Public service pay cut?

GarIT

Deleted User wrote: »

You could but the description of the duties is broadly correct

Infrastructure management maybe/arguably have AP ICT roles that stay somewhat techy but developers stop at HEO higher pretty much

It could be different elsewhere but even in infrastructure, the most techy thing they do is negotiate with hardware or software vendors in my experience.

Ah theres value in good tech experience and understanding moving into the higher echelons tbh


Its just that good development chops and sector experience are worth more than they are valued at in the service, theres a case to identify and appoint ap developer roles that remain developers imo

GarIT

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah theres value in good tech experience and understanding moving into the higher echelons tbh


Its just that good development chops and sector experience are worth more than they are valued at in the service, theres a case to identify and appoint ap developer roles that remain developers imo

There have been calls for the last few years anyway to introduce a technology pay scale, the same way there is a solicitor, architect and engineer pay scale.

GarIT

GarIT wrote: »

There have been calls for the last few years anyway to introduce a technology pay scale, the same way there is a solicitor, architect and engineer pay scale.

Yep, and project management too- badly wanted skills to get that recognition imo and transferable across all depts pretty much

GarIT

GarIT wrote: »

Yeah I think you could save 3 years by starting at HEO but you have to have at least two years of experience to get HEO. There are much fewer available HEO higher scales, so you might get stuck at the non Higher cap. HEO isn't a promotion, it's a sideways move, got confirmation of that just a week ago when a promotion to HEO became available.

In theory you could get a double promotion to PO, but you have to be skilled in people management, project management, budgeting, purchasing/negotiating. A lot of tech staff don't have staff as most people in tech aren't willing to work for EO wages so it is hard to build up people management experience and they are unlikely to have experience with managing budgets and purchasing. So it's possible in theory but I've never heard of it happening. And still, you'd be out of tech.

I understand that it's a sideways move to HEO, didn't think that within the same department that they still had to do two years from talking to a friend who is a reasonably new AO.

Personally I wouldn't move to the cs/ps because I'd be taking a very large drop in salary for a lot more responsibility at even AO level.
Now if the CS/PS were to introduce a technical AP grade that might be a different matter

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah theres value in good tech experience and understanding moving into the higher echelons tbh


Its just that good development chops and sector experience are worth more than they are valued at in the service, theres a case to identify and appoint ap developer roles that remain developers imo

There is but in my experience most managers don't have them.
One section in a particular multinational that I worked in, only one of the team managers had a technical background, the rest had come from the old manufacturing section when it was shipped out to China.

So you basically had overpaid holiday approves and report generators in charge of a number of technical teams, who didn't have a clue about anything technical and couldn't even address customer queries at their level, and just got their staff to write the answers for them.

You could perhaps forgive this if they were any use at project management etc, but they even fecked that up by promising deliverables at ridiculous time scales and sometimes even for stuff outside their teams area of responsibility in order to try and look good.

AndrewJRenko

GarIT wrote: »

I understood it to mean, not considering cutting those who aren't working from home becasue they are essential. To only cut from those working from home, not that everyone working from home could be cut.

Yes, that's an accurate summary of his silly position, which is why I asked him to specify which IT sections or grades should be cut.

Hotblack Desiato

GarIT wrote: »

There have been calls for the last few years anyway to introduce a technology pay scale, the same way there is a solicitor, architect and engineer pay scale.

:pac:

Just over 20 years ago I found a copy of a report advocating for the introduction of exactly that - my then boss was one of the authors. It'd been written a good ten years previously...

BonnieSituation

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Anyone working in the HSE who has been at home this entire pandemic should be targeted for cuts, the teachers should get cuts,

actually any public body that remained fully functioning during this should look at who was at home and just how much they're truly needed.

Right, so we fire all of those people, then what?

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You want to target people who were working from home or organisations who allowed people to work from home? A bit twisted, no?

As if there's any logic to his argument. It flummoxes me that nominally intelligent people peddle this crap so often.

tayto lover

Why is this discussion even taking place?
There will be no PS cuts.

Geuze

tayto lover wrote: »

Why is this discussion even taking place?
There will be no PS cuts.

