Public service pay cut?

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Its a known fact that very few if any in the PS are stopped their their increments. So you ask yourself the people looking after the smear tests no one knows who they are as there is absolutely zereo accountability and should of been sacked , same goes for the garda blowing into their own breathalyzers to falsify records and for commuting fraud by manipulating the pulse system. Not one sacking. But yeah nothing to see her lets increment and give pay rises while 240 billion in debt, deficit of 17 Billion and taxes plundering. But sure it will be grand the lads in the PS will be able to spend their pay rises and keep the boat afloat. its head in the sand stuff.

Of course no one knows the outcome for any individual. Their HR files are confidential as required by law. To spin this as a lack of accountability is delusional. It's not all about you.

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Of course no one knows the outcome for any individual. Their HR files are confidential as required by law. To spin this as a lack of accountability is delusional. It's not all about you.

Will you stop sure if there was a huge number not getting their increment there would be a strike for god sake. Give over I know its not all about me we are supposed to be in it together so you lads think payrise when we are already on the hook for so much its all about the PS obviously, you lads should do the next l'oriel add "because your worth it" Why dont you go to Janet Donnelly, Patricia Carrick, Emma Fixk, Emma Mhic Mhathúna gravestones or any of the other ladies who lost their lives due to phucks up in smear tests due to employees in the PS and tell them "your worth it" and that people were never accountable in the PS for them losing their life.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Will you stop sure if there was a huge number not getting their increment there would be a strike for god sake. Give over I know its not all about me we are supposed to be in it together so you lads think payrise when we are already on the hook for so much already its all about the PS either

Why would there be a huge number? There is about 300k staff in the public service.

But keep up the ranting,you might even manage to convince yourself one of these days.

Bobtheman

fliball123 wrote: »

We are all running the same race and jumping the same hurdles with regards to the cost of living.

I don't think I indicated othewise

fliball123

Bobtheman wrote: »

I don't think I indicated othewise

I know but its not something to bring up when talking about ps pay and pensions as we all have to pay it so its a null and void argument as we all have this cost

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

You love it.

Once again I will point you back to this when the cuts come. I dont love it. I just think it needs to happen a lot quicker than it will

Bobtheman

I'm always amused by public vs private rants
Firstly a lot of private companies could use unions like the public sector has but a lot of people would prefer to moan here than get off their arses and join one or participate in one. Too much on Netflix etc
The second thing is a lot of jobs don't have an equivalent in the private sector. Students are not my employees and have all the bleeding hearts on their side. I'm talking in particular teenagers who are old enough to know better.
The third thing is public sector pensions have been reformed and not as lucrative as before but there is scope for more cuts.
Bar the garda who risk their lives nobody in ghr public sector deserves a defined benefit pension.
But we should not play beggar thy neighbor.
We should work towards a system of mandatory pension schemes that generate pensions of at least 18k for everyone over 70.
I speak as a teacher. Unlike a lot of teachers I'm not married to a teacher so I have some idea of how difficult it can be to save for a pension.
But playing beggar thy neighbours is not a good idea.
As to accountability there is not as much in the private sector as you'd think.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Once again I will point you back to this when the cuts come. I dont love it. I just think it needs to happen a lot quicker than it will

You seem unusually focused on this one particular area of public spending when it comes to cuts. What other areas of spending need to be cut?

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

Once again I will point you back to this when the cuts come. I dont love it. I just think it needs to happen a lot quicker than it will

You will need to temper your excitement I don’t believe public servants will be targeted for paycuts in particular, there will be more general tax rises applied across the economy and perhaps a vol redundancy / early retirement scheme.

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why would there be a huge number? There is about 300k staff in the public service.

But keep up the ranting,you might even manage to convince yourself one of these days.

You and others keep saying ranting and none of you have come up with the solution to our debt and deficit and thinking its a good idea for payrises its ridiculous and you only have to look at the debt and deficit its already gaining traction from the ECB and others it wont be long till the gombien government are forced into it

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-31002476.html
https://www.davy.ie/research/public/printPdf.htm?id=publicsectorpay20170327_24032017.htm
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40040321.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53478404

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

You will need to temper your excitement I don’t believe public servants will be targeted for paycuts in particular, there will be more general tax rises applied across the economy and perhaps a vol redundancy / early retirement scheme.

I dont think so I think that approach saved very little for the exchequer last time and it was noted by the troika back in the day. So we are currently worse off than the last recession and could be a hell of a lot worse in the next few years and actual tangible savings will have to be made. I reckon the pension levy will be upped and there will be a 5%(which includes the 3% that was on the table for the next 3 years) cut. Savings are needed not taking money from column A and giving to Column B and saving feck all.

