Public service pay cut?

fliball123

Pogue eile wrote: »

Are you in some sort of warped logic trying to suggest that all Public Service employees are guilty by association with a couple of shameful cases?

Can I use the same logic and share a link to for example the Revenue's latest Tax Defaulters list and assume - using your perfectly sound logic- that all private sector workers are lying cheating tax dodging reprobates??

No but if the this poster paints all private sector as getting the PUP payments and sitting on their holes to get this when they were forced to stop working by a PUBLIC SECTOR based body called the government then whats good for the goose and all that. All I am saying is some in the Public sector get paid a lot more and actually make mistakes of such calamity it costs lives. Also there has been a hell of a lot more phuck ups in the public sector than a few. Also tax dodging how many teachers give grinds I am sure they all pay taxes thats just one do I need to start with politicians/unvouched expenses, toner cartridges. There is as long a list of tax dodgers in the PS it just doesnt get the same media attention

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

Now they are facts deal with them I understand you want to have a go at me. But these facts still remain.

fliball i don't want to have a go at you!

But i have pointed out a few times that your conflating of difficult economic times ahead- which we all would be wise to anticipate, agreed- is a totally separate thing to your own opinions and projections masquerading as fact, which you do need to be called out on for the thread to work


And in any case i set out did not seek to challenge your facts. Your "facts" are selective, narrow, coloured by projection, opinion, and almost entirely geared towards economic doom mongering with the target as public sector spending.

And i leave you to them. There are economics threads for that.

What i did do was -in a simple way, because im no expert at all tbh- set out that even accepting your arguments flawed as they are above they would merely be an input into a process.

A process that is built to withstand economic cycles and short term political pressures so that the apparatus of state continues to function through such times.

I simply don't think that your returning with a - forgive me- slightly rantier version of your same simple inputs is in any way a good response.

I dont claim that should please you. But its nonetheless the response.

Now, to go a level deeper- and this gets quite philosophical, politically-

Public services dont exist not to spend money.

They dont even exist to break even.

I think if you can start to see things from that point of view even a little bit you might gain a valuable insight.

But while you only post in this thread with - again, forgive me but someone said it and its fair- newstalk angles of simplistic attack, you contribute little and learn nothing and frankly it ill behoves you to carry on like you have presented anything of value that any public servant interest in an actual debate should feel obligated to respond to.

RGARDINR

RGARDINR wrote: »

That's why I think 1% is silly. I think most civil servants would prefer not to get the 1% this year or next but to get the extra 30 mins a day we have to work taken off and not to work that. 1% is nothing after deductions and I would certainly forgo that if I could work the 30 mins less per day. So wouldn't cost anyone anything then if we didn't get these 1% increase in our salary.

I wouldn’t refuse it although the time back would be more important to me.

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

No but if the this poster paints all private sector as getting the PUP payments and sitting on their holes to get this when they were forced to stop working by a PUBLIC SECTOR based body called the government then whats good for the goose and all that. All I am saying is some in the Public sector get paid a lot more and actually make mistakes of such calamity it costs lives. Also there has been a hell of a lot more phuck ups in the public sector than a few. Also tax dodging how many teachers give grinds I am sure they all pay taxes thats just one do I need to start with politicians/unvouched expenses, toner cartridges. There is as long a list of tax dodgers in the PS it just doesnt get the same media attention

You conflate the government with the professional public sector

Id argue thats just totally warped, but it may again be a lost distinction when you are - again, forgive me- ranting like this

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

fliball i don't want to have a go at you!

But i have pointed out a few times that your conflating of difficult economic times ahead- which we all would be wise to anticipate, agreed- is a totally separate thing to your own opinions and projections masquerading as fact, which you do need to be called out on for the thread to work


And in any case i set out did not seek to challenge your facts. Your "facts" are selective, narrow, coloured by projection, opinion, and almost entirely geared towards economic doom mongering with the target as public sector spending.

And i leave you to them. There are economics threads for that.

What i did do was -in a simple way, because im no expert at all tbh- set out that even accepting your arguments flawed as they are above they would merely be an input into a process.

A process that is built to withstand economic cycles and short term political pressures so that the apparatus of state continues to function through such times.

I simply don't think that your returning with a - forgive me- slightly rantier version of your same simple inputs is in any way a good response.

I dont claim that should please you. But its nonetheless the response.

Now, to go a level deeper- and this gets quite philosophical, politically-

Public services dont exist not to spend money.

They dont even exist to break even.

I think if you can start to see things from that point of view even a little bit you might gain a valuable insight.

