Public service pay cut?

hardybuck

I'm a civil servant earning a reasonably high salary, but in line with my professional field and similar to what I'd expect to earn in the private sector if I chose to return to it.

I'm earning less than I did in 2008 and working longer for it, but not complaining as I really enjoy my job. While salaries have gone up elsewhere, we were still hoping to get back to our previous level of pay that's never been restored.

While some people are quieter than usual due to the lack of a new Government, most people are absolutely flat out responding to this crisis. It'll be a mad summer if a new Government is formed.

That said, I'm realistic, and the last public sector pay cuts reduced the public sector paybill by several billion, and it might be inevitable that they go to the well again - but the nurses, Gardai and teachers will be hugely challenging.

The Civil Service is facing an age cliff and a large amount of retirements, another moratorium on recruitment would be a disaster.

addaword

bobbysands81 wrote: »

That was a response to his/her pathetic cheap shot at all public servants.

I am not taking a cheap shot at all public servants. Some public servants work hard. Some deserve their salaries. I have family members and friends who are public servants, I guess most people have. We are still entitled to come to the conclusion "Public sector pay & pensions are simply too high in Ireland. Further our ps efficiency, flexibility & agility are far too low. "

hardybuck

addaword wrote: »

I am not taking a cheap shot at all public servants. Some public servants work hard. Some deserve their salaries. I have family members and friends who are public servants, I guess most people have. We are still entitled to come to the conclusion "Public sector pay & pensions are simply too high in Ireland. Further our ps efficiency, flexibility & agility are far too low. "

You are entitled to your opinion but it should be informed by evidence.

addaword

hardybuck wrote: »

You are entitled to your opinion but it should be informed by evidence.

I gave plenty of quotes from reports in the Irish Times, none of which were refuted.

The_Honeybadger

Flavour Diaper wrote: »

I work in the civil service. Have had workload quadrupled, off my feet day after day after day since this started and straight into bed when I come home. Others on much higher salaries are pissing around in their gardens. I believe the civil service across all levels should have been leveled out at 350 a week in a show of solidarity with everyone else from the start of the pandemic.

I can relate to this, I moved to PS a few years ago, relatively high level, good salary, took a pay cut to do it partly for the job security and partly because I am very interested in the area I am now in. My workload has completely exploded since Covid19, I am hopelessly overloaded and every day is extremely stressful and difficult, albeit not as difficult as what business owners and the newly unemployed are facing. I have close family members whose lives have been completely upended in recent months and I understand how difficult it is for people.

The situation in the PS is very unusual, there are certain areas of the service like mine that have never ever had to work harder with no end in sight, and there are other areas now effectively idle with staff technically working from home but having no meaningful work to do by their own admission. How you could implement a blanket pay cut across the PS now in a fair manner I don’t know.

I don’t honestly expect pay cuts though, during the last recession austerity was the favoured approach but the PIGS (remember that acronym) were the pariahs of Europe, and there was little solidarity with other EU members or sympathy from them for that matter. This is a global issue and everyone is in the same boat. I think stimulus will be the approach this time.

hardybuck

addaword wrote: »

I gave plenty of quotes from reports in the Irish Times, none of which were refuted.

Just had a look, and it appears that you quoted some Garda pay figures, and an average wage comparison between public and private - is that your evidence?

KaneToad

mariaalice wrote: »

So a complete solo run by John Moran then?

You do realise that he left the dept of finance more than 6 years ago?

Beaverpunisher

pinkyeye wrote: »

You see this is what bugs me about civil servants. BASIC salary for a paramedic is 36,000, that is not 600 per week, so why lie?

28.182 starting actually. And he didn’t say he was a Paramedic. There are numerous grades within the ambulance service

SouthWesterly

addaword wrote: »

But not enough. According to the Irish Times report, it found that average public-sector wages in Ireland amounted to €47,400 compared with €33,900 in the private sector. That was well before Covid 19. In the past few months, many people from the private sector are on €350 per week.

Most are in the service in the last 4-5 years. They start on 24k now. I started on just over 21k .So should we take a 25% cut?

FGR

Just to add - Private vs Public Sector wage comparisons are not fair when 137,000 people are on minimum wage alone in the private sector whereas the Public Sector does not have roles which warrant minimum pay (source). Not to mention the many roles that would not be comparative with a Public Sector job but still command a slightly higher than minimum wage.

I also enjoy the averages being used for pay - mix in the Clerical Officers with the Secretary Generals and everyone in between and the figures are incredibly skewed.

purifol0

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Most are in the service in the last 4-5 years. They start on 24k now. I started on just over 21k .So should we take a 25% cut?