Correct.

It has already been negotiated that there will be a 1% payrise in 2021 and a 1% payrise in 2022.

Scoundrel

tayto lover wrote: »

Why is this discussion even taking place?
There will be no PS cuts.

Indeed and proper order too while the private sector was sponging around at home leeching 350 a week from government the public sector workers were at the coalface delivering vital services during a deadly pandemic.

NovemberWren

GarIT wrote: »

There have been calls for the last few years anyway to introduce a technology pay scale, the same way there is a solicitor, architect and engineer pay scale.

The solicitor pay scale - where can that be accessed. Is there a median charge for a solicitor's letter?
Even more, is there a median charge for a barrister's letter?

GarIT

NovemberWren wrote: »

The solicitor pay scale - where can that be accessed. Is there a median charge for a solicitor's letter?
Even more, is there a median charge for a barrister's letter?

It's a salary, they don't get extra fees for doing their job. You move up to the next pay grade each year.



State solicitor and prosecution solicitor (PPC)
33,370 – 35,885 – 36,606 – 39,755 – 43,785 – 46,862 – 49,927 – 53,010 – 56,086 – 59,145 – 69,012 – 71,507 – 73,988 – 76,477 – 78,959 – 80,392 – LSI 1 82,899 – LS1 2 85,415
Law clerk (PPC)
520.97 – 543.29 – 576.54 – 601.35 – 630.70 – 664.12 – 683.77 – 703.43 – 723.07 – 742.79 – LSI 1 763.09 – LSI 2 783.34
Higher legal executive (PPC)
49,845 – 51,303 – 52,756 – 54,210 – 55,669 – 57,123 – 58,578 – LSI 1 60,679 – LSI 2 62,776
Legal executive (PPC)
34,190 – 36,242 – 37,872 – 39,440 – 40,861 – 42,133 – 43,418 – 44,702 – 45,990 – 47,235 – LSI 1 48,409 – LSI 2 49,940

SouthWesterly

Geuze wrote: »

Correct.

It has already been negotiated that there will be a 1% payrise in 2021 and a 1% payrise in 2022.

Won't even buy me a cup of coffee after deductions.

Working from home 8to4 in a vital department. Obviously the misconception is I spent all day watching Netflix and don't deserve to be paid.

Dav010

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Won't even buy me a cup of coffee after deductions.

Working from home 8to4 in a vital department. Obviously the misconception is I spent all day watching Netflix and don't deserve to be paid.

Of course you deserve to be paid, do you deserve a pay increase though, and can the State afford it?

fliball123

Scoundrel wrote: »

Indeed and proper order too while the private sector was sponging around at home leeching 350 a week from government the public sector workers were at the coalface delivering vital services during a deadly pandemic.

ehhh sorry not all the private sector were on PUP ye cheeky feck. Remember there was still enough working to pay your wage so keep quiet keep your head down as there will be some really serious decisions to make in the future. Income tax has currently broken the laffer curve so even upping tax on the medium to high income earners will mean less tax take, there could also be a run on our Corpo tax with the OCED taxation measures been looked at currently. If this comes to fruition you boyos are going to have to take cuts again. The main reason being we will not be able to afford the current rates of PS pay and pensions same goes with welfare. We currently cant afford them so any fallout from covid, Brexit or new corpo tax regimes will have to be dealt with by cuts, personal taxation has already got to the point of being counter productive.

fliball123

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Won't even buy me a cup of coffee after deductions.

Working from home 8to4 in a vital department. Obviously the misconception is I spent all day watching Netflix and don't deserve to be paid.

What about the knock on effect of on your pension the private sector will have to pay for your cup of coffee while they cant afford their own. A bit of perspective pleaase

RGARDINR

fliball123 wrote: »

What about the knock on effect of on your pension the private sector will have to pay for your cup of coffee while they cant afford their own. A bit of perspective pleaase

That's why I think 1% is silly. I think most civil servants would prefer not to get the 1% this year or next but to get the extra 30 mins a day we have to work taken off and not to work that. 1% is nothing after deductions and I would certainly forgo that if I could work the 30 mins less per day. So wouldn't cost anyone anything then if we didn't get these 1% increase in our salary.