But while you only post in this thread with - again, forgive me but someone said it and its fair- newstalk angles of simplistic attack, you contribute little and learn nothing and frankly it ill behoves you to carry on like you have presented anything of value that any public servant interest in an actual debate should feel obligated to respond to.

A lot of what I am talking about is in the here and now and is actually fact and once again the facts I have put up you have not bothered with any counter argument this is a site for discussion and while you come across of being enlightened its actually coming across as someone who cant look at the different facts I put up and counter them. Once again digs aimed at man and not the post. You can behove all you want.

So shorten it for you in case you got lost in the post

240Billion debt
17 Billion deficit
12.5 Billion of corpo tax under serious treat for the first time ever
Guaranteed higher dole queue when covid goes.

How do we reckon the PS deserve a payrise (above the incremental system) under the current climate again? Behove me please?

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

You conflate the government with the professional public sector

Id argue thats just totally warped, but it may again be a lost distinction when you are - again, forgive me- ranting like this

Look the government have their own little section in the hall of fame when it comes to scandals but they were not to blame for all of the different scandals over the last while. Just off the top of my head the following jumped out at me while they were being reported at the time.

Xray scandals
Garda commissioner /smear campaign scandal
Garda breathaliser scandal
Garda pulse / penalty point scandal
Cervical check scandal
Banking Crisis scandal - where were the public sector financial regulators/watchdogs?
Hep C blood scandal
Ultra sound / mammogram scandal
Lees Cross Scandal
Kevin Cardiff losing 3 billion and getting a promotion scandal
Siptu slush fund scandal
Bertie Ahearn too many scandals
charlie haughty too many scadals
Sinn Fein paper toner scandal
Politicians not there to vote yet a vote recorded for them scandal
Politician expenses scandals.
That's not mentioning the vast amounts of nepotism that is rampant in the public sector.
Carona Jabs scandals -Actually Corona there has been a few the information being given out has been p1ss poor


There has been scandal after scandal going right back to things like the mother and baby homes.


Yet everyone in the PS will get their increment it wont matter if their work practise has actually killed someone. This is the problem with the PS. There are some good workers in there but you work in a system that rewards clock watching anyone who goes above and beyond dont get recognized.


Anyone in the PS p1ssing and moaning about a small % of private sector workers who have been told NOT TO WORK getting PUP need to look at their own work practices first. IMO its a bit of a payback for when the last crisis hit and there was not one forced redundancy in the PS all golden handshakes and parachute payments

The last time i had a fella barking FACTS at me without in any way engaging beyond his own frustration it was because i had questioned the managerial abilities of rafa benitez.

I think i eventually stopped responding to him also

Now thats a little off topic but to get back on topic the pay agreement in place seems reasonable until we see what a post covid economic landscape looks like.

Id expect the availability of funding to govt will be quite radically different to how the global powers that be responded to the 2007/8 crisis

The govt here may also have learned lessons about cut cut cut not necessarily delivering the required services to the taxpayer.

So, given that the above is sorted for a few years, will we meet back here in ohhhh 2022, chaps?

RGARDINR

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I wouldn’t refuse it although the time back would be more important to me.

Exactly but I say if most civil servants were offered the time or 1% they would take the time. Defer the 1% for a few years.

If you offered us the option of 1% or prioritising making the scales fairer to the lower paid i like to think that we would en masse vote the right way

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

The last time i had a fella barking FACTS at me without in any way engaging beyond his own frustration it was because i had questioned the managerial abilities of rafa benitez.

I think i eventually stopped responding to him also

Now thats a little off topic but to get back on topic the pay agreement in place seems reasonable until we see what a post covid economic landscape looks like.

Id expect the availability of funding to govt will be quite radically different to how the global powers that be responded to the 2007/8 crisis

The govt here may also have learned lessons about cut cut cut not necessarily delivering the required services to the taxpayer.


So, given that the above is sorted for a few years, will we meet back here in ohhhh 2022, chaps?

I even shortened the points I wanted you to look at how can you pay ps payrises under the below conditions.

240Billion debt
17 Billion deficit
12.5 Billion of corpo tax under serious treat for the first time ever
Guaranteed higher dole queue when covid goes.


I take these all just take care of themselves so..Great why didnt you tell me your living in some parallel universe where debt and deficit dont matter


Where are you getting that its sorted. the picture will become clear when a lot of companies who are currently forced to close when they do not reopen this is going to have a significant impact on our monies coming in. While I think the corpo tax issues is a few years away the government need to be prudent and in the face of an unemployment issue which we will see when covid is gone and with the OCED actively looking to eat into our 12.5Billion a year in corpo taxes..Or are we going to do what we did last time and wait for the Troika to come to town and force us to implement change.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

I even shortened the points I wanted you to look at how can you pay ps payrises under the below conditions.

