Public service pay cut?

LuasSimon

The Public sector has two extremes of the workforce
! Healthcare workers who in some cases gave their lives to look after the citizens of this country 10/10 citizens
2. Teachers who will do anything possible to get out off doing a days work causing huge stress for many parents juggling work not to mention possibly destroying the futures of so many children . 0/10 citizens

fliball123

LuasSimon wrote: »

The Public sector has two extremes of the workforce
! Healthcare workers who in some cases gave their lives to look after the citizens of this country 10/10 citizens
2. Teachers who will do anything possible to get out off doing a days work causing huge stress for many parents juggling work not to mention possibly destroying the futures of so many children . 0/10 citizens

And both sets will get rewarded with increments no matter what. That in a nutshell is the biggest problem with the sector. If they even gave a bell curve on the pay rises as in those at the top 10% get more money and those at the bottom 10% get less there would be a huge improvement in attitude and work rate and best of all those who work hard get the rewards, those watching the clock get nothing

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Is it a pay rise or pay restoration

This is impossible to answer - some people will call it a rise, some people restoration


Did the public sector contribute more to the debt than any bank.

This is very difficult to answer


Did the PS deserve 2 bouts of benchmarking/ Why cant benchmarking we used to bring down wage?

There were two/three paycuts


Do PS deserve to get increments no matter how good bad or ugly they are

A fair point, PMDS was/is meant to deal with this. I am all for more reviews of performance


Have the PS had any forced job losses in the last recession or when they make a b0ll0x of things as pointed out the different scandals that have come out.

There were no compulsory redundancies, ok. However, headcount did fall during 2009-2015. I can tell you that in the councils, numbers fell 30%


Do the public sector pay enough to cover the full costs of their pensions.

Between the employee and the employer, yes.



So lets not get bogged down anymore with old arguments I am tired winning the argument all the time as you guys have hearsay and very little proof. No point in playing the man either as so many in the P.S do when facts are there in front of them they don't like to deal with reality. So deal with the 7 points I have listed above in bold and make a valid argument why PS wage should be getting a pay rise when the world economy is going into the toilet ?

I myself expected the 2% in 2020 to be scrapped.

However, the public don't seem to have any appetite for austerity, so the politicians reflect that feeling.

I am concerned about the fiscal deficit and debt.

I am expecting a PS pay freeze for 2021 and 2022.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

I myself expected the 2% in 2020 to be scrapped.

However, the public don't seem to have any appetite for austerity, so the politicians reflect that feeling.

I am concerned about the fiscal deficit and debt.

I am expecting a PS pay freeze for 2021 and 2022.

You answered the wrong set the ones in bold were the ones I was looking for arguments against and why public servants should be getting payrises?? The arguments you responded to are the ones I said are now redundant due to the new paradigm the country and world finds itself in.

helpful

LuasSimon wrote: »

The Public sector has two extremes of the workforce
! Healthcare workers who in some cases gave their lives to look after the citizens of this country 10/10 citizens
2. Teachers who will do anything possible to get out off doing a days work causing huge stress for many parents juggling work not to mention possibly destroying the futures of so many children . 0/10 citizens

And health care workers who didn’t give their lives and just did the job they were trained to do as well as some who took time off (I know of cases of this happening).
Then there are teachers who did everything they could to help the children in their class. I know of teachers and principals who called to the children’s houses to deliver books and food. Teachers weren’t set up to teach from home so let’s not pretend that it’s as easy as just switching on the computer.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

And both sets will get rewarded with increments no matter what. That in a nutshell is the biggest problem with the sector. If they even gave a bell curve on the pay rises as in those at the top 10% get more money and those at the bottom 10% get less there would be a huge improvement in attitude and work rate and best of all those who work hard get the rewards, those watching the clock get nothing

Most people would in some way agree with you.

The unions are the challenge.

They will not agree to any talk of any type of performance-related pay.

I spoke to a very open, honest PS this week, whose work is linked to schools (not a teacher).

He openly admits "it's a handy number", he is well paid for max 6 hrs work per day. Now, he does need certain scarce skills in the job, yes, but the workload is not high.

However, he also points out that his colleagues in the exact same role in other parts of Ireland are very busy as the workload is related to the profile of kids in the area.

Compare him to the staff processing PUP claims, or doctors on a COVID ward

Could we give some staff groups an increment, and hold back the increment for others?