BonnieSituation

RGARDINR wrote: »

That's why I think 1% is silly. I think most civil servants would prefer not to get the 1% this year or next but to get the extra 30 mins a day we have to work taken off and not to work that. 1% is nothing after deductions and I would certainly forgo that if I could work the 30 mins less per day. So wouldn't cost anyone anything then if we didn't get these 1% increase in our salary.

I remember voting against LRA because of the implications on time and not money. The reason public sector pay is so low is that you are rewarded with time. Take that away, then what are the true benefits?

RGARDINR

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I remember voting against LRA because of the implications on time and not money. The reason public sector pay is so low is that you are rewarded with time. Take that away, then what are the true benefits?

True. Just maybe not the right time for the 1% increase that's all. Give the time back and then within 3 to 5 years the 1% then.

BonnieSituation

RGARDINR wrote: »

True. Just maybe not the right time for the 1% increase that's all. Give the time back and then within 3 to 5 years the 1% then.

Agreed.

As someone about to head back into the breach, I have to say, I will miss the 6:45 days of yore. Sigh.

fliball123

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I remember voting against LRA because of the implications on time and not money. The reason public sector pay is so low is that you are rewarded with time. Take that away, then what are the true benefits?

Sorry where are you getting public sector pay is low. If you compare to the private sector its higher if you compare to a lot of other public sectors in other countries in the OCED its higher...Get your facts right. If you mean its to low for you then by all means feel free to get a new job?

Scoundrel

Scoundrel wrote: »

Indeed and proper order too while the private sector was sponging around at home leeching 350 a week from government the public sector workers were at the coalface delivering vital services during a deadly pandemic.

Im gonna pull the not-sure-if-serious face here

I dont like public vs private rhetoric and i dont like frontline vs backroom rhetoric and im not too sure about even workers vs management rhetoric

all credit and thanks to anyone who had to work harder under pressurised circumstances during covid, public or private

no shame to anyone who had to sit it out, worrying about the future of their jobs on top of everything else that was going on

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

Of course you deserve to be paid, do you deserve a pay increase though, and can the State afford it?

We'll talk to the state about that- dont worry yourself about it.

Youll get a vote same as us when the time comes, id say

BonnieSituation

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry where are you getting public sector pay is low. If you compare to the private sector its higher if you compare to a lot of other public sectors in other countries in the OCED its higher...Get your facts right. If you mean its to low for you then by all means feel free to get a new job?

You're a solutions guy aren't ya?

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry where are you getting public sector pay is low. If you compare to the private sector its higher

Apples and oranges - private sector is heavily weighted towards minimum wage roles - retail staff, hospitality staff. Average comparisons are meaningless. Try comparing against comparable professional roles in IT or legal or engineering and public sector is much lower.

fliball123 wrote: »

if you compare to a lot of other public sectors in other countries in the OCED its higher...

Again, meaningless comparison - if you compare medics or lawyers or finance staff against other countries in OECD, it's higher, because cost of living, particularly housing , is higher in Ireland.

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

We'll talk to the state about that- dont worry yourself about it.

Youll get a vote same as us when the time comes, id say

So nothing to see here even do we currently have a 17Billion euro deficit. The state need to cut not give more to PS we cant afford it and if there is any blow back from job losses from Covid, Brexit or the new OCED tax regime that could blow our corpo tax out of the water you guys will be cut more severely in 08

fliball123

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're a solutions guy aren't ya?

Attack the ball not the man or is that the fact that I am right stick in your craw

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Apples and oranges - private sector is heavily weighted towards minimum wage roles - retail staff, hospitality staff. Average comparisons are meaningless. Try comparing against comparable professional roles in IT or legal or engineering and public sector is much lower.


Again, meaningless comparison - if you compare medics or lawyers or finance staff against other countries in OECD, it's higher, because cost of living, particularly housing , is higher in Ireland.

yeah and yet we were able to do 2 comparisons back in the naughties through bench marking to compare private and public sector wage..Apples and Oranges when there should and could be cuts but apples and apples when looking for a payrise.