240Billion debt
17 Billion deficit
12.5 Billion of corpo tax under serious treat for the first time ever
Guaranteed higher dole queue when covid goes.
.

While these points are correct, yes, politically, it would be very difficult to cut PS pay rates now.

There is no appetite for "austerity".

It would be very difficult to cut the pay of nurses and doctors who worked in COVID wards.

Or to cut the pay of civil servants who processed thousands of PUP claims.

Even a pay freeze would be difficult.

tayto lover

Geuze wrote: »

While these points are correct, yes, politically, it would be very difficult to cut PS pay rates now.

There is no appetite for "austerity".

It would be very difficult to cut the pay of nurses and doctors who worked in COVID wards.

Or to cut the pay of civil servants who processed thousands of PUP claims.

Even a pay freeze would be difficult.

Pass no remarks.
It’s not going to happen anyway. Lads like him just like ranting.

Sultan of Bling

This thread was started early into the first lockdown as there was a lot of talk over possible public sector pay cuts and understandable so.

Now we know this is not going to happen and a new pay agreement has been voted in, the thread just seems to have descended into the usual private v public crap.

Probably time to lock the thread.

AndrewJRenko

Furze99 wrote: »

176 pages of replies within 24 hours - Oh Ho Ho, just goes to show how many public servants are on here and how touchy they are.

Have any of them taken any pay pain over the past 12 months?

They took the pain ten years ago with 6%-8% cuts to salary that still haven't been restored, so that's close to one full year annual salary gone over that time period.

Treppen

fliball123 wrote: »

No but if the this poster paints all private sector as getting the PUP payments and sitting on their holes to get this when they were forced to stop working by a PUBLIC SECTOR based body called the government then whats good for the goose and all that. All I am saying is some in the Public sector get paid a lot more and actually make mistakes of such calamity it costs lives. Also there has been a hell of a lot more phuck ups in the public sector than a few. Also tax dodging how many teachers give grinds I am sure they all pay taxes thats just one do I need to start with politicians/unvouched expenses, toner cartridges. There is as long a list of tax dodgers in the PS it just doesnt get the same media attention

Talk about over-reaching here.

Public sector not paying their taxes!!

Teachers giving grinds... actually that's a private sector issue as it's a private endeavour NOT a public sector one, plenty of non-teachers giving grinds too btw!!

Politicians' unvouched expenses isn't tax evasion.

Toner cartridges??? Don't know if that's a typical public sector thing, but I've never heard of it. Is everyone at that?

In any event your pay is where you pay the tax, I can't do any job in the public sector and 'not declare it' to payroll..many private sector workers have more control over their books than a public servant could ever dream of.

Hotblack Desiato

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry where are you getting public sector pay is low. If you compare to the private sector its higher

For comparable roles it's lower.

if you compare to a lot of other public sectors in other countries in the OCED its higher...

Well duh, private sector is too, and the cost of living here is high. Oh and it's the OECD. Accuracy is important.

Get your facts right.

The irony. You've been told the above dozens of times by now, but your posts continue to contain nothing but rants and ignorant nonsense.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

While these points are correct, yes, politically, it would be very difficult to cut PS pay rates now.

There is no appetite for "austerity".

It would be very difficult to cut the pay of nurses and doctors who worked in COVID wards.

Or to cut the pay of civil servants who processed thousands of PUP claims.

Even a pay freeze would be difficult.

I didnt suggest cutting pay I said there should be no payrises not until we know the extent to where the economy and our public finances are after covid is gone.

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They took the pain ten years ago with 6%-8% cuts to salary that still haven't been restored, so that's close to one full year annual salary gone over that time period.

Sorry most of this was reversed already and you have to pay a levy for a pension that us mere mortals in the private sector has to pay the rest for, when we cant afford our own.

fliball123

Treppen wrote: »

Talk about over-reaching here.

Public sector not paying their taxes!!

Teachers giving grinds... actually that's a private sector issue as it's a private endeavour NOT a public sector one, plenty of non-teachers giving grinds too btw!!

Politicians' unvouched expenses isn't tax evasion.

Toner cartridges??? Don't know if that's a typical public sector thing, but I've never heard of it. Is everyone at that?

