, the recession will take care of itself. You summed it up perfectly.

nah i wonder why you've rushed to take my meaning up wrong

i was fairly clearly addressing the ps workers in this thread wasting their time engaging with ppl with no interest in a serious or fair discussion


restoration, not increase- fact

the govt has confirmed the restoration- fact

"the recession will take care of itself" was more of a "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it" to my side of the debate. we know very well that there'll be serious efforts to cut our conditions.

as well to save ourselves for that battle and not go blue in the face with the ragemartyrs of the private sector on boards

i still think that the suggestion that anyone with reeeeeaaaaaall strong ideas on what types of paycuts and condition changes the public sector should get ought to at least cover the following in order to demonstrate good faith

- gets the facts straight and is gracious when educated/corrected

- evinces a moderate-to-good understanding of why the public sector exists and why it isnt like running a filling station in tobercurry

- lays out their own wealth, income over the past twenty years and projected income going forward, copies their tax clearance certs, properties in their and their spouses/childrens names, the average working week they do and the type of work they do, how they got their start and what laws and regulations they have bent to become the successful and outstanding contributor to society they are today


i think thats a good start.

but musha tis awful hard to find the calibre of public-sector basher you used get, and im not lying

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

you are incorrect to refer to increases, this has been pointed out

not interpreting anything in a particular way

incorrect

not much point if you cannot even take basic correction on a factual error

It all depends on how far you want to go back if you go back pre 2001 they are increases then we borrowed billions to at least doubled what we pay for PS pay and pensions in about 4 years what a couple of rounds of benchmarking and what ever your having yourself . If you talking post 2012 they are restoration. The fact is neither pay rises nor pay restoration can be afforded currently. No point arguing semantics get to the core of the issue as in:

240 billion in debt
20% less people no longer paying into the income tax pool and are now taking money away from it with welfare.
Another 15billion (at least) will be needed next year
Another covid wave most definitely on the way judging by what was going on over the weekend with loonies acting like they will never get a beer again
Then off course Mr Brexit is looming large

But sure lets give you lads both pay restoration and pay increments because your L'Oreal "your worth it"

We don't forget the numerous scandals of the PS over the last 2 decades
From Garda blowing into their breathalyzers to smear tests that killed a host of ladies..Then of course you have the current stupidity of thing like teachers unions spouting their members can not go back to work but its ok for everyone else to go back and pay taxes to pay them for their summer holidays.

But yeah lets just keep throwing money at you guys maybe some day we will get to a magic figure and have a system that actually working for its citizens.

The quicker we get a second wave and get the IMF back in to do the cutting that all governments don't seem to have the stomach to do.

fliball123

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Youre being disingenuous here.
That national debt you speak of it a debt for paying for services which you avail of on a daily basis in some form or other.
I'll take a pay cut if you stop using public services and expecting "my boss" to pay for them.
So don't use the roads, the water, hospitals, schools etc etc and "my boss" Won't have to pay for them and be in debt.

Saying it's public servants fault for doing jobs which pay a wage to provide services you use and that we should be the ones to take the hit is rubbish.

Am I overpaid? Not according to figures the state uses to assess every employee in the country In giving them a wage supplement in the form of a working family payment.

If I had a decent wage I wouldn't need the extra payment and I would be paying more tax back to the state.

What part of what I said is disingenuous do you dispute any of the figures I have stated?? They are the facts and no amount of whinging and moaning by either side will change the facts.

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

to dav010

im not sure what you think youre debating now

pay restoration continues as agreed

if- and this has been said many times in the thread- a major economic downturn occurs, no doubt the next round of pay talks will be a tough process

none of that changes the pay restoration that has been agreed.

this is how it works. were you gnashing your teeth as the govt dawdled over pay restoration the past decade while public workers paid a huge cumulative price to prop up the private banking/property sector?

id say not.

dont come frothing now demanding the entire system change overnight to suit the opinion you formed a minute ago.

its transparent

nb the correct term remains restoration regardless of what you or the private sector would call it.

i mean what the govt as an employer agrees as terms and conditions with its employees is never going to hop and skip to the opinion of every angry barstool, but at least get the terms right and dont squeeze them, youll only make yourself angry that way

This is where the likes of you are not getting it. The private sector is being decimated as you sit there typing companies going to the wall are ramping up quicker than 2008. But you may well get the payrises this year and when we get our second wave and the the 240 billion and 20% unemployment rate ramps up to uncontrollable figures the IMF will be in doing the cutting for us. Then of course you lads can go on crying until 2040 for pay restoration again for the cuts from 2021.