The unions wouldn't agree.

fliball123

helpful wrote: »

And health care workers who didn’t give their lives and just did the job they were trained to do as well as some who took time off (I know of cases of this happening).
Then there are teachers who did everything they could to help the children in their class. I know of teachers and principals who called to the children’s houses to deliver books and food. Teachers weren’t set up to teach from home so let’s not pretend that it’s as easy as just switching on the computer.

There are always going to be outliers in both sectors. If teachers dont want to come back in September they should be put on the Corona payment scheme I dont see why they should get paid a full wage for not engaging with reality that by them not showing up it means people have to stay off work to mind their kids meaning less tax take for the country.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Jesus answer the question do public servants pay the full cost of their pension?

Between the employee's contributions, and the employer's contributions, the full cost is covered, yes.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Some on here do, so if they don't pay the full cost who picks up the tab for the rest?

Employees never pay the full cost.

The employer also contributes.



I will take Irish teachers as an example.

They pay 6.5% of salary
plus ASC of 10% of salary over 34.5k.

UK teachers pay 9.6% on average.

(7.4 - 11.7%)

https://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/employers/managing-members/contributions/calculating-contributions.aspx

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

You answered the wrong set the ones in bold were the ones I was looking for arguments against and why public servants should be getting payrises?? The arguments you responded to are the ones I said are now redundant due to the new paradigm the country and world finds itself in.

You are suggesting that the final pay restoration of the PSSA, due in 2020, should be scrapped.

I don't disagree with you.

All I'm saying is that there doesn't seem to much public support for scrapping the 2% in Oct.

And the politicians have implied: there won't be any austerity.

So I am saying that you are correct - there are many arguments against paying the 2% in Oct 2020.

But it seems that it will be paid.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

Between the employee's contributions, and the employer's contributions, the full cost is covered, yes.

Yeah and forgetting that the employer is the tax payer a lot of whom can't afford their own pension. So look lets not get bogged down on the last recession I have tried to move the conversation on to the here and now . You will always see that the PS cover the full cost of their pension when in reality they dont, you only have to look at how much a garda pension costs to service. So lets just leave the argument alone its doing no good for anyone and get back to the 7 points about this recession that I listed and why the PS should get payrises

Pogue eile

The 2% is part of pay restoration, not a pay rise and in fact doesn't even bring pay back to where it was pre Austerity. That's fine though as the PS were willing to play their part in the recovery.

Increments are not awarded to everyone, I know plenty of people who have been refused increments for many reasons - this probably doesn't happen enough but that is an entirely separate argument.

Increments are limited and are not available throughout a persons career, if people actually understood what the premise/logic of increments were they might appreciate that.

People have cushy numbers in the PS - absolutely, same as any industry or service. Are all private sector workers who earn the same performing the same workload - like hell they are.

Personally I am in a position where I would be quite happy to accept a pay freezer for 18-24 months for example but I do not agree with the notion of cancelling an agreed pay restoration. Such a move affects the lower paid the most and that would have a huge negative affect to both the Public Sector and the economy as a whole.

I sometimes wonder do those calling for PS cuts left right and centre actually understand how an economy actually works? Or do you think that all these PS workers are hoarding away great piles of cash in their offshore accounts.

Try living in Dublin on a clerical or even just above clerical level salary in the PS and come back to me. I was recently involved in a recruitment campaign as part of the countries preperations for Brexit and we couldn't even get candidates to apply for the Dublin positions. I would have thought with all the lads here who view the PS as some sort of golden egg we would have been bowled over with applicants, but of course that was pre COVID and in the good times everyone wants to be in the private sector.

Damian Faint Carp

Damian Faint Carp wrote: »

Not a hope, cutting nurses pay during this would create a political storm

And here is the problem with the Public Sector being treated as a single entity.

fliball123

Pogue eile wrote: »

The 2% is part of pay restoration, not a pay rise and in fact doesn't even bring pay back to where it was pre Austerity. That's fine though as the PS were willing to play their part in the recovery.

Increments are not awarded to everyone, I know plenty of people who have been refused increments for many reasons - this probably doesn't happen enough but that is an entirely separate argument.

Increments are limited and are not available throughout a persons career, if people actually understood what the premise/logic of increments were they might appreciate that.

People have cushy numbers in the PS - absolutely, same as any industry or service. Are all private sector workers who earn the same performing the same workload - like hell they are.

