Public service pay cut?

I think the pension levy is slowly being wound down is it not?

BonnieSituation

salonfire wrote: »

You're welcome!

I'm quite happy to challenge and correct the myths and lies propagated by PS posters; this time in relation to the ASC.

Looks like bringing home the realization that their % contribution to their pensions is quite normal and not disproportionately hitting them no more than anyone else has hit quite the nerve!

Each subsequent post since I pointed out this fact has not even attempted to refute that fact.

You sure showed them.

Says it all when you're counting "thanks" on posts.

At least you're getting something out of it and tbh, isn't that all you want? You get the warm fuzzies riling up some civil servants.

Geuze

I am the first person to admit that PS pensions are generous.

I make the following points:

(1) current retired staff got a great deal, not having paid PRD
(2) the main superannuation conts are low (excl. PRD/ASC)
(3) I accept that even including the PRD/ASC, the contributions are still reasonable, although they do rise with wages
(4) the headline contribution rates are 6.5 + 10% = 16.5%, although yes, due to complex integration issues, and the ASC starts at 34k, effective rates are lower
(5) What I don't like is that some in the media give the impression that PS do not contribute to their pensions


I reject filliball statment that PS workers should pay the full cost of their pensions.

Vodafone staff may have a pension, that Vodafone contribute to, so as I pay my broadband each month, some of that goes to the Vodafone staff pensions, grand.

In the same way, some taxes should go to PS pensions.

Geuze

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Fairly meaningless unless you compare the benefits they get.

1/57th accrual rate per year

BonnieSituation

Geuze wrote: »

I am the first person to admit that PS pensions are generous.

I make the following points:

(1) current retired staff got a great deal, not having paid PRD
(2) the main superannuation conts are low (excl. PRD/ASC)
(3) I accept that even including the PRD/ASC, the contributions are still reasonable, although they do rise with wages
(4) the headline contribution rates are 6.5 + 10% = 16.5%, although yes, due to complex integration issues, and the ASC starts at 34k, effective rates are lower
(5) What I don't like is that some in the media give the impression that PS do not contribute to their pensions


I reject filliball statment that PS workers should pay the full cost of their pensions.

Vodafone staff may have a pension, that Vodafone contribute to, so as I pay my broadband each month, some of that goes to the Vodafone staff pensions, grand.

In the same way, some taxes should go to PS pensions.

Like VAT on kids shoes will follow John Bruton around, pre-95 pensions are gonna follow around public sector workers.

Also, what worker pays the full cost of their pension?

I also want to figure out does he think that PS workers hodul get a top up from the State Pension as well, or should they forgo that?

salonfire is, as is their wont, being either obtuse, selective or inventive with their claims as to what has or hasnt been the thrust of the wider debate or what was claimed in the specifics

And constantly changes the goalposts

Were were responding to the claims that we get too good of a pension?

Or was it the inference that we dont pay enough?

Or was it that nobody in the private sector gets a good pension?

Or that the rate isnt 16%, its 7.8%, no its a few %, no its never 10%, or whatever

i have no idea what the aim is, but i suspect by the intemperate language, the wide-ranging scattergun claims and the gleeful seizing upon complexity as error that nothing more than confusion and annoyance is the goal.

Strange behaviour imo.

salonfire

salonfire wrote: »

You're welcome!

I'm quite happy to challenge and correct the myths and lies propagated by PS posters; this time in relation to the ASC.

Looks like bringing home the realization that their % contribution to their pensions is quite normal and not disproportionately hitting them no more than anyone else has hit quite the nerve!

Each subsequent post since I pointed out this fact has not even attempted to refute that fact.

Your big victory out of all this is that PS staff are paying the right amount for their pensions?!

Holy ****, comrade welcome to the team. Can you let everyone else know, we've been trying to get the message across for years!

When can you start?

salonfire

[Deleted User] wrote: »

salonfire is, as is their wont, being either obtuse, selective or inventive with their claims as to what has or hasnt been the thrust of the wider debate or what was claimed in the specifics

These are the posts that started this thread of the conversation.

Treppen wrote: »

Kind of annoys me when ASC is stated as a pension contribution... But has zero impact on my pension benefits,

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It is a very real, substantial cut to salaries that has applied for a decade now.

salonfire wrote: »

The % of salary contribution to pension between ASC and superannuation is very reasonable and very common.

salonfire wrote: »

I am countering the myth peddled by public sector workers who give the impression they pay 15%+ in contribution and list out the headlines rates, just like Gueze had done.

Can't make it any clearer than that for you.

The two posts you quoted are correct and dont in any way as far as im concerned make the claims you seem to be countering

I cant make it any clearer than *that* for *you*

Gremlinertia

Don't get personal, stay on topic

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

Yourself and fliball turn up to every public service pay thread? Why such an interest?

And this isn’t just a recent obsession it’s going on a decade or more.