Hotblack Desiato

Strumms wrote: »

2. Appearance

Seriously?

There are many school principals with some deeply odd ideas about appearance, judging by the monstrous uniforms they force their pupils to wear - especially girls.

You think the headbangers who think enforcing Handmaid's Tale outfits on girls is okay should be able to reduce the pay of their staff based on appearance?

Bobtheman wrote: »

I really don't know why you bother desithou.
You won't win with these people.

I know, but if endless lies are left unchallenged they become the accepted truth. The Indo started this years ago with the "sold their colleagues down the river" lie and it is now accepted as truth by many or even most people. Then they started on the "let's make up a vastly inflated sum of money and call it a pension pot" thing, and recently the Irish Times has been parroting that one too.

There are people who will always dislike teachers because we remained unionised or because some teacher probably rightly called them an idiot. School was not for them and they can't leave it go.

I'm not a teacher, I'm in an even more widely despised group

fliball123 wrote: »

Yeah they appreciate it as if they dont play ball the unions have a gun to their head if there was no strike threat then there would be no payrises

These powerful unions which were bought off with a mere 1%? You wouldn't know whether to laugh or cry hearing this guff.

Fact is it suits the government to have an agreement in place as much as it suits the big unions, neither want to have to get off their ass and negotiate sector by sector.

BonnieSituation

fliball123 wrote: »

OK so just stop and think and put 2 and 2 together.

We are currently as of the end of 2020
240billion in debt
17Billion in deficit
Currently the cost of borrowing is low its at the lowest it has ever been and can only go up.
We will be losing at least 6 billion a year on corpo taxes and god knows what way unemployment will be after covid. So there will be further loses in income tax and welfare payments.
Brexit has still not affected us due to Covid and will give us a further kicking.
We have broken through the laffer curve for income tax take.
Any attempt of a solidarity tax will see more losses of both income and corpo tax as with the new WFH dynamic people dont have to be here to work and MNCs once we lose our tax advantage some will go and some will stop the growth that has been a boon to the Irish exchequer.

Now do you think the ECB will write a cheque for at least 23/24Billion (I reckon we could be hitting 30billion) each year for the foreseeable future to fund our spending???????? All this money is added to the debt that has to be paid and will be paid for at a higher interest rate in the future.

The math just does not add up unfortunately.

Look I know I might come across as a bull in a China shop but we just cant afford it and it will probably take the troika coming back into town to tell us to get our act together before cuts happen again so enjoy your payrise but there will be cuts in the future. I take no joy in this as a cut to PS means the country is on its knees as its always last on the list for cuts.

If the cost of borrowing is low, surely by that logic we should borrow a **** tonne at a low rate for infrastructure improvement?

Do you know how capital spending and sovereign debt and borrowing works?

BonnieSituation

fliball123 wrote: »

You and others keep saying ranting and none of you have come up with the solution to our debt and deficit and thinking its a good idea for payrises its ridiculous and you only have to look at the debt and deficit its already gaining traction from the ECB and others it wont be long till the gombien government are forced into it

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-31002476.html
https://www.davy.ie/research/public/printPdf.htm?id=publicsectorpay20170327_24032017.htm
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40040321.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53478404

Unless you're an Economist, and even then, your misunderstanding - and that's putting it mildly - about how deficits and sovereign debt operate, and your obsession with it makes no sense.

It's like a two-bit Colm McCarthy in Nesbitts putting the world to right, only less damaging, because you don't have the ear.of.anyone important.

fliball123

BonnieSituation wrote: »

If the cost of borrowing is low, surely by that logic we should borrow a **** tonne at a low rate for infrastructure improvement?

Do you know how capital spending and sovereign debt and borrowing works?

do you ???? Its low currently like nearly zero so it cant go lower meaning what Einstein?? It means as sure as night follows day and pay cuts to the PS follow benchmarking interest rates will rise the debt gets rolled over and refinance on a regular basis meaning that we currently owe 240Bilion at say .5% this year how much extra will interest alone be if rates even go up by 1%????

Yeah cheek of you borrow a tonne of money to pay for ridiculous expenses like pay rises to the public sector no thanks I would rather no pay rises and no more extra borrowing to pay for them. Same goes with welfare this needs to be examined and savings made where they can be made.

Imagine trying to run a household by the banana republic financing going on with this country.

salonfire

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Fact is it suits the government to have an agreement in place as much as it suits the big unions, neither want to have to get off their ass and negotiate sector by sector.

My understanding is that this approach is changing with the new agreement where a pot is set aside for targeted benefit improvements for certain sectors; and without knock on claims from unions.

Pogue eile

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Do you know how capital spending and sovereign debt and borrowing works?