Personally I am in a position where I would be quite happy to accept a pay freezer for 18-24 months for example but I do not agree with the notion of cancelling an agreed pay restoration. Such a move affects the lower paid the most and that would have a huge negative affect to both the Public Sector and the economy as a whole.

I sometimes wonder do those calling for PS cuts left right and centre actually understand how an economy actually works? Or do you think that all these PS workers are hoarding away great piles of cash in their offshore accounts.

Try living in Dublin on a clerical or even just above clerical level salary in the PS and come back to me. I was recently involved in a recruitment campaign as part of the countries preperations for Brexit and we couldn't even get candidates to apply for the Dublin positions. I would have thought with all the lads here who view the PS as some sort of golden egg we would have been bowled over with applicants, but of course that was pre COVID and in the good times everyone wants to be in the private sector.

And yet public service pay rates are higher than those in the private sector and as for the living in Dublin comment we are all running the same race and jumping the same hurdles, but 20% of people working in the private sector have effectively lost their jobs are you sure you want to be in the private sector as there will be a lot more job losses over the next 12 to 24 months

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

And yet public service pay rates are higher than those in the private sector and as for the living in Dublin comment we are all running the same race and jumping the same hurdles, but 20% of people working in the private sector have effectively lost their jobs are you sure you want to be in the private sector as there will be a lot more job losses over the next 12 to 24 months

Much much lower in IT, for equivalent roles, even accounting for job security/pension/Annual Leave...

Actually, the major problem with public pay is that (expecting very specific circumstances) you can not attract experienced private sector workers, as have to start at the bottom of a pay scale. Just means that you are left with people institutionalised with public ways of working.

Newbie20

Would the people on here complaining every day about the Public Sector not just join it immediately? You have all explained how cushy it is and well paid so surely that makes you complete idiots for not joining? You could replace that bitterness with bags and bags of money!!

helpful

fliball123 wrote: »

There are always going to be outliers in both sectors. If teachers dont want to come back in September they should be put on the Corona payment scheme I dont see why they should get paid a full wage for not engaging with reality that by them not showing up it means people have to stay off work to mind their kids meaning less tax take for the country.

So good teachers are the outliers based on what exactly? How do you teach 5 year olds on zoom for 5 hours a day when their household has one computer and their parents are working from home? It’s not possible so the next best thing is google classroom and other similar sites. Every teacher I know was still teaching throughout COVID-19 obviously not as they would have in the classroom.
If hospitals had to close nurses wouldn’t have been able to do the job the same way they do now.
If teachers refuse to return to the classroom in September there’ll be a good reason for it. Why should they be the only profession that returns with lesser measures in place? Teachers are not there to babysit children while their parents are in work. Any teacher who refuses to return for no reason should be put on covid payment though obviously.

fliball123

helpful wrote: »

So good teachers are the outliers based on what exactly? How do you teach 5 year olds on zoom for 5 hours a day when their household has one computer and their parents are working from home? It’s not possible so the next best thing is google classroom and other similar sites. Every teacher I know was still teaching throughout COVID-19 obviously not as they would have in the classroom.
If hospitals had to close nurses wouldn’t have been able to do the job the same way they do now.
If teachers refuse to return to the classroom in September there’ll be a good reason for it. Why should they be the only profession that returns with lesser measures in place? Teachers are not there to babysit children while their parents are in work. Any teacher who refuses to return for no reason should be put on covid payment though obviously.

On the basis of experience I have 2 kids going to school and all they got were a text on Aladdin for the work they had to do at the start of the week and then we had to submit the work we got no information if the work was right or wrong..so how long does it take to compose a message in Aladdin?? If this wasn't the experience of the majority of parents then I take it back but this was my experience

When is the next agreement to get under way?

They should look at reduced hours or a 4 day week.

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

And both sets will get rewarded with increments no matter what. That in a nutshell is the biggest problem with the sector. If they even gave a bell curve on the pay rises as in those at the top 10% get more money and those at the bottom 10% get less there would be a huge improvement in attitude and work rate and best of all those who work hard get the rewards, those watching the clock get nothing

I'm not convinced you work all that hard yourself. So of course it follows you will be telling everyone they should work harder..

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not convinced you work all that hard yourself. So of course it follows you will be telling everyone they should work harder..