Its going on that long as the amount we pay on PS pay and pensions hardly went down in the years after the last crash and there was not one forced job loss. Now we are going into the same thing IMO that we are going to see a massive downturn. As for PS payrises (now) we will be asked to pay more in taxation for any payrise as well as the knock on effect for the cost of the PS pension for years to come.

Its just come out that the corpo taxation we are going to lose 6 billion a year

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/john-fitzgerald-corporation-tax-changes-may-pack-more-punch-than-covid-1.4538632?mode=amp

Now look at the environment in the country now, KBC following suit on Ulster bank leaving the country this is the start point for job losses that was inevitable. The tax take is going to be hit by both income tax and corpo tax and welfare is going to remain high as the people go from PUP to benefits and yet PS are getting a payrise. Its like the powers that be are living in a parallel universe that the country is flying it and we not currently the midst of Brexit and a Corona pandemic with a debt that will be up at 240Billion by the end of hte year and a current deficit of 17 Billion. So its not an obsession its trying to get people to face the reality of what is currently going on at the moment.

This is before we take in the effect of the decision our government has made to make refugee legal in this country from 8 years to 4 months we are going to be flooded with people coming here looking for their bit of welfare. This will have to be paid for.

For what its worth I think anyone in the PS if they have done a good job should get a pay rise/increment the problem is everyone good, bad and ugly get lumped in and treated exactly the same and pay rises for everyone.

Be interesting to see what the greater economic recovery looks like when the time comes to discuss public sector pay again in 2023

Bringing wider economic situation- and again i really do have to point out that most of what you demand attention for is projection, a snapshot of a particular viewpoint- before we see what a post covid landscape even looks like would seem precipitous before then.

Just as well the deal is done tbh.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

I am the first person to admit that PS pensions are generous.

I make the following points:

(1) current retired staff got a great deal, not having paid PRD
(2) the main superannuation conts are low (excl. PRD/ASC)
(3) I accept that even including the PRD/ASC, the contributions are still reasonable, although they do rise with wages
(4) the headline contribution rates are 6.5 + 10% = 16.5%, although yes, due to complex integration issues, and the ASC starts at 34k, effective rates are lower
(5) What I don't like is that some in the media give the impression that PS do not contribute to their pensions


I reject filliball statment that PS workers should pay the full cost of their pensions.

Vodafone staff may have a pension, that Vodafone contribute to, so as I pay my broadband each month, some of that goes to the Vodafone staff pensions, grand.

In the same way, some taxes should go to PS pensions.

Does my income tax or your income tax go to pay Vodafones pensions?? No it doesnt and no one elses tax does either. Is Vodafone a defined benefit or defined contribution pension? You also have the choice not to choose vodaphone as your broadband suppler and to stop paying for your broadband with them and the portion that would cover their pension. So your argument is null and void.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Does my income tax or your income tax go to pay Vodafones pensions?? No it doesnt and no one elses tax does either. Is Vodafone a defined benefit or defined contribution pension? You also have the choice not to choose vodaphone as your broadband suppler and to stop paying for your broadband with them and the portion that would cover their pension. So your argument is null and void.

Should employers contribute to their staff pensions? I think so.

Is the State an employer? Yes.

Therefore, the State should contribute to PS pensions.


By the way, I agree with many of your points regarding debt / deficits / fiscal sustainability.

I feel huge reforms are required in the PS, but not cuts in basic pay rates.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

For what its worth I think anyone in the PS if they have done a good job should get a pay rise/increment the problem is everyone good, bad and ugly get lumped in and treated exactly the same and pay rises for everyone.

A fair point.

PMDS is meant to be brought back?



I also feel this idea of "job for life" should be scrapped.

Poor performing PS should be laid off like anybody else.

AndrewJRenko

Geuze wrote: »

A fair point.

PMDS is meant to be brought back?



I also feel this idea of "job for life" should be scrapped.

Poor performing PS should be laid off like anybody else.

PMDS never went away. It has been in place for many years now. Increments are dependent on performance and non-performers are fired.

You gotta love how people think they're coming up with great ideas, when these ideas have been in place for decades.

blanch152

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

PMDS never went away. It has been in place for many years now. Increments are dependent on performance and non-performers are fired.

You gotta love how people think they're coming up with great ideas, when these ideas have been in place for decades.

It is not in place in the education sector. I don't think a teacher has been denied an increment for decades.

History Queen

blanch152 wrote: »

It is not in place in the education sector. I don't think a teacher has been denied an increment for decades.

I work in education. Very hard to do a performance review on a teacher in our system. What do you measure?

SouthWesterly

Geuze wrote: »

I am the first person to admit that PS pensions are generous.