Actually what should be done is figure out if your job can be outsourced to the private sector for less. Even better figure out if you are needed at all. The entire public service is massively over staffed as is. And the last recession proved that even after a huge amount of workers opted for retirement, they were not replaced simply because it turns out they were doing nothing productive or necessary at all.


Are you another pen pusher that could be outsourced for less or even completely obsoleted by a half decent programmer? Because if you are a clerical officer you absolutely can be, and frankly thats how it should be.



The private sector does not exist so you people can have handy jobs for life.

hardybuck

FGR wrote: »

Just to add - Private vs Public Sector wage comparisons are not fair when a 137,000 are on minimum wage alone in the private sector whereas the Public Sector does not have roles which warrant minimum pay (source). Not to mention the many roles that would not be comparative with a Public Sector job but still command a slightly higher than minimum wage.

I also enjoy the averages being used for pay - mix in the Clerical Officers with the Secretary Generals and everyone in between and the figures are incredibly skewed.

Comparisons are a waste of time when you're not comparing like for like.

tayto lover

addaword wrote: »

And how many public servants lost their pay and pensions during the pandemic? The private sector took all the pain.

I’m not a public sector worker but everyone took a hit in different ways.
You need to educate yourself.

purifol0

tayto lover wrote: »

I’m not a public sector worker but everyone took a hit in different ways.
You need to educate yourself.

Feel free to educate us.

hardybuck

purifol0 wrote: »

Actually what should be done is figure out if your job can be outsourced to the private sector for less. Even better figure out if you are needed at all. The entire public service is massively over staffed as is. And the last recession proved that even after a huge amount of workers opted for retirement, they were not replaced simply because it turns out they were doing nothing productive or necessary at all.


Are you another pen pusher that could be outsourced for less or even completely obsoleted by a half decent programmer? Because if you are a clerical officer you absolutely can be, and frankly thats how it should be.



The private sector does not exist so you people can have handy jobs for life.

Do you have any evidence to support your views regarding overstaffing?

During the last recession there was a commitment in the civil service to explore greater utilisation of shared services, but outsourcing was mostly deemed unsuitable. As far as I can see a lot of private sector companies are quietly shelving outsourcing projects and doing things in house again.

Robotics is certainly already starting to get traction and will be the new fad to help drive cost cutting and efficiencies.

The moratorium as you point out resulted in a freeze on recruitment and promotions for 6 years. Anyone who retired or left wasn't replaced, which was partly offset by increased hours worked by fewer people, and other efficiencies, but it damaged the level of service that the public receive could receive. Our population is growing and that will place more demands from the sector.

In addition, it fuelled an age cliff that's going to result in a large exodus in the next few years which will create a lot of challenges.

GSBellew

addaword wrote: »

It is all private sector families who have taken a hit yet again in this recession / pandemic, not public sector families.

We are all in this together? Yeah, right.

Different average salaries, different pensions, different retirement ages, different sick leave..

Not all public sector are on huge money, my wife's take home pay is less than €30 more than the €350 pandemic payment, she's been working full time throughout this, what do you want to cut her pay to?

I'm working in the private sector, so I see and experience both sides.

na1

purifol0 wrote: »

Wow. Meanwhile the state pension age for the private sector worker is 67!



Fair?

and to get the full contributory pension you need an average of 48 annual PRSI contributions. which means you need to be employed 92% of time since your first job until you reach 67.

purifol0

hardybuck wrote: »

Do you have any evidence to support your views regarding overstaffing?

During the last recession there was a commitment in the civil service to explore greater utilisation of shared services, but outsourcing was mostly deemed unsuitable. As far as I can see a lot of private sector companies are quietly shelving outsourcing projects and doing things in house again.

Robotics is certainly already starting to get traction and will be the new fad to help drive cost cutting and efficiencies.

The moratorium as you point out resulted in a freeze on recruitment and promotions for 6 years. Anyone who retired or left wasn't replaced, which was partly offset by increased hours worked by fewer people, and other efficiencies, but it damaged the level of service that the public receive could receive. Our population is growing and that will place more demands from the sector.

In addition, it fuelled an age cliff that's going to result in a large exodus in the next few years which will create a lot of challenges.

It damaged the level of service? Good god man do you have any idea just how low the level of service has always been? Do you think nearly half the general populace buys private health cover every year for the hell of it? Do you think people ring the Gardai with much faith in them to turn up? If you lose your passport on holiday you better hope its on a week day because our civil service still only works Pillar-Bank hours like its decades in the past. Actually so do most of our HSE staff that arent nurses or doctors eg physio's, radiologists etc.



You want to talk about ROBOTICS when we have highly paid pen pushers that still POST things to each other and everything is still hand written on paper. Even the driving license centres which were introduced after the last recession still to this day post forms all the way to Limerick. Oh they have broadband and a scanner at the desk, thats just not the way they do things.