This is where this kind of argument is null and void, your taxes don't go to pay my wage so I could sit here and be stretching my balls off and it wont cost you a cent. The same cant be same of people working in the public sector?

helpful

fliball123 wrote: »

On the basis of experience I have 2 kids going to school and all they got were a text on Aladdin for the work they had to do at the start of the week and then we had to submit the work we got no information if the work was right or wrong..so how long does it take to compose a message in Aladdin?? If this wasn't the experience of the majority of parents then I take it back but this was my experience

As you said there’s always an outlier and based on my experience I’d say your children are in the minority. There could also be reasons that these teachers did not give feedback. I’m not sure what it could have been as I know every teacher I know gave feedback.
My personal experience is that most parents didn’t care about school work come the end of April and stopped doing it with their children. Any work will just be redone in September so the children aren’t missing out on anything.

Also just in relation to other posts of yours you do realise that teachers and other public sector workers also pay tax? So it’s not a personal attack on your salary alone? Maybe look into a public sector job if it’s they’re that easy

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

This is where this kind of argument is null and void, your taxes don't go to pay my wage so I could sit here and be stretching my balls off and it wont cost you a cent. The same cant be same of people working in the public sector?

Did you not say earlier in this thread that you don't pay tax here?

Btw its not null and void at all. Public Servants won't be taking lectures from someone lying scratching their balls.

Remember you have no more say on how this country is run than any other citizen. We only have 1 vote.

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you not say earlier in this thread that you don't pay tax here?

Btw its not null and void at all. Public Servants won't be taking lectures from someone lying scratching their balls.

Remember you have no more say on how this country is run than any other citizen. We only have 1 vote.

When did I say I dont pay tax? I do pay tax and I want to see something for what I pay not the scandal making machine that is our current public sector.

barneystinson

fliball123 wrote: »

You answered the wrong set the ones in bold were the ones I was looking for arguments against and why public servants should be getting payrises?? The arguments you responded to are the ones I said are now redundant due to the new paradigm the country and world finds itself in.

So, if you decide there's no point in arguing about something, that's it? /Thread ?! You're a real hoot Fliball, bringing the lolz in these dark times...

barneystinson

fliball123 wrote: »

Some on here do, so if they don't pay the full cost who picks up the tab for the rest?

The employer, obviously. That's how defined benefit pension schemes work Fliball, you do enough whingeing about them (as they apply in the public sector at least), that I'd have expected you understand that much at least.

Anyone with a brain in their head values their employment package, including their pension. That applies equally to private or public.

Since you are so fond of facts, here's a few:

- it is a fact that based on pay alone, it is at the lower levels of PS pay that there's a gap in favour of PS employees.
- it is a fact that the value of a PS defined benefit pension is the least, at this end of the pay distribution.
- it is a fact that at the higher end of the pay distribution, PS pay lags behind private sector pay.
- it is a fact that the value of a PS DB pension is greater at this end of the pay distribution.

The public sector competes with the private sector for staff, and whether you agree with it or not they actually try to attract and retain competent people, and the package they offer reflects that desire. The public sector has a longer timeframe in mind than the immediacy of each recession as it arises, when you and your ilk start foaming at the mouth, then vanish into the woods for a few years again after the business cycle swings back the other way...

BTW I personally went through this with you, AD NAUSEUM about 8 or 9 years ago, but it's not exactly surprising to see you've learned / retained diddly squat. Hilarious to think you've ever "won the argument" though, when as I recall you wanted some or all of forced redundancies, 20% across the board pay cuts, and the PS to pay the full cost of their pensions - if you'd "won the arguments" on those, shouldn't they have happened.

fliball123

barneystinson wrote: »

The employer, obviously. That's how defined benefit pension schemes work Fliball, you do enough whingeing about them (as they apply in the public sector at least), that I'd have expected you understand that much at least.

Anyone with a brain in their head values their employment package, including their pension. That applies equally to private or public.

Since you are so fond of facts, here's a few:

- it is a fact that based on pay alone, it is at the lower levels of PS pay that there's a gap in favour of PS employees.
- it is a fact that the value of a PS defined benefit pension is the least, at this end of the pay distribution.
- it is a fact that at the higher end of the pay distribution, PS pay lags behind private sector pay.
- it is a fact that the value of a PS DB pension is greater at this end of the pay distribution.

The public sector competes with the private sector for staff, and whether you agree with it or not they actually try to attract and retain competent people, and the package they offer reflects that desire. The public sector has a longer timeframe in mind than the immediacy of each recession as it arises, when you and your ilk start foaming at the mouth, then vanish into the woods for a few years again after the business cycle swings back the other way...