Will you stop, he doesn't even know the difference between the Civil Service, other Public Service and Politicians.

Funny as fcuk to listen to though to be fair to him and as consistent as you could possible ask for.

fliball123

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Unless you're an Economist, and even then, your misunderstanding - and that's putting it mildly - about how deficits and sovereign debt operate, and your obsession with it makes no sense.

It's like a two-bit Colm McCarthy in Nesbitts putting the world to right, only less damaging, because you don't have the ear.of.anyone important.

OK explain I dont think you know your a$$ from your elbow??

This is how I see it
We have a 240Billion debt and currently 17Billion deficit so thats on a yearly basis (this will probably go as high as having to borrow 30Billion a year when corona/corpo tax and unemployment come through the wash of this pandemic).

Interest rates are low and the government has already rolled over a lot of the 200billion we were in debt of before corona to lower interest rates which is good but these will need to be rolled over again and the rates cannot go much lower meaning they will go higher the interest alone for our borrowing is going to cost anywhere in the region of 7/10Billion a year within the next 3-5 years.

You seem to think we can borrow on the never never or that the magic money tree - the ECB will keep flowering and throwing us money. Your deluded. At the moment we are fine as everyone is going through corona but once that is gone I reckon 2 years grace will be given and Ireland will be told to phuck right off with more borrowing as they are taking the p1ss with our welfare and public pay and pension rates which are high in comparison to the rest of the OCED, which by the way they did after the last crash and we already currently in a worse situation financially now than in 08 and its going to get worse.

So go on professor clever clogs what is your spin on this.

fliball123

Pogue eile wrote: »

Will you stop, he doesn't even know the difference between the Civil Service, other Public Service and Politicians.

Funny as fcuk to listen to though to be fair to him and as consistent as you could possible ask for.

And yet not one of you have tried to grapple with our debt, deficit, OCED/corpo tax implications, Income tax losses and welfare increases.

You all attack the post instead of the figures and if I hadnt got an answer I would be probably be doing the same.

Your talking bull I never opened my mouth about any options about CS/PS and politicians. Stop making sh1t up

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

. Stop making sh1t up

From the one going round making sh1t up about what did or didn't happen in certain people's PMDS!

Pogue eile

fliball123 wrote: »

And yet not one of you have tried to grapple with our debt, deficit, OCED/corpo tax implications, Income tax losses and welfare increases.

You all attack the post instead of the figures and if I hadnt got an answer I would be probably be doing the same.

Your talking bull I never opened my mouth about any options about CS/PS and politicians. Stop making sh1t up

Your figures are all bollo* as well, I assumed everyone knew that so I didn't bother to counteract them.

You have continously quoted incorrect figures with regard to our national debt and deficit, you were claiming all sorts of mad numbers regarding Corporation Tax, you stopped this once the actual projections were released and they were no where near as wild as you were throwing around.

Quoting incorrect debt figures and projections is bad enough but to not quantify them by comparing them to GDP displays a complete lack of understanding of basic economics that is laughable for the man with all the answers!

Your estimates that interest rates will rise to effectively over 4% in 5 years is Walter Mitty stuff and doesn't even warrant a meaningful reply.

And sorry I have no idea what 'corpo' is?? Is that your council bin charges or something?

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

do you ???? Its low currently like nearly zero so it cant go lower meaning what Einstein?? It means as sure as night follows day and pay cuts to the PS follow benchmarking interest rates will rise the debt gets rolled over and refinance on a regular basis meaning that we currently owe 240Bilion at say .5% this year how much extra will interest alone be if rates even go up by 1%????

Yeah cheek of you borrow a tonne of money to pay for ridiculous expenses like pay rises to the public sector no thanks I would rather no pay rises and no more extra borrowing to pay for them. Same goes with welfare this needs to be examined and savings made where they can be made.

Imagine trying to run a household by the banana republic financing going on with this country.

It's not down to public servants to foot the bill for others. How come that's the only area of public expenditure that you're looking at?

Sultan of Bling

fliball123 wrote:

No people were given the choice of redundancy they did not have to take it. If they didnt take it they just stayed working. There was no thought process as to who to keep a lot of skilled employees left and just to throw another carrot there were golden handshakes for those taking the redundancy as well as some being rehired back on contractors rates. It was insane

Incorrect.

People on contracts did not have them renewed because of the moratorium on renewing contracts.

They did not have a choice nor did they receive redundancy.