I make the following points:

(1) current retired staff got a great deal, not having paid PRD
(2) the main superannuation conts are low (excl. PRD/ASC)
(3) I accept that even including the PRD/ASC, the contributions are still reasonable, although they do rise with wages
(4) the headline contribution rates are 6.5 + 10% = 16.5%, although yes, due to complex integration issues, and the ASC starts at 34k, effective rates are lower
(5) What I don't like is that some in the media give the impression that PS do not contribute to their pensions


I reject filliball statment that PS workers should pay the full cost of their pensions.

Vodafone staff may have a pension, that Vodafone contribute to, so as I pay my broadband each month, some of that goes to the Vodafone staff pensions, grand.

In the same way, some taxes should go to PS pensions.

You forget that retirees had their pensions cut with PSPR. Its reduced or gone now but it was a fair chunk of change every 2 weeks. It wasn't just for the high earners.

Sultan of Bling

fliball123 wrote:

Its going on that long as the amount we pay on PS pay and pensions hardly went down in the years after the last crash and there was not one forced job loss. Now we are going into the same thing IMO that we are going to see a massive downturn. As for PS payrises (now) we will be asked to pay more in taxation for any payrise as well as the knock on effect for the cost of the PS pension for years to come.

There was forced job losses in the last crash in the public sector.

Sultan of Bling

Sultan of Bling wrote: »

There was forced job losses in the last crash in the public sector.

And psycut, pension levy, increased hours, reduced sick leave, reduced annual leave and less staff doing more work. The public service had it much tougher than anyone except those who lost their jobs in the private sector. Many in the private sector experienced no cuts at all but still complained about the public sector.

I will not be as willing to accept cuts this time round.

Gloomtastic!

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And psycut, pension levy, increased hours, reduced sick leave, reduced annual leave and less staff doing more work. The public service had it much tougher than anyone except those who lost their jobs in the private sector. Many in the private sector experienced no cuts at all but still complained about the public sector.

I will not be as willing to accept cuts this time round.

You forgot to mention losing a day off for the King’s birthday. You really couldn’t make it up. :rolleyes:

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2011/mar/22/ireland

Geuze

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

PMDS never went away. It has been in place for many years now. Increments are dependent on performance and non-performers are fired.

You gotta love how people think they're coming up with great ideas, when these ideas have been in place for decades.

My apologies, I work in education, where it seems it has been paused?

Can I ask, is it used much outside the Civil Service?

Vizzy

Geuze wrote: »

My apologies, I work in education, where it seems it has been paused?

Can I ask, is it used much outside the Civil Service?

Used in Local Authorities too.

An awful waste of time imo.

What sanction or reward is there for someone ( like me) who has reached the top of their grade many years and has no interest in progressing further ?
It also creates all sorts of false expectations of what someone can achieve.

Bobtheman

They can shove any pay increase or decrease up their holes or all your holes.
High insurance, heath and mortgage rates in this country are what makes it impossible to to afford to live here.
Housing too.
And you idiots are arguing over public sector pay?.
Yeah that will solve everything!

Pogue eile

Bobtheman wrote: »

They can shove any pay increase or decrease up their holes or all your holes.
High insurance, heath and mortgage rates in this country are what makes it impossible to to afford to live here.
Housing too.
And you idiots are arguing over public sector pay?.
Yeah that will solve everything!

You seem to be able to afford the excise rates at the same time

Strumms

History Queen wrote: »

I work in education. Very hard to do a performance review on a teacher in our system. What do you measure?

How is it hard though ? Measure their ability to do their job.

1. Timekeeping

2. Appearance

3. Presentation skills

4. Use of presentation aids

5. Checking for comprehension

6. Class management / discipline

They would be ‘some’.

Hotblack Desiato

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Not so sure that would happen. After all the golden pension brigade voted to save themselves in 2009 and shaft the newbies.

Not true, there was no vote, negotiation, or agreement, the government simply imposed it. They are the only employer in the country with absolute freedom to change the T&Cs of their employees as they see fit.

Bobtheman

I really don't know why you bother desithou.
You won't win with these people.
All the information they need is available online.
They also lived through the events you are telling them about.
They are just enjoying wasting your time. Annoying you.
There are people who will always dislike teachers because we remained unionised or because some teacher probably rightly called them an idiot. School was not for them and they can't leave it go.

Bobtheman

Strumms wrote: »

How is it hard though ? Measure their ability to do their job.

1. Timekeeping

2. Appearance

3. Presentation skills

4. Use of presentation aids

5. Checking for comprehension

6. Class management / discipline

They would be ‘some’.

Yeah discipline makes me laugh. Basically nowadays we are told to just suck it up. A kid can tell several of his teachers to **** off safe in the knowledge he won't be expelled. So simply absorbing this **** is now a plus.
Jesus wept. Poor parenting =poorly behaved kids in your classroom wrecking the education of those whose parents bothered to rein their two kids in!!
I won't be commenting after this as it just goes on and on and it upsets parents to hear the truth. Not all parents bit a sizeable minority.