BTW I personally went through this with you, AD NAUSEUM about 8 or 9 years ago, but it's not exactly surprising to see you've learned / retained diddly squat. Hilarious to think you've ever "won the argument" though, when as I recall you wanted some or all of forced redundancies, 20% across the board pay cuts, and the PS to pay the full cost of their pensions - if you'd "won the arguments" on those, shouldn't they have happened.

The overall fact is that the tax payer picks up the tab for all costs of public sector defined benefit (very few of these in the private sector) pensions. They should be changed to defined contribution or stopped completely and allow the ps to get the OAP, I reckon that would even the playing field. I know the PS pay something towards their pension the argument I have been making is that what they pay comes no where near covering it. I have been trying to get this through you head for the last decade and you refuse to see the 2 sectors and how badly it is swayed in favor of public sector pensions and how wrong that is.

PS pension is guaranteed and at no risk of the government raiding it and at no risk to the markets and we get to pay the costs of these pensions not just the pension. Like I say you only have to go through a garda pension to understand how much we are on the hook for. Yet you think this is fine when people in the private sector will be probably 80 by the time they can get the OAP. I think after a decade we will have to agree to disagree I wont sway you and you wont sway me so its going to be a stalemate

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

When did I say I dont pay tax? I do pay tax and I want to see something for what I pay not the scandal making machine that is our current public sector.

You should show more gratitude.

fliball123

barneystinson wrote: »

So, if you decide there's no point in arguing about something, that's it? /Thread ?! You're a real hoot Fliball, bringing the lolz in these dark times...

Right well back to the point on topic the recession that is going to be hitting town soon and back to my post. No point going back over old wars as the new war is pretty much here so. Read below and challenge the points I have made.

My claim is this have a look at the below 7 points and if you dispute any of the below 7 points and make a valid argument for pay rises in the public sector I would love to hear it?

240 billion in debt and at least another 15Bilion next year

Borrowing billions a week

Currently 20%+ more on social welfare that were once tax payers

Already some high profile companies have hit the wall, such as Debenhams, a lot of pubs and other companies in the private sector are sheding jobs as well and some will just not be reopening and this is just the tipping point. Look at the U.S
https://www.forbes.com/sites/hanktuc.../#33a02daa3425

No emigration release valve for people to leave meaning more welfare

A very high likelihood of a second wave, you only have to look at Dame Lane over the weekend to understand that some people are being very reckless this will have a further impact on job losses, tax take and welfare payments.

Brexit to kick in with in the next 2 years


Now what we have been hung up on as its a throw back to the last recession and the below arguments are no longer needed to be fought as Public sector will have their view and then there will be the truth so there is no need to continue arguing the below points as the corona virus/up coming recession has superseded them.

Is it a pay rise or pay restoration

Did the public sector contribute more to the debt than any bank.

Did the PS deserve 2 bouts of benchmarking/ Why cant benchmarking we used to bring down wage?

Do PS deserve to get increments no matter how good bad or ugly they are

Have the PS had any forced job losses in the last recession or when they make a b0ll0x of things as pointed out the different scandals that have come out.

Do the public sector pay enough to cover the full costs of their pensions.


So lets not get bogged down anymore with old arguments I am tired winning the argument all the time as you guys have hearsay and very little proof. No point in playing the man either as so many in the P.S do when facts are there in front of them they don't like to deal with reality. So deal with the 7 points I have listed above in bold and make a valid argument why PS wage should be getting a pay rise when the world economy is going into the toilet ?

Pogue eile

fliball123 wrote: »

And yet public service pay rates are higher than those in the private sector and as for the living in Dublin comment we are all running the same race and jumping the same hurdles, but 20% of people working in the private sector have effectively lost their jobs are you sure you want to be in the private sector as there will be a lot more job losses over the next 12 to 24 months

You don't think that private sector wages are adjusted for Dublin/outside Dublin?

And not sure where you got the idea that I want to be in the private sector? I made a conscious decision a number of years back that I was happier to take the security and consistency of the Public Service over the boom and bust nature of the private sector and I am quite happy with that decision. Everyone else had the same choice to a certain extent.

Do you think that the losses in the private sector will be increased or decreased by removing the spending power of the entire public sector? Economics is not your strong point, but maybe you are hoping the second wave will remove some of the wage bill!