Nurses union would strike immediately if a change in their work practices would take them away from filling forms all day at a desk.



I mean the PubSec employ porters FFS. A man that simply stands there all day saying which queue to join. How much do you think one of those would get paid in the privaate sector eh?





Bus Eireann - high prices & unreliable service

Irish Rail - VERY high prices & service not guaranteed at commuting hours





FOI - freedom of information requests - can be done very quickly using computers - Civil service can respond to them as if they found the records by hand! Courtesy of Enda Kenny


Id like to address the rest but its 1:45am, maybe tomorrow.

purifol0

GSBellew wrote: »

Not all public sector are on huge money, my wife's take home pay is less than €30 more than the €350 pandemic payment, she's been working full time throughout this, what do you want to cut her pay to?

I'm working in the private sector, so I see and experience both sides.

Lower it to minimum wage if need be. If she leaves for a better job somewhere else job great. And if the position absolutely needs to be filled again the pay should be adjusted to attract a candidate back to the role.



Public sector shouldn't be any different to private sector in this regard. The state should only pay for what it needs, not exist to give people cushy govt jobs for life.

hardybuck

purifol0 wrote: »

It damaged the level of service? Good god man do you have any idea just how low the level of service has always been? Do you think nearly half the general populace buys private health cover every year for the hell of it? Do you think people ring the Gardai with much faith in them to turn up? If you lose your passport on holiday you better hope its on a week day because our civil service still only works Pillar-Bank hours like its decades in the past. Actually so do most of our HSE staff that arent nurses or doctors eg physio's, radiologists etc.



You want to talk about ROBOTICS when we have highly paid pen pushers that still POST things to each other and everything is still hand written on paper. Even the driving license centres which were introduced after the last recession still to this day post forms all the way to Limerick. Oh they have broadband and a scanner at the desk, thats just not the way they do things.


Nurses union would strike immediately if a change in their work practices would take them away from filling forms all day at a desk.



I mean the PubSec employ porters FFS. A man that simply stands there all day saying which queue to join. How much do you think one of those would get paid in the privaate sector eh?





Bus Eireann - high prices & unreliable service

Irish Rail - VERY high prices & service not guaranteed at commuting hours





FOI - freedom of information requests - can be done very quickly using computers - Civil service can respond to them as if they found the records by hand! Courtesy of Enda Kenny


Id like to address the rest but its 1:45am, maybe tomorrow.

I think you should go on Joe Duffy. He'd love you.

GSBellew

purifol0 wrote: »

Lower it to minimum wage if need be. If she leaves for a better job somewhere else job great. And if the position absolutely needs to be filled again the pay should be adjusted to attract a candidate back to the role.



Public sector shouldn't be any different to private sector in this regard. The state should only pay for what it needs, not exist to give people cushy govt jobs for life.

So how many hours should those on the dole work for the €203?

purifol0

GSBellew wrote: »

So how many hours should those on the dole work for the €203?

Plenty of other threads that comment on our social welfare system. If we discuss that even slightly I just know this one would go completely off topic, not that it's not a worthy conversation especially when you look at how much is spent on welfare but it really needs its own thread

ILoveYourVibes

No pay cuts for TD's of course.

Hotblack Desiato

noodler wrote: »

Ministers and TDs have their pay linked to that of PO in the Civil Service - anything you have wve read about a Minister/TD getting a pay rise has actually simply been part of the wider PS.

Not so fast. TDs are linked to the civil service PO grade now, but back in the 80s they were linked to the HEO grade, which is two full grades lower and on little more than half the money.

Now, who do you think rubber-stamped that decision...?

MrDavid1976

I don’t expect that the increase scheduled for October will go ahead but you will expect a kick back from certain sectors.

However, the scope for cuts that was there in 2008 is not there now. All public servants are subject to a pension levy which makes a big indent on take home pay.

Aside from that - do we want austerity in the economy? Do business need a situation whereby the money that ends up back in the local economy is scaled back - that will lead to a reduction in demand and hit private sector employment?

Other countries have learned from the financial crisis and are looking at how to stimulate the economy - it will have repercussions down the line but a double dip recession will not help anyone.

All the IO’s - IMF, OECD and World Bank are pointing to stimulus as we emerge from this. But nice to see that Stephen Collins is back on his public sector mantra (despite the fact that the fat is not there to trim in terms of pay and is there any point have redundancies if people end up on the dole queue).