Bobtheman

I think we are eventually facing a **** storm on our debt.
But to listen to SF etc you would not know this.
We should only be spending extra money on housing,
Education and health. Big expenditure areas.
Yes lots of money wasted in health but you still need investment. Speech therapy for kids etc
All extra expenditure here should be paid with tax increases.
Something that at least the SDP /lab/greens admit

fliball123

Pogue eile wrote: »

Your figures are all bollo* as well, I assumed everyone knew that so I didn't bother to counteract them.

You have continously quoted incorrect figures with regard to our national debt and deficit, you were claiming all sorts of mad numbers regarding Corporation Tax, you stopped this once the actual projections were released and they were no where near as wild as you were throwing around.

Quoting incorrect debt figures and projections is bad enough but to not quantify them by comparing them to GDP displays a complete lack of understanding of basic economics that is laughable for the man with all the answers!

Your estimates that interest rates will rise to effectively over 4% in 5 years is Walter Mitty stuff and doesn't even warrant a meaningful reply.

And sorry I have no idea what 'corpo' is?? Is that your council bin charges or something?

Sorry Corpo or corporation tax. OK so its all b0ll0x right you can bring a horse to water but you cant make them drink

Debt levels
https://www.statista.com/statistics/270408/national-debt-of-ireland/

Deficit Levels /Unemployment / spending (up over 17billion) / income tax take (down 2 Billion)
https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/57243-deficit-of-19-billion-expected-in-2020-taxes-down-21-billion-expenditure-up-179-billion-on-2019-donohoe-mcgrath/

Corpo tax /Proposal which will take 6 Billion from or half our corpo or just for you corporation tax away and thats on an annual basis.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/john-fitzgerald-corporation-tax-changes-may-pack-more-punch-than-covid-1.4538632

Proposed Wealth tax - which will see capital and high earners running out of this country as the same people get squeezed to pay everything and are entitled to nothing for free
https://www.thejournal.ie/imf-wealth-tax-5402719-Apr2021/

So just to put in perspective our spend has gone up by over 30Billion in the last 5 years including and I am pointing out the 2 biggest areas of spend

Welfare spend gone up by 5 Billion
health spend gone up by 8 Billion

And our debt repayments have come down by 3 billion due to the rollover nature of how we pay debt and with the new historically low interest rate our government can borrow at and the government has used this rate on pre covid debts, but some here who think I dont undertstand debt/deficit fail to realize that this debt will have to be rolled over at some point in the future at a higher interest rate as it cant go lower and the likes of Germany were already calling for interest rates to increase before Covid
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ecb-policy-germany-idUSKBN14P0OE

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/stocks/news/ecb-will-raise-interest-rates-if-needed-but-shift-can-take-some-time/articleshow/80039030.cms?from=mdr

The above from the ECB is more or less saying rates rising - maybe not today maybe not tomorrow but soon and for the rest of our debt.

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/2021/

Have a good look in here for the b0ll0x you think I am talking as these are the FACTS if you want to challenge them or call it B0ll0x then talk to the dept of finance


Then we have stories like this

Imagine looking for a pay rise and being late this many times in the private sector. You would of been booted out the door
https://www.thejournal.ie/worker-late-wrc-4055842-Jun2018/

Absenteeism
https://www.cipd.ie/news-resources/reports/hr-practices-ireland-survey/2020#gref

No accountability.
I could go on looking at the many scandals - xrays, smear text, gardai whistle blowers and breathalyzer blowers, ministers not actual there but a vote cast for them (just one of the many int the political sphere) or in the civil service Kevo Cardiff losing 3billion on a accounting mistake and getting a promotion, etc etc etc ..How many got fired?? Answers on the back of a postcard please

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's not down to public servants to foot the bill for others. How come that's the only area of public expenditure that you're looking at?

Yets its down to everyone to foot the bill for public sector employees for payrise good bad or ugly?

fliball123

Sultan of Bling wrote: »

Incorrect.

People on contracts did not have them renewed because of the moratorium on renewing contracts.

They did not have a choice nor did they receive redundancy.

You mean contractors who are actually not full time employees in the public sector thats a different kettle of fish altogether.

Dav010

Pogue eile wrote: »

A 'fact' is defined as 'a thing that is known or proved to be true' let that be your starting point and see where you go from there!

'Corpo' is not a word by the way, please stop using it, especially when you have no idea what you are talking about and don't even seem to grasp the very basics of economics.

But does he/she have a better grasp of the use of punctuation though? 😜

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

Yets its down to everyone to foot the bill for public sector employees for payrise good bad or ugly?

Process for determination of same was set out for you several days ago

You've posted the same rant about 240bn six or seven times since

Safe to say your available material isnt up to countering the actual structures in place that have been explained to you

Pogue eile

Dav010 wrote: »

But does he/she have a better grasp of the use of punctuation though? ��

Better than what - the average bear?

Your question doesn't really make sense.