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

jesus

by taking a 15 odd percent real term pay cut for a decade and multiple permanent changes to pension contributions

extra hours

extra workload

promotion opportunities diminished

pay for future roles diminished

i mean are you serious?

all to bail out private sector

this has been proven to be myth 60Billion out of the 200billion was from the banks who were allowed to by public sector government ministers and of course a banking regulator who was asleep at the wheel. so you guys can take your potion out of that as well. The other 140bilion was for the ramping up of unsustainable welfare and public sector pay and pensions. So you bailed yourselfs out a hell of a lot more than you did the private sector

fliball123

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Well I took a 20% wages cut and 25% reduction in allowances because the country found itself needing to prop up failed banks using public funds. We nationalised private losses.

Then I got hit with a public sector tax that the private sector didn't so thats a direct 7% tax payable only by public sector staff and used to fund a loan that went to private investers and had to date not resulted in I or indeed any Joe grunt benefiting.

7% for a contribution to a defined benefit that very few in the private sector can afford. Pay the full costs please

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

rubbish to state that "everybody else" took a pay cut. hundreds of thousands of private sector workers didnt and many of them enjoyed rises throughout the crisis and big rises since. do you think that none of us know anyone in the private sector? most of my mates creamed it and continue to do so in the IT sector- and good luck to them. we all knew the drill when we signed up to our various gigs.

and, because you seem determined to not make a coherent and in-context point, i'll remind you and the rest of ye that i didnt join the public service in order to worry about my job or income during private sector crashes. so dont lecture us about losses and my responsibility to take them on when it happens.

you also seem determined to not draw a distinction between a private sector crash and people buying houses. newsflash- people have to live in houses. the crash was systemic and endemic to two entire private sector industries- banking and construction.

public servants as employees of govt are not responsible for the failure of govt to regulate vulpine and rapine private industry, but if the govt started to do so in a serious way tomorrow id be fine with it and i guarantee the same three dynamos of ****etalk that have run this thread from their positions of all-seeing private sector wisdom would be squealing from the heavens.

who cares what an opinion piece in a private sector mouthpiece publication said? totally unconnected to anything tbh.

You only have to look at the income tax receipts from the years in the last recession to see how much less people were paying so they either got pay cuts or got job cuts either way the private sector got decimated during those years.

fliball123

mosii wrote: »

Met a guy once in a kids play ground while our kids were playing,we started a conversation.He was an extremely nice guy,until the public sector wages came up.He was like a light switch,couldnt understand why the public sector wages were so high,even when i said to him I was a soldier/corporal, for 15 years and my wages were 560 per week,and having to pay 50 euro diesel just to get to the barracks.Its a debate that will go on forever.My opinion is,if we take money out of the economy ,we will all suffer in the end.If people want to cut the public sector,why not cut builders ,electricians plasterers plumbers,etc.,they are still on good money,i know i cant get one cheap.

If a sparks, builder, or plumber etc is charging us to much to do a job we have the choice to change and get a cheaper one or not to get them in at all. We cant do this with the public sector we are stuck with a very out dated, over payed and over complicated system that is nearly unworkable for it citizens.

tayto lover

fliball123 wrote: »

If a sparks, builder, or plumber etc is charging us to much to do a job we have the choice to change and get a cheaper one or not to get them in at all. We cant do this with the public sector we are stuck with a very out dated, over payed and over complicated system that is nearly unworkable for it citizens.

You’d have to go to the Black Economy to find some cheaper and probably unqualified tradesman.
You won’t find unqualified people in the PS.

That argument holds no water. You need a plumber urgently.

GreeBo

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

This needs to be a joke surely? This guy can't really be this clueless?

ALL PRIVATE SECTOR STAFF IN PRIVATE EMPLOYMENT IN STRIKE ACTION VIA THEIR UNIONS.

Clueless indeed.

How many private workers are in a union?