In any event your pay is where you pay the tax, I can't do any job in the public sector and 'not declare it' to payroll..many private sector workers have more control over their books than a public servant could ever dream of.

Teachers - Grinds they dont pay taxes - The majority of people giving grinds are teachers.
TD/Politicans how many have been caught out on issues?
Sinn Fein toner cartrigges have a google there and you will see what it was all about.

fliball123

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

For comparable roles it's lower.



Well duh, private sector is too, and the cost of living here is high. Oh and it's the OECD. Accuracy is important.



The irony. You've been told the above dozens of times by now, but your posts continue to contain nothing but rants and ignorant nonsense.

So look at other OCED countries and compare the wage of their public and private sector very few have the public sector on more money.

Pogue eile

He's a bit like an auld dog with rabies that keeps coming back for more punishment

Hotblack Desiato

fliball123 wrote: »

I didnt suggest cutting pay I said there should be no payrises

In reality 1% is a pay cut.

fliball123 wrote: »

TD/Politicans how many have been caught out on issues?

What's that got to do with the public sector? Politicians are not public servants.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

So look at other OCED countries and compare the wage of their public and private sector very few have the public sector on more money.

Look at comparable roles in Ireland - engineers, ICT roles, lawyers and you'll see that public sector pays significantly less than private.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry most of this was reversed already and you have to pay a levy for a pension that us mere mortals in the private sector has to pay the rest for, when we cant afford our own.

Wrong again. The pension levy was not reversed. It was renamed as the Additional Superannuation Contribution and applies ON TOP of the existing pension contributions already paid.

You really should do some basic research before you go pontificating on things you know little about.

It is a very real, substantial cut to salaries that has applied for a decade now.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry most of this was reversed already and you have to pay a levy for a pension that us mere mortals in the private sector has to pay the rest for, when we cant afford our own.

The PRD has been cut, yes, but not abolished.

Instead of applying to all income, it now applies to wages over 34k approx.

It is now made permanent, and re-named ASC.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry most of this was reversed already and you have to pay a levy for a pension that us mere mortals in the private sector has to pay the rest for, when we cant afford our own.

Since the PRD was introduced, most PS now pay substantial pension contributions.

Normal PRSI = 4%
Superannuation = 6.5%
PRD / ASC = 10% on wages over 34k

GarIT

fliball123 wrote: »

How do we reckon the PS deserve a payrise (above the incremental system) under the current climate again? Behove me please?

The cost of things has gone up. On average everyone else's wages have gone up. Whether the country is doing well or poorly I still need to eat, save for a house, enjoy my free time etc.


a 2.01% pay increase by the end of next year is nothing, the cost of living will go up more than 2.01% by that time.

GarIT

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry most of this was reversed already and you have to pay a levy for a pension that us mere mortals in the private sector has to pay the rest for, when we cant afford our own.

With my pension contriburions I'd be better off with a private sector pension asuming market growth over the last 40 years matches the next 40.

My pension (Post 2015 rules) is now half my salary - the contributory pension. That literally works out to be a pension of less than 18k on contributions of 4-6k per year.



This isn't an average week but last week I had two friends and my dad try to convince me to leave. Two of my best friends, who graduated with the same degree, are earning near twice what I am. the only reason I stay is time, they are working 40+ hours and working on issues until they are done. I get to stop caring at 4 o clock on a Friday and not give a **** till Monday morning. I've also had some issues with depression and my Thyroid and don't think I'd get the same support in the private sector.

Treppen

fliball123 wrote: »

Teachers - Grinds they dont pay taxes - The majority of people giving grinds are teachers.
TD/Politicans how many have been caught out on issues?
Sinn Fein toner cartrigges have a google there and you will see what it was all about.

I can show you my public sector payslip right now if you like... Tell me where I can dodge tax on it?

Treppen

Geuze wrote: »

Since the PRD was introduced, most PS now pay substantial pension contributions.

Normal PRSI = 4%
Superannuation = 6.5%
PRD / ASC = 10% on wages over 34k

Kind of annoys me when ASC is stated as a pension contribution... But has zero impact on my pension benefits, it's thrown into the general pot like a tax on petrol.

I accept there is a pension crisis looming, but really that's mostly in private sector from people who couldn't be bothered.

The trident report on the new ps pension scheme found that new entrants will just about get out what they put into their career average pension.

If anything my PS ASC tax isn't needed to cover PS pensions if they're cost neutral (going by the report).

Private sector pension you can have any degree of control over where your fund goes. Not to mention a good few of the MNCs will contribute too