LillySV

purifol0 wrote: »

It damaged the level of service? Good god man do you have any idea just how low the level of service has always been? Do you think nearly half the general populace buys private health cover every year for the hell of it? Do you think people ring the Gardai with much faith in them to turn up? If you lose your passport on holiday you better hope its on a week day because our civil service still only works Pillar-Bank hours like its decades in the past. Actually so do most of our HSE staff that arent nurses or doctors eg physio's, radiologists etc.



You want to talk about ROBOTICS when we have highly paid pen pushers that still POST things to each other and everything is still hand written on paper. Even the driving license centres which were introduced after the last recession still to this day post forms all the way to Limerick. Oh they have broadband and a scanner at the desk, thats just not the way they do things.


Nurses union would strike immediately if a change in their work practices would take them away from filling forms all day at a desk.



I mean the PubSec employ porters FFS. A man that simply stands there all day saying which queue to join. How much do you think one of those would get paid in the privaate sector eh?





Bus Eireann - high prices & unreliable service

Irish Rail - VERY high prices & service not guaranteed at commuting hours





FOI - freedom of information requests - can be done very quickly using computers - Civil service can respond to them as if they found the records by hand! Courtesy of Enda Kenny


Id like to address the rest but its 1:45am, maybe tomorrow.

In regard to your problem about forms and data... you would probably be the first one to give out about data protection and the risk of sensitive data been compromised if extra care wasn’t taken.

In regards to Hse, everyone knows Hse is a shambles ... that’s a case of too many head honchos and not enough chiefs ... u can guarantee anyone on the ground is working .... if you think it’s such a handy pen pushers well paid job why don’t ya apply? Would love to see you “pen pushing” in a &e on a fri eve trying to get details off a drugged out tramp who’s arrived in with Stab wounds ...

In regards to porters... again... u be in here another day complaining that there is no clear instruction given to the public when they arrive into an office ...etc and by the way, porters get paid so little they be better on the dole

As regards bus Éireann and Irish rail... they have to provide transport to all of Ireland, even if it’s loss making routes ... as people will be complaining otherwise... people like you

So to sum it up.... can’t keep some people happy regardless.....

Anyways what u work at? Have u applied for a public sector well paid job lately?

almostover

I work in a high tech manufacturing industry and this attitude of pay rises in the public sector have been agreed and were expecting them to be paid given the current economic depression is ludicrous. The money simply wont be available in the economy to support previously agreed public sector pay rises. COVID-19 has changed the playing field totally. The exchequer returns from the hospitality sector will be decimated. How can the public sector push for pay rises based on previously agreed deals knowing the money wont be there to pay for it?

In my own company many operators have been at home on 80% these past few weeks as demand for our product went to near zero in the space of a few weeks. Management levels in the company took a 10% pay cut in solidarity with them. Many temporary contracts have been cancelled. Luckily middle earners like me have survived without pay cuts so far and with our jobs intact.

The public vs. Private sector has been an eye opener for me on a recent lean course I took. There was a mix of attendees from both sectors. The private sector workers were supported in implementing their lean projects. The public sector worked were met with resistance at every stage of their project. Unions were opposed to measurement of performance and any efforts to improve it. 2 people on the course who work in the HSE had particular trouble. One person was trying to reduce the turnaround time on blood samples in a hospital lab and was met with fierce resistance. There's a reason why we sink so much money into the HSE and get the quality of service that we do.

Fred Cryton

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

We don't cut anything? Have you not seen the Haddington road agreement? Public sector pay has been cut.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/benefitsservices/pay/sept2008.pdf

Here is the payscale from 2008:
Basic grade pharmacist: 37425

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/resources/hr-circulars/1-january-2020-consolidated-payscales.pdf
Payscale from 2020:
Basic grade pharmacist: 34077

And this is true throughout the HSE across all professions.

Edgware

purifol0 wrote: »

Lower it to minimum wage if need be. If she leaves for a better job somewhere else job great. And if the position absolutely needs to be filled again the pay should be adjusted to attract a candidate back to the role.



Public sector shouldn't be any different to private sector in this regard. The state should only pay for what it needs, not exist to give people cushy govt jobs for life.

Couldn't we get some Bulgarians in to do it?

purifol0

purifol0 wrote: »

You want to talk about ROBOTICS when we have highly paid pen pushers that still POST things to each other and everything is still hand written on paper. Even the driving license centres which were introduced after the last recession still to this day post forms all the way to Limerick. Oh they have broadband and a scanner at the desk, thats just not the way they do things.


Nurses union would strike immediately if a change in their work practices would take them away from filling forms all day at a desk.


I mean the PubSec employ porters FFS. A man that simply stands there all day saying which queue to join. How much do you think one of those would get paid in the privaate sector eh?
.

Is this really the level of debate we are down to now. Little more than a rant. Just making things up. Utter tripe. But keep venting if it helps you feel a bit better.